Ukip Want Employers to be able to discriminate in favour of British workers

[muz379]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...scriminate-between-Britons-and-foreigners.htm

Discriminating employers should be allowed to hire Britons over foreigners, Nigel Farage has said.

The leader of the UK Independence Party said employers “should be much freer to make decisions on who he or she employs”.

Mr Farage said: “I think the situation that we now have, where an employer is not allowed to choose between a British-born person and somebody from Poland, is a ludicrous state of affairs.

“I think that we have taken our relationship with Europe to a level that, frankly, has gone against common sense, and certainly against self-interest.”

Mr Farage added: “I would argue that the law does need changing, and that if an employer wishes to choose, or you can use the word ‘discriminate’ if you want to, but wishes to choose to employ a British-born person, they should be allowed to do so. … I think you should be able to choose on the basis of nationality, yes. I do.

I wonder what jobs it is precisely that Mr Farage is talking about here . Certainly in the city in the employment markets he will be very familiar with the bias is towards white middle class men

I suspect the kind of jobs he is thinking about are those where there are actually no British workers to choose from given that there is actually surely a number of disadvantages to employing a migrant worker including the possibility of limited communication skills , difficulties in obtaining references or any background history .

 

[gordonthemoron]

Surely an employer will choose the best candidate for the job, irrespective of where they come from?

 

[muz379]

Surely an employer will choose the best candidate for the job, irrespective of where they come from?

I think Mr Farage seems to think that if any immigrant applies for it they have got the job .

Thats funny because I seem to remember applying for a job in a shop , at the interview/assessment day type thing they do there was me(white British),another two white British men one in his 40's and one in his early 20's , a white British woman ,a polish man and a British man of Pakistani heritage .

Out of all of us I got the job , and the white British woman was offered a job at another store as well .

 

[BlythPower]

I think the situation that we now have, where an employer is not allowed to choose between a British-born person and somebody from Poland, is a ludicrous state of affairs.

Does anyone know what law there is that requires employers to choose Poles over Britons? Fromage really does come across like a dribbling idiot at times (which makes a change from his usual bong-eyed loon thing).

 

[crehld]

Does anyone know what law there is that requires employers to choose Poles over Britons? Fromage really does come across like a dribbling idiot at times (which makes a change from his usual bong-eyed loon thing).

There is no such law.

 

[tony_mac]

Does anyone know what law there is that requires employers to choose Poles over Britons?

I don't think that is what he meant.

I'm pretty sure he was saying 'an employer is not allowed to choose between a British-born person and somebody from Poland by taking into account their nationality'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone know what law there is that requires employers to choose Poles over Britons? Fromage really does come across like a dribbling idiot at times (which makes a change from his usual bong-eyed loon thing).

I'm not sure Frottage is quite as loony as he sounds, he just knows that his potential voters have a very tenuous grasp on reality.

Employers can choose to employ anyone they want so long as they have the right to work here, as Polish people do. But they have to recruit fairly, that means they can't choose a "British" person just because they don't want a "Polish" person. He's trying to imply that this means employers will choose the immigrant because of "political correctness", without actually saying it because he knows that would be weapons-grade cow manure.

Employers cannot usually recruit non-EU nationals though, unless the job is highly skilled or there is a shortage of EU nationals in that field.

 

[Greenback]

Of course an employer is allowed to choose between a British born person and a Polish born person, choosing the best person for the role is an essential part of the recruitment process. What is he talking about?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Of course an employer is allowed to choose between a British born person and a Polish born person, choosing the best person for the role is an essential part of the recruitment process. What is he talking about?

I think he means you can't choose a Briton over a Pole on the basis that they're British. It's completely ridiculous, if I'm honest.

There is a fair argument to be made that cheap foreign labour undercutting native-born British people is a problem to an extent, but it's certainly not one that will hugely impact on our labour force. All this will do is create problems for immigrants who are already here, and still won't deter more from attempting to arrive.

His comments on "common sense" immigration invariably mean "what is obvious to me and my small world-view". It's well-known that the vast majority of businesses utterly oppose leaving the EU and cutting immigration; if it comes down to a referendum he'll run into enormous problems on that front. As unfortunate as it might be, money talks.

 

[muz379]

There is a fair argument to be made that cheap foreign labour undercutting native-born British people is a problem to an extent, but it's certainly not one that will hugely impact on our labour force. All this will do is create problems for immigrants who are already here, and still won't deter more from attempting to arrive.

There is that argument yes. However that is more likely to be effecting tradespeople where migrant workers are willing to come into the country and undercut British tradesmen and women . Anybody who works for a legitimate employer is guaranteed at least the NMW . The problem of tradesmen being undercut is not going to be solved by changing any employment legislation because these people are self employed

 

[TheKnightWho]

There is that argument yes. However that is more likely to be effecting tradespeople where migrant workers are willing to come into the country and undercut British tradesmen and women . Anybody who works for a legitimate employer is guaranteed at least the NMW . The problem of tradesmen being undercut is not going to be solved by changing any employment legislation because these people are self employed

Well exactly.

And frankly, more competition is undeniably good for the economy. The incentive should be to better educate and better train people in this country, and not to simply stop foreigners from arriving. In many cases, it simply won't work: outside of services and trade, artificially high prices in Europe and America have already driven away manufacturing and primary industries. If we don't want to see this get any worse then we must accept that we're part of an integrated world and adapt ourselves accordingly.

It's obviously not an easy process, but it's one we're going to have to go through if we're not going to come down in flames.

 

[BlythPower]

There is no such law.

No surprise there, really. I wonder why Nige is giving the impression there is..?

 

[Nick W]

If a British and a Polish candidate are equally suited to the role, the law allows businesses to choose whichever would result in the least misrepresentation.

 

[crehld]

No surprise there, really. I wonder why Nige is giving the impression there is..?

As Arctic Troll suggested above, most of the British electorate can't be bothered to figure out how things in the real world work, and our existing political leaders demonstrate a complete incapability to provide any leadership or meaningful communication on the issue. Farage knows this and is very skillful at exploiting it.

Interestingly this goes against Nigel's other policies around reducing the state's role in the economy, promoting the free market and deregulation of employment law, which invariably favours cheap foreign labour over expensive 'British' workers. He of course knows this, but it is the rhetoric over "immigrants taking away our jobs" which wins votes among the politically dissaffected. So basically he's lying to and taking advantages of all those who would vote for him on the platform of 'British jobs for British people'.
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If a British and a Polish candidate are equally suited to the role, the law allows businesses to choose whichever would result in the least misrepresentation.

Not quite; the law merely states you can't choose the British candidate because you have an aversion to the Polish one because they are Polish, or vice versa. If they're equally suited for the role you do what all employers do - choose who impresses you most at interview and who you think has the greatest potential. Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK.

EDIT: Just checked and positive action is only permitted as you say when both candidates are of equal merit. But this is only an option and not a legal requirement.

 

[tbtc]

From glancing at the headlines this morning, I was expecting the "discrimination" argument to be about the merits of positive discrimination (e.g. I think that if you are disabled and qualified to do a job that you apply for then they have to at least grant you an interview), the idea of quotas (a certain number of women on the board of directors), where the can be debate about where to draw the line, where trying to represent one group causes more problems than it solves etc...

...but instead we've got "Nige" campaigning against something that isn't a law anyway - classic Strawman stuff - he's promising to get rid of a bogeyman that doesn't exist.

(I'm not denying that people born overseas don't get a number of jobs, am just saying that presumably they are doing so on merit rather than any conspiracy or law that forbids giving the job to qualified "natives")

I'm not sure Frottage is quite as loony as he sounds, he just knows that his potential voters have a very tenuous grasp on reality

True - he's playing to his crowd - the facts don't matter, what matters is that people believe that (a) there's a law/ conspiracy to give foreign born people jobs and that (b) the bloke who employs his German born wife as secretary is going to be able to overturn that "law".

It doesn't have to be accurate, the important thing is that the message plays to the gallery (a bit like Daily Express front pages).

I wonder what jobs it is precisely that Mr Farage is talking about here . Certainly in the city in the employment markets he will be very familiar with the bias is towards white middle class men

Yes, but those with the greatest priveliges like to think that they are somehow hard done by, I can see that the people voting UKIP (mainly white, mainly of the baby boomer/pensioner generation) want to believe that they've had it tough, want to believe that they are threatened.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes, but those with the greatest priveliges like to think that they are somehow hard done by, I can see that the people voting UKIP (mainly white, mainly of the baby boomer/pensioner generation) want to believe that they've had it tough, want to believe that they are threatened.

Well they are threatened in some sense. They can't dominate the rest of us in society anymore!

It's the same logic some Christians in America use: Christianity is under threat, in the sense that the total Christian domination of the country is under threat.

You're not being discriminated against if all you're being told is that you're not allowed to discriminate against and be prioritised over other people who aren't the same demographic as you!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes, but those with the greatest priveliges like to think that they are somehow hard done by, I can see that the people voting UKIP (mainly white, mainly of the baby boomer/pensioner generation) want to believe that they've had it tough, want to believe that they are threatened.

The fact that some areas that have larger than average UKIP support are areas that have smaller than average numbers of immigrants backs you up there.

 

[ExRes]

Yes, but those with the greatest priveliges like to think that they are somehow hard done by, I can see that the people voting UKIP (mainly white, mainly of the baby boomer/pensioner generation) want to believe that they've had it tough, want to believe that they are threatened.

What absolute and utter garbage, how old are you and what factual experience do you have to come out with this fairy story. The only ones that are whining about being hard done by are the current working generations who THINK that those of us born in the 40s/50s/60s have put nothing into the country and expect other people to pay for us, WRONG, we've paid from day one, 40+ years of tax and national insurance contributions mean we have a right to have our say, for your information that is very different to thinking we're threatened
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Well they are threatened in some sense. They can't dominate the rest of us in society anymore!

More garbage, I'd love to be around when you're 50/60 years old and see what you've got to say then

 

[TheKnightWho]

What absolute and utter garbage, how old are you and what factual experience do you have to come out with this fairy story. The only ones that are whining about being hard done by are the current working generations who THINK that those of us born in the 40s/50s/60s have put nothing into the country and expect other people to pay for us, WRONG, we've paid from day one, 40+ years of tax and national insurance contributions mean we have a right to have our say, for your information that is very different to thinking we're threatened
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More garbage, I'd love to be around when you're 50/60 years old and see what you've got to say then

No-one is denying that you've put a lot into the country. What they're saying is that you are not being oppressed by not being allowed to oppress the rest of us in society by being prioritised.

And seriously, claiming that I'll be selfish in 40/50 years just shows quite how self-centred you're being over this. Not everyone thinks like you!

 

[WelshBluebird]

WRONG, we've paid from day one, 40+ years of tax and national insurance contributions

Which has long since been spent.
It is the younger generation who are paying for your pensions now, so I would be nice to them!!

 

[deltic]

I only wish we had some British workers applying to whom we could offer jobs - recent graduate interviews we did out of 20 people interviewed we had only about 3-4 British passport holders - we even had two people fly in from continental Europe even though we dont reimburse travelling expenses.

 

[theboywho]

The only ones that are whining about being hard done by are the current working generations who THINK that those of us born in the 40s/50s/60s have put nothing into the country and expect other people to pay for us, WRONG, we've paid from day one, 40+ years of tax and national insurance contributions mean we have a right to have our say, for your information that is very different to thinking we're threatened

I agree with your sentiment however I am increasingly stunned by the volume of people from this generation who feel that they have reached an age where responsibility and accountability are no longer necessary. Let's not forget that generation is living in the wake of some of the decisions and omissions they made some twenty/thirty years ago. Granted times were different, however things like the National Curriculum spring immediately to mind.

 

[Greenback]

I wonder if Nige would support a Plaid Cymru proposal to prevent English incomers competing with local Welsh natives for any jobs that do happen to come up in Wales. Not that there would be many vacancies, of course.

 

[crehld]

The only ones that are whining about being hard done by are the current working generations who THINK that those of us born in the 40s/50s/60s have put nothing into the country and expect other people to pay for us

Says the one whinging! No one's questioning what your generation has put in. Unfortunately what you put in does not get banked into some sort of personal bank account to be drawn down on later, it gets spent by the government of the day. So what you paid in the 1950s was spent in the 1950s. That's how it works. So those who benefit from a state pension, increased tax allowances, free bus passes and all the rest of it happen to be paid by those paying taxes at the moment - the vast majority of which happen to be those working.

WRONG, we've paid from day one, 40+ years of tax and national insurance contributions mean we have a right to have our say, for your information that is very different to thinking we're threatened

This does not give you a right to have your say. Your status as a human being in a democratic society gives you a right to have your say. Age, the amount you've put in or anything else has nothing to do with it.

 

[ExRes]

I agree with your sentiment however I am increasingly stunned by the volume of people from this generation who feel that they have reached an age where responsibility and accountability are no longer necessary. Let's not forget that generation is living in the wake of some of the decisions and omissions they made some twenty/thirty years ago. Granted times were different, however things like the National Curriculum spring immediately to mind.

Let's also not forget that many of us are still paying, both my wife and myself still pay tax on our pensions, we also pay full council tax while we have worked and paid for the property we live in, again at no cost to the public purse

I've no doubt that there are people in their 50s/60s/70s who sit back and expect others to pay for them, what about those in their 20s and 30s, in a generation where the 'gap year' and visiting Thailand is considered far more important than getting a fill in job while looking for a career path

My generation subsidised our parents and grandparents, their decisions and omissions included little money wasters like two world wars and I can honestly say that I never once heard any of my generation complain about doing our bit to look after them, why is the modern generation so selfish ?
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Says the one whinging! No one's questioning what your generation has put in. Unfortunately what you put in does not get banked into some sort of personal bank account to be drawn down on later, it gets spent by the government of the day. So what you paid in the 1950s was spent in the 1950s. That's how it works. So those who benefit from a state pension, increased tax allowances, free bus passes and all the rest of it happen to be paid by those paying taxes at the moment - the vast majority of which happen to be those working.



This does not give you a right to have your say. Your status as a human being in a democratic society gives you a right to have your say. Age, the amount you've put in or anything else has nothing to do with it.

I'm not whinging at all, I'm stating facts
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Which has long since been spent.
It is the younger generation who are paying for your pensions now, so I would be nice to them!!

My pension is paying paid for by the contributions I made to my workplace pensions actually

 

[deltic]

My pension is paying paid for by the contributions I made to my workplace pensions actually

I would be absolutely amazed if it is - unless you argue your employer's contribution was effectively what they would have paid you on top of your salary if they didnt offer a pension scheme. If you have a defined benefit pension scheme it is undoubtedly being heavily subsidised by present employees - if you have a defined contribution scheme then yes you are getting back the return based on your and your employer contributions.

 

[CC 72100]

I've no doubt that there are people in their 50s/60s/70s who sit back and expect others to pay for them, what about those in their 20s and 30s, in a generation where the 'gap year' and visiting Thailand is considered far more important than getting a fill in job while looking for a career path

Nothing like a good bit of tarnishing a whole generation with the same brush...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Nothing like a good bit of tarnishing a whole generation with the same brush...

It's almost like people think people old is an excuse for being a bigot.

And that says nothing about the UKIPers who expect to get priority by virtue of where they were born (what a good person you are for being lucky enough to be born on this island :roll: ) or whatever.

 

[yorksrob]

And that says nothing about the UKIPers who expect to get priority by virtue of where they were born (what a good person you are for being lucky enough to be born on this island :roll: ) or whatever.

To be fair, the EU also operates on the basis of giving priority to those born within its geographical area. Just ask those trying to get into Ceuta or Mellilla from Africa. This seems to be a feature of the majority of political states, not just UKIPers.

Not saying I agree with Farage's latest policy announcement mind you.

 

[ExRes]

Nothing like a good bit of tarnishing a whole generation with the same brush...

What, like tarnishing the 'baby boomer' generation with the responsibility for all the ills this country suffers, is that what you mean ?