UK Tram Systems

[Masboroughlad]

Totally hypothetically speaking.....

Are UK tram networks the same gauge as Network Rail mainlines?

If so, could any mainline certified locos work on to tram systems?

Also, could trams operate on Network Rail?

 

[richardio123]

If I'm not mistaken.. Manchester Metrolink is. Mainly because 3 of the lines are converted railway lines and have connections to NR track and obviously the other 4 lines are the same

 

[adrock1976]

Possibly Croydon Tramlink too, as the section of the route between Wimbledon and Croydon via Mitcham Junction was formerly heavy rail.

In peace

Adam

 

[Taunton]

Although the tracks are the same gauge apart, and locos (and main line rolling stock) can run onto open track sections, such as the converted lines described above, they are unable to run on street running sections, because tram wheels are to a much smaller profile than main line, with narrower treads and flanges, as the groove on street running tram rail is much smaller. If you compare street running tram rail with what a main line railway needs at a level crossing, you will appreciate this. It would be hazardous to have the big gap needed for main line trains running longitudinally along streets; bicycle wheels etc would jam in it (as can be seen, for example, along Weymouth Quay!

On the old tramway system in Glasgow, which ran until 1962, the entire system had an oddball gauge of 4 feet 7 3/4 inches, three-quarters of an inch smaller than the main line gauge of 4 feet 8 1/2 inches. This was because they did have inter-running of main line goods wagons over the tramway to shipyards etc. They ran on the street tracks on normal profile tram rail, but with the wagons actually running on their flanges rather than on their normal treads. This wouldn't work for locomotives, so the tramway had their own small electric locomotives, which had wheels to tramway profile, to pull them.

 

[tsr]

Possibly Croydon Tramlink too, as the section of the route between Wimbledon and Croydon via Mitcham Junction was formerly heavy rail.

Cheers

Adam

Unfortunately, there is now no connection between these lines and the NR network, so it would usually be impractical to consider running heavy rail stock on Tramlink lines. Also, I doubt the tolerances for the newer sections of infrastructure (eg. the flyovers, level crossings and so on) and general light rail maintenance would allow it, and I am not sure about the current gauging situation, especially at platforms.

As for Tramlink trams operating on NR metals, they would presumably have to be hauled somehow by a locomotive (no idea if that would actually work) as they could not switch to and run off 25kV AC supplies, to the best of my knowledge!

However, you are right that the track gauge has not changed and remains Standard Gauge.

 

[O L Leigh]

Notwithstanding the problems of wheel profiles and grooved on-street rails, any mainline stock is likely to batter tram tracks to kingdom come pretty quickly. The trackbed formations and other associated structures such as bridges are likely to be more lightly built than the mainline network, even where the route runs on former mainline routes. Then there are the gradients and curve radii which tend to much more severe on light rail networks than they are on the mainline network.

Trying to send a Cl66 down after a Croydon tram is likely only to result in a stranded loco that cannot get back along the tracks it's just comprehensively demolished.

O L Leigh

 

[Busaholic]

The first tram-trains in this country will operate between Sheffield and Rotherham and the route is under construction. Yes, the gauge is the same but there the similarities end. Most modern trams are low-floor (Manchester's are an exception) and trains of course aren't so platform levels are different, the type of wheels used on 'heavy rail' are unsuitable for the grooved rails on roads in the urban areas and the whole signalling/regulatory regime is entirely different which will require changes in operational practices and, dare I say it, philosophical attitudes.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Most tramways and metros are standard guage. All these trams will fit on mainlines but National Rail flages won't fit in street sections.
The platforms are wrong height.
The overhead wires needed are lower voltage for trams.

Tram train proposals exist in many parts of the UK. But funding won't be given until after the trial of the Rotherham Supertram extension on network rail tracks.

 

[richardio123]

Metrolink t68 trams were as heavy as a pacer 45 tonnes. In comparison to there current 39 tonne M5000.

 

[37038]

Metrolink and Tyne/Wear Metro are both fine for NR gauge in certain places but not many. Metrolink has mainline connections half way up Miles Platting and at Bury Bolton Street. Obviously TWM shares with NR between Sunderland and Pelaw.

37409 South Hylton (not mine): https://www.flickr.com/photos/north.../photolist-fjPLBp-fk5nE5-dAiXE3-dAdu3Z-dAdtLB

37109/901/418 Radcliffe (not mine):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0h_MUkBaDY

Thanks

 

[Josie]

It's become part of East Lancs Railway folklore that one of the steam engines (as Thomas the Tank Engine) went to Metrolink's Queens Road depot by rail for a pre-launch open day. ISTR there's video of it on YouTube somewhere.

 

[umontu]

It's become part of East Lancs Railway folklore that one of the steam engines (as Thomas the Tank Engine) went to Metrolink's Queens Road depot by rail for a pre-launch open day. ISTR there's video of it on YouTube somewhere.

Completely true

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOo3NMwMY4

Metrolink has loads of connections to the mainline.

Alty/Navigation Road, Bury (Via East Lancs), Newton Heath, Victoria and Rochdale (Though it wasn't connected the last time I was there.)

I'm actually really surprised they didn't put one in at the airport.

 

[snowball]

Metrolink's connections to NR have been discussed from time to time on the on the Metrolink threads on Skyscrapercity. They are very little used and there is no connection at Rochdale. I think it has been said that most mainline stock would not fit past Metrolink's platforms. In the summer a tamper was used on the south end of the airport line but instead of arriving via an NR connection it was transferred from a road trailer, propping itself up on its own legs.

However Metrolink does have extensive tram-train plans in which special stock, not yet designed, would inter-work between Metrolink and some National Rail lines, sharing the latter with conventional trains. The Sheffield experiment will be watched closely.

 

[47802]

Although the tracks are the same gauge apart, and locos (and main line rolling stock) can run onto open track sections, such as the converted lines described above, they are unable to run on street running sections, because tram wheels are to a much smaller profile than main line, with narrower treads and flanges, as the groove on street running tram rail is much smaller. If you compare street running tram rail with what a main line railway needs at a level crossing, you will appreciate this. It would be hazardous to have the big gap needed for main line trains running longitudinally along streets; bicycle wheels etc would jam in it (as can be seen, for example, along Weymouth Quay!

Well that will be interesting for cyclists in Sheffield then as the track is to be relaid with deeper grooves to accommodate the deeper wheel flange of the tram trains, the track is due for renewal anyway, and analysis has revealed that if you tried run a current Sheffield tram on the mainline there would be a danger of derailment from network rail switch blades.

 

[apk55]

Tramways also have sharper curves than railways and a lot of railway stock could not cope with this.

 

[edwin_m]

Well that will be interesting for cyclists in Sheffield then as the track is to be relaid with deeper grooves to accommodate the deeper wheel flange of the tram trains, the track is due for renewal anyway, and analysis has revealed that if you tried run a current Sheffield tram on the mainline there would be a danger of derailment from network rail switch blades.

These street track grooves are deeper than the previous ones but not as deep as would be needed for heavy rail wheel flanges. The tram-trains will have a special wheel profile which is compatible with these grooves and also with heavy rail switches, but only if the heavy rail check rails are raised above running rail level. This is also the solution used on Metrolink where rail wagons can run on the off-street sections.

On the other tramways, heavy rail stock could in theory run on the off-street plain line but at any off-street switches they would derail or damage the track or both.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

there is no connection at Rochdale.

Have the siding and double traps at Rochdale gone then? The crossover at Vic East is due to go soon and there is the one at Altrincham that seems to have a limited future.

 

[142094]

Just a note but the Tyne and Wear Metro is not a tram system, as it does not have any street running sections.

BR used the section between Benton Junction and Callerton for deliveries to ICI Callerton and Rowntrees Factory at Fawdon. The overhead wires for this section were higher to allow mainline locos to use the section.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Just a note but the Tyne and Wear Metro is not a tram system, as it does not have any street running sections.

BR used the section between Benton Junction and Callerton for deliveries to ICI Callerton and Rowntrees Factory at Fawdon. The overhead wires for this section were higher to allow mainline locos to use the section.

Yes it isn't a tramway, it's a metro as it's name suggests. But plans for a future extension to Washington have looked at the possibillity of street running. All that's needed to make them legally trams is panels covering the wheels (like class 139 which was built ready for a street extension).

The Manchester Metrolink are more like trains than trams. Look at Altrincham and Bury stations, they aren't tram stops but railway stations.

 

[142094]

Yes it isn't a tramway, it's a metro as it's name suggests. But plans for a future extension to Washington have looked at the possibillity of street running. All that's needed to make them legally trams is panels covering the wheels (like class 139 which was built ready for a street extension).

There have been several extensions mentioned in the past 20 years and an extension to Washington has been suggested either as a light rail project or with different rolling stock i.e. trams proper.

The fact of the matter is the TW Metro system is more like heavy rail compared to any other tram system in the UK.

 

[snowball]

Have the siding and double traps at Rochdale gone then?

There is a NR siding, probably on the original alignment of the Oldham loop before the Metrolink bridge was built. I could be wrong but I thought it was never connected at the Metrolink end. I don't think it even approaches particularly close to the Metrolink track. I think that at the point of closest approach the siding is at a lower level than the Metrolink line.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I remember seeing (quite late at night) an 08 taking an load of engineering wagons right through the centre of Manchester (circa 2006/7) - on the Peter's Square to Market Street leg - presumably for work to the Metrolink system somewhere. I heard that they adapted the 08 by putting rubber on the wheels or something like that?

 

[snowball]

Yes it [T&W Metro] isn't a tramway, it's a metro as it's name suggests. But plans for a future extension to Washington have looked at the possibillity of street running. All that's needed to make them legally trams is panels covering the wheels (like class 139 which was built ready for a street extension).

Any street running sections would probably need to have an overhead voltage of no more than 750V, half that used on the present Metro lines.

The Manchester Metrolink are more like trains than trams. Look at Altrincham and Bury stations, they aren't tram stops but railway stations.

I would have thought the street running sections made them definitively trams. Moreover, the rail-style block signalling on the Altrincham and Bury lines is being phased out in favour of line-of-sight working like road vehicles.

 

[Masboroughlad]

Is the Blackpool tram network connected to Network Rail anywhere?

 

[Whistler40145]

As a Blackpool lad, I can confirm that the tram system isn't connected to the Network Rail system.

 

[DXMachina]

Any street running sections would probably need to have an overhead voltage of no more than 750V, half that used on the present Metro lines.

On the French/Italian border Italian 3000v DC trains run in under French 1500v catenary. Given that DC power systems use no transformers (which by virtue of the fixed impedance of their HT coils impose a strict input voltage requirement), I wouldnt be surprised if 40-50% power could be expressed under 750v by a 1500v unit.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

On the French/Italian border Italian 3000v DC trains run in under French 1500v catenary. Given that DC power systems use no transformers (which by virtue of the fixed impedance of their HT coils impose a strict input voltage requirement), I wouldnt be surprised if 40-50% power could be expressed under 750v by a 1500v unit.

Eurostar trains can run on 3 different voltages. But they are very complicated inside compared to others.

If street running sections is what defines a tram then what is Seaton tramway? That doesn't run in streets. And the Welsh Highland railway has a street running section. Is that a tram?

I like to classify trams as light rail vehicles that are derived from tram designs.
Metrolink was based on heavy rail as shown by it's stations and weighty vehicles.
The Tyne and Wear Metro is similar but the vehicles were influenced by German Stadtbahn systems.

 

[WestRiding]

The WHR is a Level Crossing, surely? It has standard L/C lights. And the Seaton TW uses trams, is that why its a tramway?

 

[edwin_m]

A tramway is basically defined as a route where the vehicles are driven on line of sight, rather than under the control of a block signalling system as on railways. Line of sight includes the "white bar" signals, which are like traffic lights in that they indicate who has priority but do not give an absolute indication that the route is clear.

Under the official definition Metrolink was treated as a railway until the majority of the network was under line of sight. Tyne and Wear Metro and DLR are both light rail but neither is a tramway.

As stated freight trains used the Metro route between Benton and Bank Foot for a few years after the Metro opened. Metro trains now share Network Rail infrastructure between Pelaw and Sunderland, and extra TPWS equipment is used to reduce the risk of a SPAD causing a collision on this section between a heavy train and a lighter Metrocar.

 

[thenorthern]

The inclines particularly on the Sheffield Supertram I think would be an issue as the gradients are very steep and I think mainline trains would struggle going up them without assistance.