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UK officially enters recession

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MontyMinerWA

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I agree that we could probably compete on quality, but those products are at the expensive end of the scale, for which there is a relatively small market. For cheap, mass-produced products, that most people can afford to buy, I can't see us competing with the third world because we will never compete with their wage rates etc.
So why are we not selling wind turbines to the world? Why do we not have the capability to build nuclear power stations? We build submarines in Barrow so why are we not flogging subs to the rest of the world?
 
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Chester1

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So why are we not selling wind turbines to the world? Why do we not have the capability to build nuclear power stations? We build submarines in Barrow so why are we not flogging subs to the rest of the world?

Is that a serious question?

Its blindingly obvious why we wouldn't sell submarines to the vast majority of countries. Only a handful of allied countries can afford anything like the astute class.
 

MontyMinerWA

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Is that a serious question?

Its blindingly obvious why we wouldn't sell submarines to the vast majority of countries. Only a handful of allied countries can afford anything like the astute class.
Yes it is a serious question. Why not start designing diesel boats? Thanks.
 

Richard Scott

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Okay here's an example. We own a two year old Peugeot 208. We'd happily switch to a British built Nissan Leaf but at the moment there aren't enough charging points. Please can you name a British built alternative to the 208?

Please understand that I'm not really arguing against you. I share your frustration. However in terms of buying a car what can my wife and I do?

Unfortunately the Micra is too small for us (assuming that's start built in the North East).
Ultimately it is about choice but my point was that people moan but expect someone else (usually they point at the Government) to act. I feel lots of people drive German cars as they think they are the thing to have, you ask them why and they don't often have an answer!
 

PaulMc7

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Does the average person really look into where what they purchase is manufactured? Personally, I'd say no. People tend to buy the in things at the time, what's affordable or don't look at too many options and buy quickly
 

Non Multi

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Ultimately it is about choice but my point was that people moan but expect someone else (usually they point at the Government) to act. I feel lots of people drive German cars as they think they are the thing to have, you ask them why and they don't often have an answer!
Many of the right hand drive models from Mercedes and BMW are assembled in that well known bit of Germany called South Africa!
 

MontyMinerWA

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Ultimately it is about choice but my point was that people moan but expect someone else (usually they point at the Government) to act. I feel lots of people drive German cars as they think they are the thing to have, you ask them why and they don't often have an answer!
I concur. However we've had decades to build our own markets in renewables. And yet we've poured all our hopes into cafe bars, restaurants and God knows what else. This was a disaster waiting to happen.
 

Belperpete

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So why are we not selling wind turbines to the world? Why do we not have the capability to build nuclear power stations? We build submarines in Barrow so why are we not flogging subs to the rest of the world?
Wind turbines - because we were slow to adopt them, other countries took the lead.
Nuclear power stations - because we stopped building them, so our manufacturers had no market. We our now buying nuclear power stations that other countries developed for their home markets.
Subs - a very small and niche market, where the politics is probably just as important as the cost.

It takes a considerable amount of R&D to develop a product, which you then need to sell a certain volume to recoup the costs. America, India, China etc have huge domestic markets that they use as the foundation for developing products. Back when we had an empire, we had a huge captive market that we used to develop and finance our products, but now we have a very small domestic market. Of course, the whole EU was effectively our domestic market, until Brexit.
 

Chester1

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Yes it is a serious question. Why not start designing diesel boats? Thanks.

Its more or less the same problem. Its a very small market once you remove non allied countries. The larger countries make their own ships and submarines, even if the designs are foreign. E.g. Australia is making frigates using a British design and diesel submarines using a French design but both fleets are being built in Australia.
 

MontyMinerWA

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Wind turbines - because we were slow to adopt them, other countries took the lead.
Nuclear power stations - because we stopped building them, so our manufacturers had no market. We our now buying nuclear power stations that other countries developed for their home markets.
Subs - a very small and niche market, where the politics is probably just as important as the cost.

It takes a considerable amount of R&D to develop a product, which you then need to sell a certain volume to recoup the costs. America, India, China etc have huge domestic markets that they use as the foundation for developing products. Back when we had an empire, we had a huge captive market that we used to develop and finance our products, but now we have a very small domestic market. Of course, the whole EU was effectively our domestic market, until Brexit.
And yet the Germans have been selling diesel boats for decades. We should have been investing in R & D. Again it comes back to industrial strategy. Sadly we've not had a properly thought out one for decades.
 

MontyMinerWA

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Its more or less the same problem. Its a very small market once you remove non allied countries. The larger countries make their own ships and submarines, even if the designs are foreign. E.g. Australia is making frigates using a British design and diesel submarines using a French design but both fleets are being built in Australia.
So why are Australia buying a French design?? Why were we not all over it? Not good enough.
 

Non Multi

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However where do the profits go?
My point is that these cars are sold as 'German'. Ownership is another matter entirely.
And yet the Germans have been selling diesel boats for decades. We should have been investing in R & D. Again it comes back to industrial strategy. Sadly we've not had a properly thought out one for decades.
Our strategy has been to migrate from manufacturing to services!
 

37424

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We have all moved on since BL days. Lots of countries produced rubbish cars back then, that's what gave the Japanese an entry into the market.
Yes but the reputation has stuck for many years particularly for people like myself who can remember that far back, while Germany's overrated reputation has continued to grow.

We should also remember that a large part of the UK car industry was in the hands of 2 american giants who rationalised their operations in Europe with consequent loss of production in the UK.

We also frequently don't help ourselves by flogging off our manufacturing industry to anybody who wants it and while some may invest many don't and shut the UK plants down.

Unfortunately we have had too many years of governments with little or no interest in Manufacturing.

As for blaming all these job losses on covid, I suspect some is a result of long overdue action by many companies. The opportunity to work from home has been there for a while and covid has now dragged some companies kicking and screaming into the 21st century, along with Retail the Elephant in the room of Online Retail has been there for sometime, as has too many Pubs/Restaurants chasing more customers than the market will really support in many places.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whilst I agree, this isn't a short term possibility. It will take years, maybe even decades to rebuild.

And therein lies a problem with British politics - short-termism. We need to start now for benefit in 20+ years' time. We seem to manage that idea with HS2 - most of the present middle aged adult population won't really benefit from it, the benefits will be to our children's generation.
 

Richard Scott

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And therein lies a problem with British politics - short-termism. We need to start now for benefit in 20+ years' time. We seem to manage that idea with HS2 - most of the present middle aged adult population won't really benefit from it, the benefits will be to our children's generation.
But we are where we are and all we can hope is that this will make people realise that manufacturing deserves more attention than it gets. Apparently we're still 9th biggest manufacturer in the world, obviously there's room for improvement. We do need to remember we manufacture a lot of high value goods rather than lots of cheap tat like China.
 

Yew

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Yes but the reputation has stuck for many years particularly for people like myself who can remember that far back, while Germany's overrated reputation has continued to grow.

We should also remember that a large part of the UK car industry was in the hands of 2 american giants who rationalised their operations in Europe with consequent loss of production in the UK.

We also frequently don't help ourselves by flogging off our manufacturing industry to anybody who wants it and while some may invest many don't and shut the UK plants down.

Indeed, the fact that we didn't include any protections when we sold of the massive numbers on industries is incredible. It is either a remarkable oversight or a coldly calculated plan for the Conservatives to funnel yet more public money into their pockets.
 

ExRes

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Indeed, the fact that we didn't include any protections when we sold of the massive numbers on industries is incredible. It is either a remarkable oversight or a coldly calculated plan for the Conservatives to funnel yet more public money into their pockets.

I don't seek to apologise for the Conservatives or any other political group but I think you need to check your facts before blaming them for everything, I quote from the New Statesman dated 24 January 2013 in an article titled "Meeting our makers : Britains long industrial decline"

"Manufacturing went on shrinking under New Labour ; the sector's workforce halved from 4.5 milion to 2.5 million between 1997 and 2010. Financial and business services were seen as the way forward for Britain, with manufacturing recognised as globally competitive only in aerospace and pharmaceuticals. As immigrant workers flooded into Britain's services and food sector, manufacturing jobs flooded out, mainly to the Far East"

It's not always so clear as to who is at the root of our industrial and manufacturing decline
 

DB

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I don't seek to apologise for the Conservatives or any other political group but I think you need to check your facts before blaming them for everything, I quote from the New Statesman dated 24 January 2013 in an article titled "Meeting our makers : Britains long industrial decline"

Yes, Blairite New Labour were very much of the same mindset as the Tories in this regard - they clearly saw the future as service industries and financial services.
 
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Yes we've backed ourselves into a corner with the hospitality industry being so significant. I fear that places like cultural attractions are going to lose out far more in the longer term.

The risk to culture/arts/theatre/gigs/event is as much a short term issue as it is long-term. We're still shut by government order and with little prospect of reopening in a financially viable way until next year.
UKGov has indicated that they won't even *review* social distancing for indoor performances until November AFTER the furlough scheme ends - that ill be too late for many busineses

There is now a very real risk that without further government support (or at least a roadmap with indicative dates) the sector could collapse and take the supply chain with it. That would be immensely hard to rebuild in terms of companies, staff and the huge number of freelance/self-employed workers.

We're worth billions to the UK economy directly plus we drive about 3x additional spend in other sectors such as travel, tourism and hospitality - it will cost a lot of money to support the industry but it will cost many times that in the long term if the sector collapses
 

DB

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UKGov has indicated that they won't even *review* social distancing for indoor performances until November AFTER the furlough scheme ends - that ill be too late for many busineses

They really are utterly incompetent, aren't they?
 

bramling

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The risk to culture/arts/theatre/gigs/event is as much a short term issue as it is long-term. We're still shut by government order and with little prospect of reopening in a financially viable way until next year.
UKGov has indicated that they won't even *review* social distancing for indoor performances until November AFTER the furlough scheme ends - that ill be too late for many busineses

There is now a very real risk that without further government support (or at least a roadmap with indicative dates) the sector could collapse and take the supply chain with it. That would be immensely hard to rebuild in terms of companies, staff and the huge number of freelance/self-employed workers.

We're worth billions to the UK economy directly plus we drive about 3x additional spend in other sectors such as travel, tourism and hospitality - it will cost a lot of money to support the industry but it will cost many times that in the long term if the sector collapses

I agree there should be support for there sectors. It’s crazy money is being spent subsidising an industry which is now *open* with the dining Sunak Special, whilst other industries which many would regard as far more valuable remain closed.
 

Richard Scott

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I agree there should be support for there sectors. It’s crazy money is being spent subsidising an industry which is now *open* with the dining Sunak Special, whilst other industries which many would regard as far more valuable remain closed.
Let's just get them all open and stop messing about. We need to get on with life. There are too many other pressing issues that need addressing, the virus is not the only thing on the agenda but you wouldn't think that the way we carry on.
 

Class 33

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The risk to culture/arts/theatre/gigs/event is as much a short term issue as it is long-term. We're still shut by government order and with little prospect of reopening in a financially viable way until next year.
UKGov has indicated that they won't even *review* social distancing for indoor performances until November AFTER the furlough scheme ends - that ill be too late for many busineses

Absolutely ridiculous that the government won't even review social distancing until November. Why do they have to wait till then? And if the COVID Alert Level drops down to Level 2, social distancing is supposed to then minimal or even scrapped altogether. It could well drop down to Level 2 before November!

It's disgraceful!

This lockdown and social distancing completely wrecked the festival season this summer. And the longer this drags on and on, the same thing could even happen for next years festivals.

But of course, also the longer this social distancing drags on and on the more likely it will wreck many MANY businesses across various sectors, and the unemployment level will be absolutely sky high.
 

Richard Scott

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Absolutely ridiculous that the government won't even review social distancing until November. Why do they have to wait till then? And if the COVID Alert Level drops down to Level 2, social distancing is supposed to then minimal or even scrapped altogether. It could well drop down to Level 2 before November!

It's disgraceful!

This lockdown and social distancing completely wrecked the festival season this summer. And the longer this drags on and on, the same thing could even happen for next years festivals.

But of course, also the longer this social distancing drags on and on the more likely it will wreck many MANY businesses across various sectors, and the unemployment level will be absolutely sky high.
Completely agree, is the Government hell bent on completely wrecking this country? We do have quite an export industry in setting up events but that's no good when they've all gone to the wall. Also going to festivals, concerts, theatre etc. is good for people's wellbeing and supports wider industry, that seems to have been forgotten. If Government can support pubs/restaurants etc with 50% scheme Monday to Wednesday why can't they do that for theatres etc even if only open one or two days a week if they're that bothered about social distancing?
 

Bletchleyite

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Absolutely ridiculous that the government won't even review social distancing until November. Why do they have to wait till then? And if the COVID Alert Level drops down to Level 2, social distancing is supposed to then minimal or even scrapped altogether. It could well drop down to Level 2 before November!

Basically no chance. We're looking at when a vaccine arrives, so Q1-Q2 next year.
 
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