UK face coverings discussion

[bramling]

The mistake you’re both making is trying to apply any degree of intelligence, or critical thinking, to the current situation.

Give it up - it only drives you crazy.

There’s certainly places who are taking that line - Bridgnorth Cliff Railway for one. They’ve had some snotty reviews on trip adviser, including one from yours truly!

 

[35B]

Japan? One of the world’s most oppressively homogeneous societies (which retains the death penalty). Taiwan is, to all intents and purposes, part of China these days, unless I’m much mistaken?! South Korea imposes conscription upon young/military age males.

These are not exactly benign, benevolent, democracies, unless you’re smoking something rather more potent than I am?!



China (executes more people than any other country), Thailand (imposes execution for drug smuggling), Singapore (imposes judicial caning for dropping chewing gum and other offences).

Do you really aspire to live in these kinds of societies?

Without defending any of these states or their approaches, I think you may find that classifying Taiwan as part of China is a pretty fundamental error of classification.

 

[43066]

Most of my shopping is from Aldi or Lidl

But my wine and cheese does come from further afield...

Good stuff. There’s nothing like a good raclette when you’re a-skiing. Not that we can do anything like that again, anytime soon! But that’s probably for the best given how utterly terrible I am at it.

There’s certainly places who are taking that line - Bridgnorth Cliff Railway for one. They’ve had some snotty reviews on trip adviser, including one from yours truly!

The Isle of Wight steam railway got similar from me recently, I’m afraid. Not for all aspects of their operation, but certainly for some of it.

 

[birchesgreen]

Taiwan is, to all intents and purposes, part of China these days, unless I’m much mistaken?! South Korea imposes conscription upon young/military age males.

Calling Taiwan just part of China might go down not so well in some parts of Taipei (even if officially they are the ROC). As for South Korea having conscription, you've heard of North Korea yeah?

 

[35B]

Legislation, when read in conjunction with relevant guidance, absolutely *is* the law.

I suspect these comments will be wasted on here, but can I suggest you google the following:

The divine right of kings (BoJo isn’t delivering the goods, over this exact question);

Charles 1st (he somewhat lost his head over this exact question);

Oliver Cromwell (his body was exhumed, and hanged, over this exact question)

Cavaliers v. Roundheads;

Richard Cromwell;

Sovereignty of parliament;

Rump Parliament;

Hansard

I'm not sure what any of those have to do with the current situation; to compare the approach of this government to this one issue with that of Charles I to the basic role of Parliament in anything is more than a little bit of a stretch.

 

[43066]

Without defending any of these states or their approaches, I think you may find that classifying Taiwan as part of China is a pretty fundamental error of classification.

I think you might find China disagrees with that analysis!

Calling Taiwan just part of China might go down not so well in some parts of Taipei (even if officially they are the ROC). As for South Korea having conscription, you've heard of North Korea yeah?

Yep, I’ve heard of North Korea. I’ve even been to the border between south and North Korea, and seen it for myself, but thanks for reminding me it exists.

The point was that these are not societies I would wish to live in.

I'm not sure what any of those have to do with the current situation; to compare the approach of this government to this one issue with that of Charles I to the basic role of Parliament in anything is more than a little bit of a stretch.

If you’re unsure I would respectfully suggest that you read up a little further on these matters. The point (apparently lost in translation) was that the current government is behaving as if Bozza retains the divine right of kings.

If you disagree with that statement - that’s fine - but at least come back with something interesting. Why is it a stretch for me to say that?

 

[island]

The equalities act might trouble you somewhat.

Go on then, which section says you aren’t allowed to ask someone about their disability? I’ll wait.

 

[trebor79]

So my question again: Why is the virus far less prevalent in Taiwan, which is not a police state? If this is not because of masks, perhaps the reason is because they care more about their fellow citizens and less about their "freedom" (without responsibility)? Either way, it does not portrait "liberal western democracies" in a good light ...

What sort of testing regime do they have? Are they taking swabs from every Tom Dick and Harry with a cold and then performing a 45 stage PCR to pick up fragments of other diseases or historical covid infection and labelling this as a "case"?

Your source? Or is this just what you believe?
The droplet as a whole does not evaporate. The virus is heavier than air and does not float in the air. Only condition where this happens is in aerosols (source: https://www.tmc.edu/news/2020/07/can-the-coronavirus-spread-through-the-air/).

Dust is heavier than air but can stay suspended in air for a very long time and get dispersed a very long way, unless the air is absolutely still.
Even something as big and heavy as a dandelion seed will travel a very long distance.

 

[43066]

Go on then, which section says you aren’t allowed to ask someone about their disability? I’ll wait.

No one section says that, but asking that question, in the first place, spectacularly misses the point. You need to think more pragmatically.

I suggest you look at the act and decide for yourself which parts of it might make either of the below approaches problematic:

As an HR professional, implementing a policy that could be construed as indirectly discriminating against disabled employees.

As a service provider, instructing your employees to behave in a manner which might amount to indirect discrimination against disabled potential customers.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I'm told Solihull Police PCSO's are in Touchwood Shopping Centre today telling people they must be wearing a card to say they are exempt.
Shocking and completely disguising. Officers are completely refusing to except the words "I'm exempt". Demanding that if they are exempt they needed to have filled in a form to say they are exempt and produce it to them at that moment.

Tweet from Solihull Touchwood Shopping Centre below is just as dreadful

https://twitter.com/TouchwoodTweets/status/1292376784034500613

Thats despite the fact anyone can buy/print a card like that, so I don't believe it holds any more weight than the words "I'm excempt".

Reply to shopping centre:
It’s exactly this kind of authoritarian attitude, making bogus claims about the law, that is driving asthmatic shoppers away. We have alternatives. Online retail will kill your shopping centre faster than Covid... touch wood

 

[Yew]

Dust is heavier than air but can stay suspended in air for a very long time and get dispersed a very long way, unless the air is absolutely still.
Even something as big and heavy as a dandelion seed will travel a very long distance.

Early on I did wonder about using room ionisers or ozone generators to try and reduce the residence time of aerosol droplets. I wonder if any studies have been undertaken to look at this?

 

[trebor79]

Early on I did wonder about using room ionisers or ozone generators to try and reduce the residence time of aerosol droplets. I wonder if any studies have been undertaken to look at this?

Well ozone isn't really something you want to be breathing in. I'm also not certain it's effective against a virus.
Ionisers are snake oil.

 

[yorkie]

This sounds authoritarian and confrontational

Coronavirus safety marshals will monitor customers' masks at York supermarket

COVID-19 marshals will be stationed on the doors of Asda supermarket to ensure customers wear masks properly.

www.yorkpress.co.uk

If customers are not wearing masks in store, they will be told they can buy a pack of disposable masks and pay for them as part of their shopping trip.

And for staff, it's unclear if this is legal:

Following the recent change in Government guidance, all Asda store colleagues in England, Wales and Scotland will now wear a covering while at work unless they have a medical exemption, the supermarket added.

Anyone work for ASDA able to confim if they are asking for proof of "medical exemption" and are they actually excluding the other reasons why people are exempt from wearing a face covering?

 

[Yew]

Well ozone isn't really something you want to be breathing in. I'm also not certain it's effective against a virus.
Ionisers are snake oil.

I was thinking more in terms of facilitating the precipitation of aerosols. There seems to be some evidence that ionisers have an effect on reducing Influenza for example here, however obviously those which proport unspecified medical benefits are quackery.

Regarding Ozone, it seems useful to reduce smells, however my reference to it was mainly due to being unable to remember which way around each one was.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

When by rights, it should (if disposable variety) go in the bin each time

on the plus side, 'scientists' are saying that catching the bug from a hard surface is now it seems very very minimal ! (cardboard boxes had already been dismissed a couple of months ago)

Well that’s good to know, because the volume of Amazon orders, in cardboard boxes of all shapes & sizes, sent via Royal Mail are at Christmas levels on a daily basis and I’d hate to think we’ve been spreading the virus around the country !!

 

[LAX54]

Well that’s good to know, because the volume of Amazon orders, in cardboard boxes of all shapes & sizes, sent via Royal Mail are at Christmas levels on a daily basis and I’d hate to think we’ve been spreading the virus around the country !!

Assuming it's true, the way the 'facts' change by the day, sometimes by the hour, this time next week, the bug will be spread by boxes and hard surfaces, and the droplets in the air method will have been deemed incorrect ! lol

 

[westv]

If the chance of catching the virus from hard surfaces is minimal why are we being told to wash our hands as often as possible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reply to shopping centre:
It’s exactly this kind of authoritarian attitude, making bogus claims about the law, that is driving asthmatic shoppers away. We have alternatives. Online retail will kill your shopping centre faster than Covid... touch wood

You will probably find that the majority of customers are in favour of, not against, this measure. So it is good for business. Even if it's not on the basis of supporting the effect of masks and is more about "if I am going to put myself out to wear one I am sure I want them to make sure others do as well".

This Forum is bizarre over COVID, it does not follow majority public opinion in almost any aspect.

Assuming it's true, the way the 'facts' change by the day, sometimes by the hour, this time next week, the bug will be spread by boxes and hard surfaces, and the droplets in the air method will have been deemed incorrect ! lol

It's a new virus. Our understanding develops by the day.

 

[yorkie]

You will probably find that the majority of customers are in favour of, not against, this measure. So it is good for business. Even if it's not on the basis of supporting the effect of masks and is more about "if I am going to put myself out to wear one I am sure I want them to make sure others do as well".

This Forum is bizarre over COVID, it does not follow majority public opinion in almost any aspect.

really? People at my workplace have a similar range of views to forum members.

Who do you talk to?

YouGov polls are done by furloughed/retired/work from home types. Not ordinary working people.

 

[35B]

I think you might find China disagrees with that analysis!

I pref to consider the Taiwanese identity over that which the PRC wish to impose.

Yep, I’ve heard of North Korea. I’ve even been to the border between south and North Korea, and seen it for myself, but thanks for reminding me it exists.

The point was that these are not societies I would wish to live in.

Me neither, but I’d prefer Japan, ROK, ROC, or Singapore to DPRK by many orders of magnitude.

If you’re unsure I would respectfully suggest that you read up a little further on these matters. The point (apparently lost in translation) was that the current government is behaving as if Bozza retains the divine right of kings.

If you disagree with that statement - that’s fine - but at least come back with something interesting. Why is it a stretch for me to say that?

I spent plenty of time at school and university studying British political history, and am well aware that you were pointing at the divine right of kings, and that you were making a comparison to the behaviour of the current government. The difference, however, is equally great. The government try to ignore and bypass Parliament (extending a long and ignoble tradition of governments of the last 40+ years), but are subject to it and accept that. Charles I did not, and went a lot further in trying to evade Parliament, so much so that he provoked not just civilised muttering but outright insurrection. They are chalk and cheese.

 

[jtuk]

really? People at my workplace have a similar range of views to forum members.

Who do you talk to?

YouGov polls are done by furloughed/retired/work from home types. Not ordinary working people.

They are also quite clearly manipulated, as can be found by looking through Dolan's tweets from late August, which is not surprising given their links to certain government ministers

 

[bramling]

really? People at my workplace have a similar range of views to forum members.

Who do you talk to?

YouGov polls are done by furloughed/retired/work from home types. Not ordinary working people.

Same at my work. People are sick of it, utterly sick of it, and most just want to take their chances and get to as near to normal as possible.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yep, I’ve heard of North Korea. I’ve even been to the border between south and North Korea, and seen it for myself, but thanks for reminding me it exists.

The point was that these are not societies I would wish to live in.

Sure but i just thought it was a bit unfair criticising a country for conscription when they have such an existential threat on their borders (and indeed a capital city within range of one of the largest artillery forces in the world!)

YouGov polls are done by furloughed/retired/work from home types. Not ordinary working people.

Here we go, the prejudice against working from home "types" again. What type am i btw?

Still at least you didn't put "working".

 

[scotrail158713]

This sounds authoritarian and confrontational

Coronavirus safety marshals will monitor customers' masks at York supermarket

COVID-19 marshals will be stationed on the doors of Asda supermarket to ensure customers wear masks properly.

www.yorkpress.co.uk

I’ve got no issue with that, if that is all they’re doing. (Ensuring customers wear face masks properly) The amount of mis-worn masks about is incredibly high.
I’ll add that I’m completely against them going any further than that though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sounds authoritarian and confrontational

It needs to be, because people are not complying. Do you object to ticket checks on the railway?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

You will probably find that the majority of customers are in favour of, not against, this measure. So it is good for business. Even if it's not on the basis of supporting the effect of masks and is more about "if I am going to put myself out to wear one I am sure I want them to make sure others do as well".

This Forum is bizarre over COVID, it does not follow majority public opinion in almost any aspect.

How many people, especially on trains/tube in London, are complying with the face covering laws in only a token way? They may have the loops around one ear, or the mask under the chin, or over the mouth only. This tells me they hate the idea but are only making a token effort to avoid confrontation. If there was 95% contentment about protecting others, people would make the effort to wear them properly

 

[yorkie]

It needs to be, because people are not complying. Do you object to ticket checks on the railway?

Hardly a valid comparison. Are you saying exemption cards/certificates are compulsory? Or are you saying a ticket check should consist of "do you have a ticket"? If yes move on to the next person.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Currently onboard a Southern 377/6. To make you guys happy, our train guard said:

"Face coverings are compulsory unless you are exempt"

At least some train guards are trying to be respectful to those who are legally exempt

 

[DustyBin]

really? People at my workplace have a similar range of views to forum members.

Who do you talk to?

YouGov polls are done by furloughed/retired/work from home types. Not ordinary working people.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of the public support these measures. I use other non-rail related forums and the majority views on them are consistent with those here. There’s zero support amongst my colleagues but then I work in the hospitality industry.... The comments on the DM (yes I know....) are heavily against restrictions. The older generation of my immediate family have had enough now and want to get on with life (they’re retired working class northerners). I know that’s all anecdotal but where are they finding all of these restriction enthusiasts?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hardly a valid comparison. Are you saying exemption cards/certificates are compulsory? Or are you saying a ticket check should consist of "do you have a ticket"? If yes move on to the next person.

Well, for a start, if you've got a mask over your mouth but not your nose you are clearly not exempt. If you were exempt you wouldn't have one at all.

I have already said I support a formal exemption process, and similarly support businesses having their own (even if it is just to have to be brazen enough to say "I'm exempt" at the customer service desk to receive a lanyard).