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UKIP: Do they have a future?

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meridian2

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But what I disagree with is just saying "we are going to ban it" - what does that actually achieve, apart from putting you on the wrong side of a section of the population?
So long as all traditions are dealt with even-handedly I agree. In practice I don't think walking through Stamford Hill in North London wearing an SS officer's uniform, or a crusader's outfit in parts of Bradford can be viewed in an ideologically neutral way.

I think burqas in the UK show a lack of understanding for, or dismissal of some longstanding cultural reference points, and it would be better for social cohesion and understanding if devout Muslim women allowed their faces to be uncovered.
 
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Antman

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But a Halloween mask does conceal someones identity. So I don't see how you can say "oh but that is fine" just because it provides you with a difficult question in your beliefs. What about cosplayers who often have masks / items that hide their face as part of their costume? Also, a side question here, why the hell do you think you have the right to know the identity of a random person in the street? You don't. Why do you even care? I don't pay attention to 99% of the people I pass when I am in public so I don't see why it even matters!



1 - Clothing is totally differing to singing songs.

2 - There is a massive difference between banning something because it has historical links to something nasty and banning something because either you do not like it or because you can't see their face. In any case, I think people should be able to wear what they like. But they should not be immune from comment about what they choose to wear. So if someone does decide to wear a Nazi uniform, then fine - but they shouldn't complain when a national newspaper prints a photo of it on their front page! With the Burka, I am happy for it to be criticised. I actually think it is quite an interesting cultural topic, do we dislike it because of security / hiding someones face, or is it more simply because it is totally alien and different to us (which is what I think). But what I disagree with is just saying "we are going to ban it" - what does that actually achieve, apart from putting you on the wrong side of a section of the population?

Somebody wearing a Halloween mask in the middle of summer stands out like a sore thumb, the comparison is ridiculous.

I don't need to see peoples faces but the police obviously might, somebody has already provided a link to robbers wearing burkas.
 

meridian2

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Er, they look pretty well covered to me...
That uniform inhibits the transfer of viral information as successfully as a burqa, but to completely different ends. If a consultant wore it socially I'd be equally ambivalent about his attitude to me as an equal.
 

WelshBluebird

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So long as all traditions are dealt with even-handedly I agree. In practice I don't think walking through Stamford Hill in North London wearing an SS officer's uniform, or a crusader's outfit in parts of Bradford can be viewed in an ideologically neutral way.

I think burqas in the UK show a lack of understanding for, or dismissal of some longstanding cultural reference points, and it would be better for social cohesion and understanding if devout Muslim women allowed their faces to be uncovered.

But we are talking of totally different things here. Wearing an SS uniform or a crusaders outfit is hardly "tradition". The main reason why someone would do that in those areas is to wind people up. Totally different to why people where the Burka. But using that example, I have seen people wear crusader costumes at Twickenham for the Rugby. So ultimately it depends on context and reasoning doesn't it? If someone is just going about their day, I really don't see what right we have to tell them they can't wear something unless they are wearing it to deliberately antagonise others (which you can probably use existing public order laws to deal with).

That uniform inhibits the transfer of viral information as successfully as a burqa, but to completely different ends. If a consultant wore it socially I'd be equally ambivalent about his attitude to me as an equal.

So what about people who wear cosplay gear socially? Some of which can easily hide the person even more?

Somebody wearing a Halloween mask in the middle of summer stands out like a sore thumb, the comparison is ridiculous.

I don't need to see peoples faces but the police obviously might, somebody has already provided a link to robbers wearing burkas.

I refer you to my point about cosplay gear. You don't see the met police having issues in London when you have large cosplay conventions because they can't tell who is a cosplayer and who is planning to rob somewhere (the issues that you do see are just when the cosplay weapons start to look "too" realistic, nothing to do with what the person is wearing).
 
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meridian2

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So what about people who wear cosplay gear socially? Some of which can easily hide the person even more?
I don't know what cosplay is, but I assume its dressing up like a cartoon character or something similar. Are you suggesting burqas are worn for entertainment purposes?
 

EM2

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If a consultant wore it socially I'd be equally ambivalent about his attitude to me as an equal.
But your point was 'Would you want someone behind a total body covering teaching your children or performing surgery? I'm not sure I would.'
What's that got to do with what anyone wears socially?
 

meridian2

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But your point was 'Would you want someone behind a total body covering teaching your children or performing surgery? I'm not sure I would.'
What's that got to do with what anyone wears socially?
It's inappropriate for someone to teach a group with uncovered faces, with a covered face. It's asymmetrical in numerous ways as teaching is more than the relay of information, it's about trust, engagement and empathy, none of which are promoted by a speaking sheet. If someone carries out surgery in clothing that is not exclusively about the inhibition of germs, there is a dereliction of duty.

If a Muslim woman wants to engage with society on a professional level with a suitable dress code, and wear a burqa at home or socially that's entirely her business. Do such women exist, or is the burqa exclusively about non-engagement?
 

Antman

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I don't know what cosplay is, but I assume its dressing up like a cartoon character or something similar. Are you suggesting burqas are worn for entertainment purposes?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had no idea what cosplay is:lol:!
 

EM2

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It's inappropriate for someone to teach a group with uncovered faces, with a covered face. It's asymmetrical in numerous ways as teaching is more than the relay of information, it's about trust, engagement and empathy, none of which are promoted by a speaking sheet.
I really, honestly, don't care. Are they a good teacher? Yes? Great.
If someone carries out surgery in clothing that is not exclusively about the inhibition of germs, there is a dereliction of duty.
But they are still covered. And that was your argument. Not what they were covered with.
If a Muslim woman wants to engage with society on a professional level with a suitable dress code, and wear a burqa at home or socially that's entirely her business. Do such women exist, or is the burqa exclusively about non-engagement?
Why should anyone take notice of what you decide they should wear? What do you think about the recent outcry over secretaries and receptionists being forced to wear high heels because of a dress code? Is that acceptable?

Whether such women exist, as you ask, I don't know. Why don't you ask some?
 

meridian2

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I really, honestly, don't care. Are they a good teacher? Yes? Great.

But they are still covered. And that was your argument. Not what they were covered with.

Why should anyone take notice of what you decide they should wear? What do you think about the recent outcry over secretaries and receptionists being forced to wear high heels because of a dress code? Is that acceptable?

Whether such women exist, as you ask, I don't know. Why don't you ask some?
You're doing your old trick of creating equivalences between situations with no practical or cultural link.
A teacher with a covered face is as useful as a tape recorder at disseminating information. A child has no way of knowing if their reply is accurate, amusing or inappropriate except by the words of a sheeted figure. It's a reduction of the teacher's humanity in a situation where empathy is key.
A figure performing surgery in a garment the figure does household chores in, is not sterile.
I'm not deciding what's appropriate and have not suggested banning anything. I'm suggesting what is inappropriate for practical and cultural reasons, and pointing out the hypocrisy of pursuing a politically correct agenda to its absurd conclusion.
 

KN1

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It's all about complete subservience and everybody knows it.
All the countries were the burqa is pretty universal like Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. have the worst violations of women's rights on the planet.

Seems the love affair with the burqua doesn't apply to the women forced to wear it.

Syrian women have been filmed burning the burqas Isis forced them to wear in a celebration of the militants being driven out.
“Damn this stupid invention that they made us wear,” one woman said as she set light to the black garment. “We’re humans, we have our freedom.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/islamic-state-syrian-women-burn-burqas-burkas-in-celebration-after-being-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html
 
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WelshBluebird

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It's all about complete subservience and everybody knows it.
All the countries were the burqa is pretty universal like Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. have the worst violations of women's rights on the planet.

Love how you argument against subservience and violations of women's rights is to ban them for wearing something! Isn't the whole point of our free society is that people are allowed to choose rather than get told what to do?
Banning someone from wearing something is not really any better than forcing someone to wear something.
 
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meridian2

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It's all about complete subservience and everybody knows it.
All the countries were the burqa is pretty universal like Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. have the worst violations of women's rights on the planet.
It's also something of a fashion statement among young Muslim women who believe they are empowering themselves by wearing it. Their mother's generation of English Muslims wouldn't have dreamt of wearing the burqa, but the young of various religions, including Christianity, perceive extreme conservatism as a statement against the forces of liberalism and decadence.

It's not about attire alone, I find Christian monks a charming sight, but I wouldn't feel the same if their faces were permanently cowled and they refused to engage on the street.
 

KN1

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Love how you argument against subservience and violations of women's rights is to ban them for wearing something! Isn't the whole point of our free society is that people are allowed to choose rather than get told what to do?

They aren't choosing, can't you understand, it's forced the same as FGM which is probably another thing you agree with.

I would say prominent muslim Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has it spot on but no doubt you know better

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibbai-brown-sixteen-reasons-why-i-object-to-this-dangerous-cover-up-2261444.html

Years ago, I warned that the simple headscarf (hijab) was but the first step to full fabric incarceration. I was mocked and disparaged then by Muslim adherents, as well as many on the left. To them, such challenges to cultural practices validate bigotry and threaten liberties. Their laudable concern makes criticism impossibly difficult. Now they are everywhere, ravens, in burka (long cloaks) and niqab (face veils), their little girls scarved and in cumbersome long coats (in training, I am told) for that big day when they too can go into prisons of black polyester. They will be smiling, one mother of four daughters said to me. Or they may be crying, I said, and nobody will see either.
It is a form of female apartheid, of selected segregation tacitly saying non-veiled women are pollutants. There is such a thing as society and we connect with our faces. A veiled female withholds herself from that contact and reads our faces, thus gaining power over the rest of us.Choice" cannot be the only consideration. And anyway, there is no evidence that all the women are making rational, independent decisions. As with forced marriages, they can't refuse. Some are blackmailed and others obey because they are too scared to say what they really want. Some are convinced they will go to hell if they show themselves. Some bloody choice.

It sexualises girls and women in the same way as "erotic" garb does and is just as obscene.

When a woman is fully shrouded, how do we know if she is a victim of domestic violence?
 
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EM2

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You're doing your old trick of creating equivalences between situations with no practical or cultural link.
If you say so. All I'm actually doing is stating what I think.
A teacher with a covered face is as useful as a tape recorder at disseminating information. A child has no way of knowing if their reply is accurate, amusing or inappropriate except by the words of a sheeted figure. It's a reduction of the teacher's humanity in a situation where empathy is key.
As far as I am concerned, a teacher can wear what they want, all I would be concerned about is how well they teach. Do they get good results? Do their pupils enjoy their lessons?
A figure performing surgery in a garment the figure does household chores in, is not sterile.
I would agree. But a surgeon is still covered.
I'm not deciding what's appropriate
That's exactly what you are doing, with discussion of dress codes and what teachers shouldn't wear.
I'm suggesting what is inappropriate for practical and cultural reasons, and pointing out the hypocrisy of pursuing a politically correct agenda to its absurd conclusion.
I thought you weren't deciding what is appropriate?
My basic principle for life is 'do what you want, as long as you don't cause harm to unconsenting others'.
 

meridian2

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That's exactly what you are doing, with discussion of dress codes and what teachers shouldn't wear.
Are you saying I have no right to express an opinion on what people wear? I've given reasons why wearing a bag is an unsuitable means of educating young children.
 

AlterEgo

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But unmarried women wear it too.

Whether it is through choice or not is a bit of a red herring. I just don't believe it fits with the established cultural practices in this country and our fundamentals of communicating with each other.
 

EM2

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Are you saying I have no right to express an opinion on what people wear? I've given reasons why wearing a bag is an unsuitable means of educating young children.
You absolutely have a right. But when you claim that you are 'not deciding what's appropriate', and then proclaim what you believe *is* appropriate, it's difficult to take you seriously.
 

meridian2

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You absolutely have a right. But when you claim that you are 'not deciding what's appropriate', and then proclaim what you believe *is* appropriate, it's difficult to take you seriously.
There's a difference between telling people what they should do, and pointing out why some clothes run counter to the best traditions of the British way of life. I don't think burqas should be banned, I do think their use should be on the national agenda and discussion of their use promoted.

I particularly want to show that Britain welcomes difference in a way that Arab countries do not, and for followers of Islam to recognise the fact.
 

GatwickDepress

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They aren't choosing, can't you understand, it's forced the same as FGM which is probably another thing you agree with.

I would say prominent muslim Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has it spot on but no doubt you know better

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibbai-brown-sixteen-reasons-why-i-object-to-this-dangerous-cover-up-2261444.html
One woman's view does not represent the entire Muslim community, especially since she doesn't even like hijab which is a pretty extreme view.

Lots of women find the hijab empowering - look at hijabi fashion, which is now a massive social movement and industry. My girlfriend and I both loved helping each other put on the headscarf, it cemented our identity as Muslims and made us feel like part of the community.
If you don't want to wear hijab, that's cool too. Just don't force others to conform to your views.

Woman should be free to wear what they choose, so I'm going to tell them what to wear. Brilliant.

Oh, and tolerating the burqa is in no way the same as being fine with FGM. I am shocked and disgusted you would even suggest that. You're not a nice person.
 

EM2

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There's a difference between telling people what they should do, and pointing out why some clothes run counter to the best traditions of the British way of life.
I was always under the impression that the best traditions of the British way of life included 'do what you want'.
I don't think burqas should be banned, I do think their use should be on the national agenda and discussion of their use promoted.
*Shrug*
I have countless more important things to be worried about.
I particularly want to show that Britain welcomes difference in a way that Arab countries do not, and for followers of Islam to recognise the fact.
Yes, we welcome difference. So let people be different.
 

meridian2

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I was always under the impression that the best traditions of the British way of life included 'do what you want'.
I disagree, which is why I suggested wearing an SS uniform in Stamford Hill (among many other situations) would be completely inappropriate. It's why political correctness will never replace good manners as the arbiter of good sense on such matters. The more people push the limits, the more likely laws will be introduced.
 

WelshBluebird

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They aren't choosing, can't you understand, it's forced the same as FGM which is probably another thing you agree with.

I would say prominent muslim Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has it spot on but no doubt you know better

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibbai-brown-sixteen-reasons-why-i-object-to-this-dangerous-cover-up-2261444.html

So you are trying to suggest that no Muslim woman chooses, on her own free will, to wear one? That is a bit of a claim to make! And no, I don't agree with FGM, because as the name suggests, it is mutilation (and I hold male circumcision in a similar view - although not as extreme because the act is not as extreme).
 

EM2

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I didn't think it would be necessary to quantify the 'do what you want' statement, as common sense would surely supply that, but it seems not.
For the avoidance of doubt then, 'do what you want but don't cause unreasonable nuisance, or harm to those that haven't consented'.
 

KN1

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So you are trying to suggest that no Muslim woman chooses, on her own free will, to wear one? That is a bit of a claim to make! And no, I don't agree with FGM, because as the name suggests, it is mutilation (and I hold male circumcision in a similar view - although not as extreme because the act is not as extreme).

As has already been said it's the more orthodox families who insist on it and they're in the majority.

You find a muslim woman who loves to be totally hidden and I bet there are a hundred who wish they didn't have to be.
Why were the Syrian muslim women burning them if it is so wonderful.
 

WelshBluebird

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You find a muslim woman who loves to be totally hidden and I bet there are a hundred who wish they didn't have to be.

Which is why, as a free country, we give people the choice!

Why were the Syrian muslim women burning them if it is so wonderful.

Because people like / want different things? Because there is a massive difference between a country forcing you to wear something and you choosing to wear them?
 

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As has already been said it's the more orthodox families who insist on it and they're in the majority.

You find a muslim woman who loves to be totally hidden and I bet there are a hundred who wish they didn't have to be.
Why were the Syrian muslim women burning them if it is so wonderful.

But the fact of the matter is, most niqabs are worn by choice in the UK. That's the individual's choice in the matter, and one which should be respected.

I would still prefer not to see them.
 
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