UK face coverings discussion

[35B]

You think telling a toddler that they might put granny at "serious risk" isn't a form of abuse?

Correct. I think it’s a stupid phrase, which a toddler is unlikely to comprehend, but I recognise the need to persuade a toddler rather than get into a major set to with them, and have seen and engaged in plenty of persuasion of recalcitrant toddlers in my time.

There’s a whole back story there that we don’t know, and the poster telling the story presumes a particular conclusion based on their opinions of masks. If I’d been in that position I probably wouldn’t have bothered to get a toddler to mask up, but there are a couple of circumstances where I absolutely would, in excess of the legal requirement.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes especially if Granny does catch it anyway, the child would think it was their fault.

Exactly, its a form of psychological abuse. I dread to think of the damage people are doing to their own kid's mental health.

Correct. I think it’s a stupid phrase, which a toddler is unlikely to comprehend, but I recognise the need to persuade a toddler rather than get into a major set to with them, and have seen and engaged in plenty of persuasion of recalcitrant toddlers in my time.

There’s a whole back story there that we don’t know, and the poster telling the story presumes a particular conclusion based on their opinions of masks. If I’d been in that position I probably wouldn’t have bothered to get a toddler to mask up, but there are a couple of circumstances where I absolutely would, in excess of the legal requirement.

It doesn't matter what the backstory is, trying to use this form of guilt to make a toddler wear a mask is not on. What if something does happen to granny? Are they going to spend the rest of their lives feeling guilty? There is a right way and a wrong way to approach this, and the lady in question was very much in the wrong.

 

[35B]

Exactly, its a form of psychological abuse. I dread to think of the damage people are doing to their own kid's mental health.

It doesn't matter what the backstory is, trying to use this form of guilt to make a toddler wear a mask is not on. What if something does happen to granny? Are they going to spend the rest of their lives feeling guilty? There is a right way and a wrong way to approach this, and the lady in question was very much in the wrong.

Well, we’ll have to disagree then. And I can’t imagine how traumatised my kids are by the way my wife and I worked on them when we needed them to do things like sit in their car seats.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, we’ll have to disagree then. And I can’t imagine how traumatised my kids are by the way my wife and I worked on them when we needed them to do things like sit in their car seats.

Not this analogy again! Do you tell your kids if they don't sit in their car seats they'll kill granny? I'm sure you don't which is why this analogy is totally flawed.

 

[yorkie]

Well, we’ll have to disagree then. And I can’t imagine how traumatised my kids are by the way my wife and I worked on them when we needed them to do things like sit in their car seats.

That's not a comparable analogy

“The hysterical brigade”, as you so dismissively put it are also the bulk of the population ...

Absolute nonsense; the majority of people are not those who are pushing for further restrictions. It is a minority, albeit an extremely vocal minority.

You are conflating two issues here. While it may be acceptable not to provide access for people with certain physical disabilities (e.g. wheelchair users) using the defence of proportionality, that's not the same as actively discriminating against people who are perfectly capable of using the ferry, but are being banned from doing so simply because they cannot wear a mask. ....

Agreed.

I find it very worrying that such arguments are being made in the first place, but I am very grateful towards people like yourself @DavidB to be able to debunk them so eloquently.

They can Foxtrot Oscar. If that happens my sickness record will go through the roof.

Agreed, The BMA are pathetic. If this was mandated I'd definitely be resigning from my office job.

 

[35B]

That's not a comparable analogy

Entirely comparable in kind, although I agree not in severity. It is something that I as a parent wish my child to do for what I consider to be for general well-being, and which they prefer not to do.

Absolute nonsense; the majority of people are not those who are pushing for further restrictions. It is a minority, albeit an extremely vocal minority.

Perhaps we need to revisit definitions of majority, but as the majority of people willingly comply with mask regulations, and the language of hysteria is being used very broadly on here to cover anyone who chooses to wear a mask, I stand by my view.

Agreed.

I find it very worrying that such arguments are being made in the first place, but I am very grateful towards people like yourself @DavidB to be able to debunk them so eloquently.

I wish I were so easily convinced. There are conflicting legal obligations at work, and shouting "discrimination" does nothing to boost the argument.

Agreed, The BMA are pathetic. If this was mandated I'd definitely be resigning from my office job.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

On the 10:55 Thameslink service from Brighton to Bedford just now, the driver announced that ‘face coverings must be worn over the nose and mouth; under your chin does not count’. Then ‘this does not apply to children under 11 years old or people with medical conditions carrying and displaying an exemption card or certificate’

 

[Huntergreed]

On the 10:55 Thameslink service from Brighton to Bedford just now, the driver announced that ‘face coverings must be worn over the nose and mouth; under your chin does not count’. Then ‘this does not apply to children under 11 years old or people with medical conditions carrying and displaying an exemption card or certificate’

It's unbelievable that after over 3 months some staff still think an exemption card/certificate is needed.

 

[nlogax]

Remember to point to those businesses that insist on an exemption card;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ngs-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

Exemption cards

Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.

Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

 

[jtuk]

Finally, a sensible post on the subject.

It stopped being sensible when he selectively quoted one city from a study which supported his argument, and ignored the rest of them which didn't. Especially given that there's very good non-mask related reasons to explain why said one city suddenly had the results he wanted

 

[35B]

It stopped being sensible when he selectively quoted one city from a study which supported his argument, and ignored the rest of them which didn't. Especially given that there's very good non-mask related reasons to explain why said one city suddenly had the results he wanted

I quoted from a study the write up of which had convinced me to move my position. That wasn't "selective", and I didn't "ignore" others; I read that which came across my eyes and formed a judgement based on that. I stand by that judgement, and the way that opponents of masks show no sense of proportion, and have a tendency to be rude and derisive of those who disagree with them, does nothing to convince me of the merits of their case.

 

[DustyBin]

Perhaps we need to revisit definitions of majority, but as the majority of people willingly comply with mask regulations, and the language of hysteria is being used very broadly on here to cover anyone who chooses to wear a mask, I stand by my view.

I strongly believe that the majority of mask wearers do so begrudgingly rather than willingly due to the threat of a large fine....

 

[westv]

I strongly believe that the majority of mask wearers do so begrudgingly rather than willingly due to the threat of a large fine....

I think so too. My area almost nil mask useage before mandated. After almost 100%. People don't wear because they want to but because they are told they have to.

 

[yorkie]

Can the mask enthusiasts here say how they would handle this situation:

You see a boy in school who looks upset; you ask if they are alright. They say "no, not really. someone stole my mask and apparently that's my fault"; the school has a policy of punishing students for not wearing masks in corridors even though it's not mandated by Government.

What do you say to that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You see a boy in school who looks upset; you ask if they are alright. They say "no, not really. someone stole my mask and apparently that's my fault"; the school has a policy of punishing students for not wearing masks in corridors even though it's not mandated by Government.

What do you say to that?

If that school has any sense, they provide him with a disposable mask and ask who did it, where and when. And these days probably look at the CCTV to confirm that that person indeed did it, and put them in suspension for what, in this context, is a very serious offence indeed.

And if it happens more than once to the same person, then they've got a bullying situation to deal with.

It is probably comparable to kids going round pulling other kids' trousers down, to be honest (and I know that goes on, as people used to like doing it to me for some reason).

 

[Scrotnig]

If that school has any sense, they provide him with a disposable mask and ask who did it, where and when. And these days probably look at the CCTV to confirm that that person indeed did it, and put them in suspension for what, in this context, is a very serious offence indeed.

And if it happens more than once to the same person, then they've got a bullying situation to deal with.

It is probably comparable to kids going round pulling other kids' trousers down, to be honest (and I know that goes on, as people used to like doing it to me for some reason).

So the first action is not check he's ok or listen to his story...the first action is to make sure he's wearing a mask.

Shows everything that's wrong with this disgraceful law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the first action is not check he's ok or listen to his story...the first action is to make sure he's wearing a mask.

Give him the mask, have him put it on, then have a chat about the issue, yes. That is the safest option for all.

 

[Scrotnig]

Give him the mask, have him put it on, then have a chat about the issue, yes. That is the safest option for all.

Or be human and check he's ok first, then worry about a small child's compliance with ludicrous authoritarian laws later.

 

[Domh245]

put them in suspension for what, in this context, is a very serious offence indeed.

Just to clarify, because I'm not sure I can believe it otherwise, the fact that it was a mask that was stolen makes it a very serious offence, but if it had been anything else that was stolen it'd be less so?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to clarify, because I'm not sure I can believe it otherwise, the fact that it was a mask that was stolen makes it a very serious offence, but if it had been anything else that was stolen it'd be less so?

Yes, it is much more serious, because it is the theft of a piece of PPE which therefore causes[1] a safety risk. It's also more serious on other grounds, as like say the theft of someone's tie or another piece of uniform, or of their homework book before it was submitted, it's not a simple "take with intention to permanently deprive" as per the offence of theft, but instead it comes with an intention to get that kid in trouble. Therefore the offence is "aggravated", in a manner.

It could perhaps be compared with removing someone's goggles and running off with them while they were doing a chemistry experiment.

[1] Your opinion of masks can be what you wish it to be but are neither here nor there on the matter.

 

[Yew]

Yes, it is much more serious, because it is the theft of a piece of PPE which therefore causes[1] a safety risk.

It's fairly conclusive that it's not protective to the person though, and any risk to children is vanishingly small.

 

[AnkleBoots]

Masks are probably not 100% efficient even when worn correctly, but one of a range of useful measures

 

[STINT47]

Just to clarify, because I'm not sure I can believe it otherwise, the fact that it was a mask that was stolen makes it a very serious offence, but if it had been anything else that was stolen it'd be less so?

The theft could result in the deaths of multiple grand parents. The child could then be facing manslaughter or murder charges. Who ever stole it should be locked away in a dark place for a very very long time.

Ps. If you cant detect the sarcasm you've misunderstood.

 

[DB]

Masks are probably not 100% efficient even when worn correctly, but one of a range of useful measures

That sounds like a phrase from some government propaganda!

There is no clear evidence that (as used by the public) they are 0% effective, never mind 100%!

 

[Howardh]

UK coronavirus: all household mixing indoors in north-east England to be illegal, says Hancock – as it happened

8,000 pupils and 350 teachers self-isolating in Liverpool; ONS says infection rates higher among those who travelled abroad

www.theguardian.com

Scroll down to 14.50 this is a constantly updating column

The number of fines issued to rail passengers who fail to wear face coverings has been going up in the past month, figures suggest. As PA Media reports, British Transport Police (BTP) handed out 32 fines between 15 June, when the new laws came into place in England, and 17 August. But the total figure rose to 81 by 24 September, by which point the force had also stopped 54,175 people to remind them of the rules, and asked 3,842 people to leave the railway.

On the face of it, nothing to see here.

But - suppose someone wasn't wearing a mask, said they were exempt, would they have to prove they were exempt (ie turning the law the other way round - guilty until proved innocent) and if so, how could they possibly do that? A doctor's note?

So underneath the headline I wonder if anyone who is genually exempt, got a fine or told to leave the train/station; has appealed, who to and how can you prove your case?

I'm hoping the common sense has resulted in no such instances occuring - if BTP have been told "I'm exempt" I hope that's the end of it in all cases.

 

[nlogax]

I'm hoping the common sense has resulted in no such instances occuring - if BTP have been told "I'm exempt" I hope that's the end of it in all cases.

Absolutely - but doesn't the attitude test come into this too?

 

[py_megapixel]

That sounds like a phrase from some government propaganda!

There is no clear evidence that (as used by the public) they are 0% effective

Could you please point me to a piece of evidence that a mask has never prevented a Covid transmission?

 

[Huntergreed]

Could you please point me to a piece of evidence that a mask has never prevented a Covid transmission?

You’re asking for a negative to be proven, that’s not how this works. You need to provide is with proof that makes are effective, otherwise there’s no evidence and the law can be assumed to be pretty pointless.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Bus Users UK are calling out bus operators on Twitter who are tweeting incorrect (or incomplete) information regarding face coverings, e.g.: https://twitter.com/BusUsersUK/status/1310589195853979651

People don't have to 'apply for an exemption' under the Equalities Act 2010.

 

[Howardh]

True story about masks; I went to catch a bus and I'd completely forgotten and the bus turned up, I got on. The driver said "have you a mask" so embarrassingly replied that I'd forgotten, and will pull my coat over my face.
"No worries" he said, and just handed me a mask out of a box. "Oh, thanks, brilliant, I'll pay you for that, £1?" and he refused, saying he had bought a bulk amount and handing them out was easier than dealing with obstructing passengers and kept his bus on time.

If masks in bulk can be purchased for pennies, wouldn't it be better for guards, bus drivers and BTP etc to simply carry them around and hand them out if necessary?