UK face coverings discussion

[SouthEastBuses]

Face Masks Really Do Matter. The Scientific Evidence Is Growing



I understand this thread is very much an anti-mask echo chamber, though the body of evidence is growing, and will continue to grow as research continues. I look forward to returning to this thread in six months review many of the comments and views in the light of new evidence and the progression of the pandemic. Meanwhile, I'm not investing any more of my time.

You see! Masks really do work to try and defeat the virus, or at least reduce this to a bad winter flu!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems like you're wearing either really large lenses or really thick frames. With the reading glasses I'm currently wearing as I type this {I've had cataract surgery in both eyes} the frame would have to be above my eyebrows to get nothing beyond them at the top while looking directly ahead, for example.

It's more about nose position and face shape. People wear their glasses different distances from their eyes as a result.

In any case, unless you're talking about checking bridge heights, upper peripheral vision isn't much use driving a bus either!

You see! Masks really do work to try and defeat the virus, or at least reduce this to a bad winter flu!

I hope so, but there is little evidence of that yet.

 

[MikeWM]

It's more about nose position and face shape. People wear their glasses different distances from their eyes as a result.

In any case, unless you're talking about checking bridge heights, upper peripheral vision isn't much use driving a bus either!

It was an example It's harder to find the equivalent point moving them downwards because your nose is in the way, so you can't keep them a constant distance from your eyes. I have further peripheral vision down than up, however (I think the eyelids are in the way upwards - they don't open quite as far as they used to without forcing them, probably due to the various eye surgeries).

 

[talldave]

Unless the broken methodology by which Covid deaths are counted they will inevitably rise again. Currently if you've ever been infected, then subsequently die from something else, that's a Covid death.
By that measure, the death rate from the common cold is 100%. The broken methodology means the Covid death rate doesn't really inform us of anything in terms of public health. Hospital admissions is a far more useful measure (and probably more useful than lab-confirmed cases).

Agree. Especially as an overload on the NHS is a breakpoint we don't want to reach - a lottery to get a bed would be undesirable. It remains a key, sensible, parameter around which we base our response.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I object to the idea that I'm being conned by the government into spreading unnecessary doom and gloom. I admit that I should have been more guarded in how I expressed the ONS figures I referred to.

[/QUOTE]
But you quoted

Modelling of the trend over time suggests that the decline in the number of people in England testing positive has levelled off in recent weeks.

With respect, stating that something has actually happened when the source you quote is based on modelling, not factual numbers, is speculation, not evidence.
We all know how accurate modelling has been in the past, particularly that of Professor Neil Ferguson. Not.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I was at the train station and onboard 2 TOC’s today, some observations of the problems that mandating masks causes:

Many people were not wearing them correctly (below the nose, around the chin), touching their face far, far more often, mtself included (I know I shouldn’t but it’s genuinely very uncomfortable and I have to adjust it every now and again).

BTP have a more intimidating presence and were questioning those without masks as to their exemption reasons (whether any enforcement or refusal of carriage happened, I’m not sure)

I heard a conversation about the masks today at the station and I heard someone say “young people can’t be exempt, if you’re under 50, there’s no excuses”, which is completely wrong.

6 households I know have bought a car and won’t be returning to public transport, they said they would have but with the uncomfortable masks they would rather drive and pay that little extra.

This mask law is certainly causing a lot of harm, whether it’s causing much “good” I’m not convinced, although I remain open to
evidence.

I'm sorry if I've missed something but I hope the BTP weren't questioning those wearing a lanyard - how would the person, exempt, feel at that? If people without lanyards on say they were exempt then I can kind of understand.

Given the complaints I've noticed about several not wearing masks, I can kind of visualise the train companies understandably giving up on this rule - are they really prepared to tweet (as in reply) everyday til whenever that they're here to encourage, not enforce (and that the BTP will enforce this plus regular station and onboard announcements will do this frequently) and say people are exempt?

Surely the TOC's are getting fed up of people complaining?

 

[adc82140]

Lanyard or not, there is no requirement to give a reason for exemption to anyone who is not a police officer, (or TfL authorised person?) at any time. If a police officer is asking people to give reasons in public earshot, that is cause for the officer to have their number taken and a formal complaint filed to their Chief Constable.

 

[DB]

Lanyard or not, there is no requirement to give a reason for exemption to anyone who is not a police officer, (or TfL authorised person?) at any time. If a police officer is asking people to give reasons in public earshot, that is cause for the officer to have their number taken and a formal complaint filed to their Chief Constable.

I can't see how they could reasonably ask on a reasonably busy train - somebody will almost certaily be within earshot.

Stations may be possible, but even then not always unless they are going to treat people like troublemakers and make them go to some interview place (and I wouldn't put that past them).

 

[adc82140]

Exactly. So they don't need to ask at all routinely. If there is something that doesn't look right (their words) then I would expect discretion.

 

[talldave]

Exactly. So they don't need to ask at all routinely. If there is something that doesn't look right (their words) then I would expect discretion.

BTP discretion is of the "bull in a china shop" magnitude. When my partner was confronted by BTP on a train, she was asked what her exemption was. When she pointed out that she's not obliged to discuss her medical status she was told "there are no exemptions" and told she would be arrested or fined. After her "OK which is it to be?" the BTP Officer walked away, to a lot of verbal abuse from other passengers who then removed their masks. BTP have lost my respect - forever.

 

[adc82140]

I hope you reported the officer concerned. They are there to enforce the laws of the land, not the ones they've just made up. This is not the sort of person the police want in their ranks. A friend of my wife's is an officer in the Welsh police service. I told him about your incident when you wrote about it before, and he was disgusted. They have all been told to take a softly softly approach to enforcement.

 

[LowLevel]

BTP discretion is of the "bull in a china shop" magnitude. When my partner was confronted by BTP on a train, she was asked what her exemption was. When she pointed out that she's not obliged to discuss her medical status she was told "there are no exemptions" and told she would be arrested or fined. After her "OK which is it to be?" the BTP Officer walked away, to a lot of verbal abuse from other passengers who then removed their masks. BTP have lost my respect - forever.

What strident heroes of the class struggle If my train became the scene of a heroic stand of civil disobedience to be spoken of every 2 or 3 days on a railway forum I think I'd be sorely tempted to add my own by declaring myself unwilling to be inside the tin can with the heroes and stranding them at the next station having downed tools under Worksafe

Do you guys not realise how this thread is basically stuck on repeat on a 24-48 cycle?

Someone recommends reporting any police officer committing a gross infringement of civil rights equivalent to resisting the emancipation of slavery by asking a question in public to the chief constable.

The next one shuffles up to pipe up sounding like Eeyore bemoaning the fact that they choose not to do anything anymore for fear of being hung from a lamp post for not wearing a mask.

Someone else pops up to say that they have an inquisitive and intelligent mind and are quite capable of judging the scientific evidence themselves, thank you.

Talldave turns up every day or two to remind us about his wife's heroic stand against tyranny on board a bog standard English train.

No one gives a damn what anyone with a differing perspective has to say thus rendering the whole discussion pointless.

I don't need to read any more of it, because I can pop back through the thread and read identical posts for the last few weeks.

In the meantime in the real world away from Railforums, most people are getting on with life, with or without a mask and not seeming to get particularly angry about it, just doing what they have to do, exempt, not exempt or whatever else.

 

[talldave]

I hope you reported the officer concerned. They are there to enforce the laws of the land, not the ones they've just made up. This is not the sort of person the police want in their ranks. A friend of my wife's is an officer in the Welsh police service. I told him about your incident when you wrote about it before, and he was disgusted. They have all been told to take a softly softly approach to enforcement.

I accept your point but I'm old enough to have an ingrained belief that complaining against police is a futile exercise. I have more venom for the muppets in government imposing illogical requirements upon us (e.g it's OK for a maskless police officer to bully a maskless passenger about mask wearing because the deadly killer virus can't be passed on by someone in uniform on duty).

I'm unfortunate enough to have not needed to travel because my job died of Covid so I haven't experienced the bullying first hand. But my partner's had these encounters on every (fortunately not too frequent) journey she’s had to make into London although the example cited was the worst as the officer switched to lying when the initial bullying didn't work.

In the meantime in the real world away from Railforums, most people are getting on with life, with or without a mask and not seeming to get particularly angry about it, just doing what they have to do, exempt, not exempt or whatever else.

Well I'm sorry for wasting your time, but some of us feel very angry about the UK's descent into a bullying police state.

 

[adc82140]

I think the response from her was excellent the first time round. Shaming the officer. I bet it gave them something to think about. Perhaps if it happens again try "do you always bully disabled people, officer? Would you tell someone in a wheelchair to just get up and walk?"

 

[johntea]

Apparently according to a Northern guard ‘the way you wear your face mask shows other passengers the level of respect you have for them’...erm what?!

The irony is despite all their waffling on they didn’t mention once anything regarding medical exemptions...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently according to a Northern guard ‘the way you wear your face mask shows other passengers the level of respect you have for them’...erm what?!

I think that's fair. If you wear it under your chin, you're clearly not exempt (as if you were why would you be wearing one at all?), you're just box-ticking rather than understanding the ethos of the measure.

 

[LowLevel]

I accept your point but I'm old enough to have an ingrained belief that complaining against police is a futile exercise. I have more venom for the muppets in government imposing illogical requirements upon us (e.g it's OK for a maskless police officer to bully a maskless passenger about mask wearing because the deadly killer virus can't be passed on by someone in uniform on duty).

I'm unfortunate enough to have not needed to travel because my job died of Covid so I haven't experienced the bullying first hand. But my partner's had these encounters on every (fortunately not too frequent) journey she’s had to make into London although the example cited was the worst as the officer switched to lying when the initial bullying didn't work.


Well I'm sorry for wasting your time, but some of us feel very angry about the UK's descent into a bullying police state.

I get that you are annoyed Dave but seriously - I've tried my best to inject a bit of sympathy, how I view the world as a transport employee and try and make it a bit easier for those struggling with what I fully accept is a big change because there is nothing more intimidating for someone trying to find out what things are like and sound them out than reading the same repeated doom and gloom when the reality isn't like it.

Instead it just gets drowned out by the story of the greatest passenger revolt since the great passenger sit in when Central Trains terminated the afternoon peak service to Hereford at Ledbury in 2005 or the great Sardine Can Protest sent in the mail to Tim Shoveller in 2008 by the good people of Warrington.

Yes I have indulged in a bit of a silly rant but there is a serious point - some people who are worried about going out might come here for a bit of reassurance and advice and instead all they're seeing is how the world might end if they do - it is unfair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I'm sorry for wasting your time, but some of us feel very angry about the UK's descent into a bullying police state.

There are some bad police officers, of course. But that aside, there is only any need for enforcement at all because too many people are taking the mick and are just choosing not to wear masks when they are not exempt. It is those people that people who genuinely need an exemption should be angry at.

It's exactly the same as disabled parking spaces. There only needs to be enforcement on them because too many of the British public are selfish and inconsiderate and park there when they don't need them, either because they don't have a badge, or because they have one but it isn't actually needed to use it (e.g. because the disabled person is in the car but has no intention of getting out of the car as the other person is going in the shop).

If you consider others before yourself, and if everyone did that, we wouldn't need any Police at all.

 

[trebor79]

I think that's fair. If you wear it under your chin, you're clearly not exempt (as if you were why would you be wearing one at all?), you're just box-ticking rather than understanding the ethos of the measure.

Entirely possible they ARE exempt but have decided box-ticking is easier/less stressful for them than dagger stares from other passengers and questioning from BTP or anyone else "official" every time they travel.

 

[talldave]

I get that you are annoyed Dave but seriously - I've tried my best to inject a bit of sympathy, how I view the world as a transport employee and try and make it a bit easier for those struggling with what I fully accept is a big change because there is nothing more intimidating for someone trying to find out what things are like and sound them out than reading the same repeated doom and gloom when the reality isn't like it.

Instead it just gets drowned out by the story of the greatest passenger revolt since the great passenger sit in when Central Trains terminated the afternoon peak service to Hereford at Ledbury in 2005 or the great Sardine Can Protest sent in the mail to Tim Shoveller in 2008 by the good people of Warrington.

Yes I have indulged in a bit of a silly rant but there is a serious point - some people who are worried about going out might come here for a bit of reassurance and advice and instead all they're seeing is how the world might end if they do - it is unfair.

Whilst a lot of my posts are challenging conveniently negative interpretations of stats/information which I consider to be unfairly feeding project fear, I have taken the time to post positive experiences of maskless shopping with a suggestion to try later in the day when the ratio of masked to maskless is less intimidating. If that encouragement gives just one person the confidence they need to get out and shop them I'm happy.

But I accept I'll always be in a minority group with my belief that the government's flailing around implementing measures that might well have a negative net impact on the nation's health for something that's not as deadly to the vast majority of the population as they would like us to think. It all went rapidly downhill when rubbish like "control the virus" started appearing.

 

[Huntergreed]

I just thought I would share some of the 'mask' advice from the WHO website on here, not necessarily because I agree with it, but as a discussion point:

Masks should be used as part of a comprehensive strategy of measures to suppress transmission and save lives; the use of a mask alone is not sufficient to provide an adequate level of protection against COVID-19. You should also maintain a minimum physical distance of at least 1 metre from others, frequently clean your hands and avoid touching your face and mask.

Medical masks can protect people wearing the mask from getting infected, as well as can prevent those who have symptoms from spreading them. WHO recommends the following groups use medical masks.

• Health workers
• Anyone with symptoms suggestive of COVID-19, including people with mild symptoms
• People caring for suspect or confirmed cases of COVID-19 outside of health facilities

Medical masks are also recommended for these at-risk people, when they are in areas of widespread transmission and they cannot guarantee a distance of at least 1 metre from others:

• People aged 60 or over
• People of any age with underlying health conditions

WHO recommends that people always consult local authorities on recommended practices in their area.

If there is widespread community transmission, and especially in settings where physical distancing cannot be maintained, governments should encourage the general public to wear a fabric mask. WHO also provides details on the composition of a fabric mask and how to safely wear one.


Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19. However, for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments – WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.


For countries that are considering the use of masks, WHO advises decision-makers to apply a risk-based approach to decide where, when and what type of masks should be used. WHO advises decision makers to consider the following:

Purpose of mask use: if the intention is preventing the wearer transmitting infection to others (source control) or to offer protection to the wearer against infection (prevention).

Risk of exposure to COVID-19 to the population or individual:

• Population level exposure measured by the amount of COVID-19 circulation in the community: that is, if there is known or suspected community transmission occurring.
• Individual level exposure depending on a person’s occupation: e.g., individuals working in close contact with the public (e.g., community health worker, cashier).

Vulnerability of the mask wearer/population: for example, if supplies are adequate, medical masks should be used by people with pre-existing medical conditions, such as chronic respiratory disease, cardiovascular disease, cancer, immunocompromised patients or diabetes mellitus of any age, or people aged 60 and over.

Setting in which the population lives: settings with high population density (e.g. refugee camps, those living in cramped conditions) and settings where individuals are unable to keep a safe distance (e.g. crowded buses or other transport).

Feasibility: availability and costs of masks, access to clean water to wash non-medical masks, and ability of mask wearers to tolerate adverse effects of wearing a mask.

Type of mask: medical mask versus non-medical mask. Medical masks should be prioritized for health workers, symptomatic people and their caregivers.

In addition to these factors, potential advantages of the use of masks by the general population in the community setting include reducing potential exposure risk from an infected person during the ‘pre-symptomatic’ period or if an infected person is asymptomatic (that is when they may not have symptoms).

There are potential risks and disadvantages that should be taken into account in any decision-making process on the use of masks:

• Non-medical or fabric masks could increase potential for COVID-19 to infect a person if the mask is contaminated by dirty hands and touched often, or kept on other parts of the face or head and then placed back over the mouth and nose
• Depending on the type of mask used, could cause difficulty in breathing
• They can lead to facial skin breakdown
• They can lead to difficulty with communicating clearly
• They can be uncomfortable to wear
• It is possible that mask use, with unclear benefits, could create a false sense of security in the wearer, leading to diminished practice of recognized beneficial preventive measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene.

This does, obviously, beg the question of how much of this is genuine advice and how much is due to political lobbying (which they have admitted to changing their stance due to), as well as whether or not it's acceptable for the world's leading health advisory group to change their advice due to political reasons, which I personally believe it is not.

Source: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub

 

[talldave]

Has anyone got the pre-political pressure version?

 

[Domh245]

Has anyone got the pre-political pressure version?

Here's the advice from mid-march: http://web.archive.org/web/20200316...of-the-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)-outbreak (the linked pdf is dated Jan 29)

Introduction
This document provides rapid advice on the use of medical masks in communities, at home and at health care facilities in areas that have reported outbreaks caused by the 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). It is intended for public health and infection prevention and control (IPC) professionals, health care managers, health care workers and community health workers. It will be revised as more data become available.
With the current information available, it is suggested that the route of human-to-human transmission of 2019-nCoV is either via respiratory droplets or contact. Any person who is in close contact (within 1 meter) with someone who has respiratory symptoms (e.g., sneezing, coughing, etc.) is at risk of being exposed to potentially infective respiratory droplets.
Medical masks are surgical or procedure masks that are flat or pleated (some are like cups); they are affixed to the head with straps(a).

General Advice

Wearing a medical mask is one of the prevention measures to limit spread of certain respiratory diseases, including 2019- nCoV, in affected areas. However, the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide the adequate level of protection and other equally relevant measures should be adopted. If masks are to be used, this measure must be combined with hand hygiene and other IPC measures to prevent the human-tohuman transmission of 2019-nCov. WHO has developed guidance for home careb and health care settingsc on infection prevention and control (IPC) strategies for use when infection with 2019-nCoV is suspected.
Wearing medical masks when not indicated may cause unnecessary cost, procurement burden and create a false sense of security that can lead to neglecting other essential measures such as hand hygiene practices. Furthermore, using a mask incorrectly may hamper its effectiveness to reduce the risk of transmission.

Community setting
Individuals without respiratory symptoms should:
- avoid agglomerations and frequency of closed crowded spaces;
- maintain distance of at least 1 meter from any individual with 2019-nCoV respiratory symptoms (e.g., coughing, sneezing);
- perform hand hygiene frequently, using alcohol-based hand rub if hands are not visibly soiled or soap and water when hands are visibly soiled;
- if coughing or sneezing cover nose and mouth with flexed elbow or paper tissue, dispose of tissue immediately after use and perform hand hygiene;
- refrain from touching mouth and nose;
- a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons. However, masks might be worn in some countries according to local cultural habits. If masks are used, best practices should be followed on how to wear, remove, and dispose of them and on hand hygiene action after removal (see below advice regarding appropriate mask management).
Individuals with respiratory symptoms should:
- wear a medical mask and seek medical care if experiencing fever, cough and difficulty breathing, as soon as possible or in accordance with to local protocols;
- follow the below advice regarding appropriate mask management.
..
Sections with guidance for home care and health care facilities removed from quote for brevity
..
Masks management
If medical masks are worn, appropriate use and disposal is essential to ensure they are effective and to avoid any increase in risk of transmission associated with the incorrect use and disposal of masks.
The following information on correct use of medical masks derives from the practices in health-care settings(d) :
- place mask carefully to cover mouth and nose and tie securely to minimise any gaps between the face and the mask;
- while in use, avoid touching the mask;
- remove the mask by using appropriate technique (i.e. do not touch the front but remove the lace from behind);
- after removal or whenever you inadvertently touch a used mask, clean hands by using an alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water if visibly soiled
- replace masks with a new clean, dry mask as soon as they become damp/humid; - do not re-use single-use masks; - discard single-use masks after each use and dispose of them immediately upon removal.

Cloth (e.g. cotton or gauze) masks are not recommended under any circumstance.

----
(a) Infection prevention and control of epidemic- and pandemic-prone acute respiratory infections in health care. World Health Organization. (2014). Available at https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/174652
(d) Infection prevention and control of epidemic- and pandemicprone acute respiratory infections in health care. World Health Organization. (2014). Organization. https://apps.who.int/iris/handle /10665/112656

 

[trebor79]

That WHO advice is ridiculous. How can they advise governments to recommend fabric mask usage, then in the very next sentence say " Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19". The rest of the document just reads like a total fudge to kowtow to political pressure.
We do indeed see the effect they describe in the final passage hapening in real life " It is possible that mask use, with unclear benefits, could create a false sense of security in the wearer, leading to diminished practice of recognized beneficial preventive measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene. "

At no point do they explain what has changed to go from their original stance of "cloth (ie cotton or gauze) masks are not recommended under any circumstance" to this fudged nonsense.

 

[LAX54]

That's a good point.
In fact hospital admissions remain at very low levels. Perhaps as a nation we need to lose the obsession with case numbers and look at hospital admissions?
Whilst looking at this data, I've spotted something a bit odd. Wales hospital admissions have been almost equal to England for the past week or so. But the number of daily cases in Wales is an order of magnitude lower. Why would the hospitalisation rate in Wales be 10x that in England? IS it still ripping through care homes there or is something else going on?

Were they always not a fairly 'low' level ? with many Hospitals not used at all, we had the Nightingale's built, and then stood unused, as others have said, the fall out from this will be far greater than the virus if we keep going as we are...running away from it !

 

[MikeWM]

I think that's fair. If you wear it under your chin, you're clearly not exempt (as if you were why would you be wearing one at all?), you're just box-ticking rather than understanding the ethos of the measure.

I'm sure I've pointed out already that some people, such as myself, can wear one for a short period of time, but not an extended period. Such people may choose to take one with them, 'put it up' when they think people are watching and 'put it down' otherwise, just to avoid hassle. I was doing that for a while.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure I've pointed out already that some people, such as myself, can wear one for a short period of time, but not an extended period. Such people may choose to take one with them, 'put it up' when they think people are watching and 'put it down' otherwise, just to avoid hassle. I was doing that for a while.

Wearing it under your chin is not good, a few people have pointed out it hugely increases risk of contaminating it. You are best removing it completely (touching the ear loops only and perhaps carrying something to place it inside) if not wearing it.

 

[MikeWM]

Wearing it under your chin is not good, a few people have pointed out it hugely increases risk of contaminating it. You are best removing it completely (touching the ear loops only and perhaps carrying something to place it inside) if not wearing it.

I'm not doing it anymore. I'm pointing out why people may do it, and that you can't draw any useful conclusions about whether they are exempt or not as a result.

 

[Bantamzen]

I just thought I would share some of the 'mask' advice from the WHO website on here, not necessarily because I agree with it, but as a discussion point:



This does, obviously, beg the question of how much of this is genuine advice and how much is due to political lobbying (which they have admitted to changing their stance due to), as well as whether or not it's acceptable for the world's leading health advisory group to change their advice due to political reasons, which I personally believe it is not.

Source: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub

I think its way beyond obvious for anyone willing to sit up and take notice that maskisivm is behind increasingly fragmented approaches to dealing with the virus' consequences, and virtue signalling is seemingly way more important than tackling the heart of the problem. This use-but-don't-use approach from the WHO, along with some suggestion from at least one BBC reporter than political, not scientific pressure seems to be behind their reluctant shuffle in stance.

 

[Richard Scott]

Related to topic but a digression really. Know a few people have said they will only shop online, don't forget some well known online shopping sites do have a charity option so some money goes to a cause of your choice. There are railway options but plenty of other worthy causes. I've just signed up. If this is in wrong place please move mods.