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Ukraine-Where will it end?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Putin was playing the "strong versus weak" power game where if he made another move officially as he did in the Crimea, this time towards Eastern Ukraine and the West did not respond, he would have taken his move to have shown NATO weaknesses, whereas a response from NATO would have meant the status-quo was still retained without him losing face.
 
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kylemore

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Oh Oh - Porky's backtracking.

A wee phone call from his Masters perchance?
 

Aictos

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Similarly have the war criminals in Donetsk been brought to their senses.

We can only hope.

I agree, remember they illegally took power from the rightful government in Kiev in Eastern parts of Ukraine and not forgetting the separatists with the Crimea referendum asking residents of the locality if they wanted to join the Russian Federation had an official turnout of 83 per cent and resulted in a 96% affirmative vote but has been condemned by the EU, the United States, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar officials as contrary to Ukraine's constitution and to international law.

If they wanted to secede from the Ukraine then they ought to have followed the Ukrainian constitution, for not doing so they are terrorists and should be treated as such!
 

kylemore

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Putin cannot be seen to making any formal comments that will affect any ceasefire as he is still adamant in his statements that there are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine.

Maybe because they're not there?

The ordinary Ukrainian forces were so thoroughly de-moralised because they knew they were fighting for criminal scum set over them by outside forces that they were not willing to waste their lives anymore.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree, remember they illegally took power from the rightful government in Kiev in Eastern parts of Ukraine and not forgetting the separatists with the Crimea referendum asking residents of the locality if they wanted to join the Russian Federation had an official turnout of 83 per cent and resulted in a 96% affirmative vote but has been condemned by the EU, the United States, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar officials as contrary to Ukraine's constitution and to international law.

If they wanted to secede from the Ukraine then they ought to have followed the Ukrainian constitution, for not doing so they are terrorists and should be treated as such!

People have the Right to stand up to Tyrants.

It is the "Terrorists" in Kiev who have been extensively targeting civilians - a war crime more or less completely unreported by the BBC
 

Monty

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Maybe because they're not there?

The ordinary Ukrainian forces were so thoroughly de-moralised because they knew they were fighting for criminal scum set over them by outside forces that they were not willing to waste their lives anymore.

So it's nothing to do with the fact the morale in the Ukrainian armed forces has been rock bottom for some time now? Poor training and pay with obsolete and poorly maintained equipment won't win the hearts and minds of the men in uniform.

People have the Right to stand up to Tyrants.

You're absolutely right, Yanukovych and Putin are not beyond reproach in this matter either.

It is the "Terrorists" in Kiev who have been extensively targeting civilians - a war crime more or less completely unreported by the BBC

There is a difference between an army engaging an enemy force in a civilian area where civilians are unfortunately killed to an army actively targeting the civilian population. The army in Ukraine is acting out of military necessity and is not trying to murder unarmed civilians.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I think that will have be a matter of opinion.

So, the "Russia Today" position is that there are no weapons in the hands of the separatists (who you contend are "unarmed civilians)". If that was the case, what have the separatists been using all these past weeks when confronting the Ukrainian armed forces ? Potato pans ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Q.....What do you call a driver of a Russian "humanitarian" truck in a 100 vehicle convoy ?

A.....A member of the Berkut Russian special forces...:D:D:D
 

class26

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Yes and no doubt the aforesaid General will not turn down a nice earning "Consultancy" with BAE or whoever when he retires as reward for his part in persuading the countries in question to spend Billions re-arming to counter this non-existent "Threat".

The only force that's "Invaded" Eastern Europe is NATO itself!


That statement is 100% inaccurate.

My wife is Ukrainian, from the east and very close to where the trouble now is. The family at this very moment are debating if to flee to the west of Ukraine for safety. Her son (aged 25) is in the Ukraine army facing at this very moment in time an infintely better equipped russian army.

Her son in law over there, also in the Ukraine army is based in the port of their town (Berdyansk). Only a few days ago he inspected an innocent looking ship, with food stuffs from russia. It was loaded to the gunnels with weapons for the rebels and fortunately this was one cargo that never made it to its intended recipients. (Quote Putin - we are not supplying weapons !)

The Ukrainians are DESPERATE for NATO to help them so do NOT ever say on here that NATO is meddling or has invaded Ukraine. That may be your opinion but it is NOT anywhere remotely near the truth. If you want to know anything by all means ask me. Any one on this site, if you are interested please ask

There are all kinds of stories, and propaganda as to what this is all about . The simple truth is this -

Ukraine has been governed by crooks and thieves ever since independence and even before. These people have had their fingers in the till to an eye watering degree. Yanukovitch is now known to have stolen in his 3 short years as president $70,000,000,000 from the state. That is 70 billion. Why does any one person need that much money ? His official salary as president was $100,000 per annum yet his bill for chandeliers alone was $34,000,000 ! Obscene ? Would we stand for this ? So why be surprised when they kick him out.

The childrens hospital, being built in Kyiv had to be abandoned because of lack of funds yet the president of the country had all the funds in his pocket. Now that`s real corruption on an epic scale !

That`s why the people revolted, It was nothing to do with the west or with NATO. These people just want a better life, they simply want to get on and build their country without corruption and given half a chance will do so but putin will not allow this. Why ?

Because he is terrified that if the EU comes in, companies will have to conform to western standards which will expose the corruption which as you see is endemic. If this happens in Ukraine it will surely happen in russia because as we have seen the borders are very porous. Thats why the EU is not welcome in Ukraine.

You may wonder why the Ukraine army was so ineffective in Crimea and did not fight. That was because it was totally infiltrated by russians at all levels. There was no command structure that could be relied on. They have done a brilliant job to even get where they have now and without putin would have defeated the rebels weeks ago. They are fighting for our values. if they loose we all will loose and putin will not stop. Do not make the mistake of thinking this is the other side of the world and it isn`t our fight. It is very close to us and could easily come a whole lot closer. Putin is testing NATO all the time and without a strong response NOW he will just keep going.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another point.

The so called "humanitarian convoy" was nothing of the sort. Many of the lorries went into Ukraine almost empty, many with just a few bottles of water, a few packets of flour. No, this was to take back to russia the dead bodies of their soldiers.

Folks, do not ever believe what comes out of the mouths of russian politicians. They speak in riddles and half truths and have totally redefined the meaning of the term "to lie". If they say up they mean down, if they say right, they mean left, if they say good they mean bad. Russia is now a rogue state and will remain so until putin is got rid of.

Putin has planned this project for years. First he gradually takes over all media so now the kremlin controls ALL TV, ALL radio and ALL newspapers. That is fact.
When you read that putin has an 85% approval rating that is because the russians are brain washed by propaganda. That propaganda even extends to the west. Did anyone you know that the kremlin is funding anti fracking groups over here ? You may not agree with fracking, that is not the point, the russian propaganda is everywhere. If you don`t believe me just spend 5 minutes watching "Russia Today" . Why have so many journalists resigned from well paid TV jobs on this channel? Because they refuse to pedal putins lies anymore.
 

kylemore

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That statement is 100% inaccurate.

My wife is Ukrainian, from the east and very close to where the trouble now is. The family at this very moment are debating if to flee to the west of Ukraine for safety. Her son (aged 25) is in the Ukraine army facing at this very moment in time an infintely better equipped russian army.

Her son in law over there, also in the Ukraine army is based in the port of their town (Berdyansk). Only a few days ago he inspected an innocent looking ship, with food stuffs from russia. It was loaded to the gunnels with weapons for the rebels and fortunately this was one cargo that never made it to its intended recipients. (Quote Putin - we are not supplying weapons !)

The Ukrainians are DESPERATE for NATO to help them so do NOT ever say on here that NATO is meddling or has invaded Ukraine. That may be your opinion but it is NOT anywhere remotely near the truth. If you want to know anything by all means ask me. Any one on this site, if you are interested please ask

There are all kinds of stories, and propaganda as to what this is all about . The simple truth is this -

Ukraine has been governed by crooks and thieves ever since independence and even before. These people have had their fingers in the till to an eye watering degree. Yanukovitch is now known to have stolen in his 3 short years as president $70,000,000,000 from the state. That is 70 billion. Why does any one person need that much money ? His official salary as president was $100,000 per annum yet his bill for chandeliers alone was $34,000,000 ! Obscene ? Would we stand for this ? So why be surprised when they kick him out.

The childrens hospital, being built in Kyiv had to be abandoned because of lack of funds yet the president of the country had all the funds in his pocket. Now that's real corruption on an epic scale !

That's why the people revolted, It was nothing to do with the west or with NATO. These people just want a better life, they simply want to get on and build their country without corruption and given half a chance will do so but putin will not allow this. Why ?

Because he is terrified that if the EU comes in, companies will have to conform to western standards which will expose the corruption which as you see is endemic. If this happens in Ukraine it will surely happen in russia because as we have seen the borders are very porous. Thats why the EU is not welcome in Ukraine.

You may wonder why the Ukraine army was so ineffective in Crimea and did not fight. That was because it was totally infiltrated by russians at all levels. There was no command structure that could be relied on. They have done a brilliant job to even get where they have now and without putin would have defeated the rebels weeks ago. They are fighting for our values. if they loose we all will loose and putin will not stop. Do not make the mistake of thinking this is the other side of the world and it isn't our fight. It is very close to us and could easily come a whole lot closer. Putin is testing NATO all the time and without a strong response NOW he will just keep going.

I think you have a very Rose coloured view of what the "West" and Nato are about.

I agree that ordinary Ukranians are pawns in a game that most of them want no part of.

The USA used your understandable desire for better governance to install even more corrupt elements that would support the USA's geopolitical endeavours - the ultimate target is not even Russia it's China.

Ukraine and the Post Soviet Russian State managed to get by for 20 years or so without the Russians invading you, is there any reason to think that would not have continued if the USA had not interfered with you with the express purpose of using you to bring about the destruction of Russia as a geo-political rival and a stepping stone to containing China?

Be very clear, the USA and their instrument NATO do not care about you, they are using you.
 

Oswyntail

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I think you have a very Rose coloured view of what the "West" and Nato are about.
Pot, kettle, black.

Ukraine and the Post Soviet Russian State managed to get by for 20 years or so without the Russians invading you....
Could this be because of a string of Russian puppets installed in Kiev? Where did the last one run to again?
...if the USA had not interfered with you with the express purpose of using you to bring about the destruction of Russia as a geo-political rival and a stepping stone to containing China?
And where exactly has that been expressed (other than on RT)?
 

class26

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I think you have a very Rose coloured view of what the "West" and Nato are about.

I agree that ordinary Ukranians are pawns in a game that most of them want no part of.

The USA used your understandable desire for better governance to install even more corrupt elements that would support the USA's geopolitical endeavours - the ultimate target is not even Russia it's China.

Ukraine and the Post Soviet Russian State managed to get by for 20 years or so without the Russians invading you, is there any reason to think that would not have continued if the USA had not interfered with you with the express purpose of using you to bring about the destruction of Russia as a geo-political rival and a stepping stone to containing China?

Be very clear, the USA and their instrument NATO do not care about you, they are using you.

You have completely missed the point. Did you actually read what I wrote ?

That wasn`t opinion, it was based on Ukrainians living there now, today. How many times have you been there ? How many Ukrainians have you spoken tom recently ? None I suspect so where does your opinion come from ? It is opinion only without a shred of fact.

Perhaps NATO has other motives but the result of NATO helping Ukraine would be to kick out an evil dictator. You have no proof and anyway ,the secretary general of NATO is Swedish, not known to be the most aggressive nation on this earth.

I ask you to imagine living in such a country as Ukraine before the revolution where it didn`t matter how hard you worked, the corruption would soak the last drop out of you.

I wanted to open a restaurant over there to help my wifes family, to create decent jobs for them, I was told don`t bother, they will not let you. How ? By inventing spurious hygiene rules or any other dubious regulation to prevent me. The existing restaurants are controlled by local mafias and will not permit any opposition. Now do you doubt what I say ?
You are speaking without any real knowledge, just your opinion whereas I am speaking from actual experienced and fact from being in Ukraine, being married to one and having family over there. Anyway , what does it matter if NATO was there ? The Ukrainians WANT them.
 

kylemore

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You have completely missed the point. Did you actually read what I wrote ?

That wasn't opinion, it was based on Ukrainians living there now, today. How many times have you been there ? How many Ukrainians have you spoken tom recently ? None I suspect so where does your opinion come from ? It is opinion only without a shred of fact.

Perhaps NATO has other motives but the result of NATO helping Ukraine would be to kick out an evil dictator. You have no proof and anyway ,the secretary general of NATO is Swedish, not known to be the most aggressive nation on this earth.

I ask you to imagine living in such a country as Ukraine before the revolution where it didn't matter how hard you worked, the corruption would soak the last drop out of you.

I wanted to open a restaurant over there to help my wifes family, to create decent jobs for them, I was told don't bother, they will not let you. How ? By inventing spurious hygiene rules or any other dubious regulation to prevent me. The existing restaurants are controlled by local mafias and will not permit any opposition. Now do you doubt what I say ?
You are speaking without any real knowledge, just your opinion whereas I am speaking from actual experienced and fact from being in Ukraine, being married to one and having family over there. Anyway , what does it matter if NATO was there ? The Ukrainians WANT them.

Well there is struggle going on in this world and having looked at as many facts as are available to me I don't want to be on the same side as the USA and NATO or more accurately the forces behind the figureheads like the Secretary General (who's Danish) and Obama and Cameron. The USA and it's lackeys have killed MILLIONS in the last two decades for the basest of reasons - he may not be as pure as the driven snow but how many MILLIONS has Putin's Russia killed?
 

Monty

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What's your source for this tripe? And Putin being an exKGB spy I imagine has pulled the trigger personally a few times unlike the likes of Obama and Cameron etc.. You also forget Russia has so had it's own dirty little wars recently including twice in Chechnya..
 
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kylemore

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What's your source for this tripe? And Putin being an exKGB spy I imagine has pulled the trigger personally a few times unlike the likes of Obama and Cameron etc.. You also forget Russia has so had it's own dirty little wars recently including twice in Chechnya..

Imagine all you like but I don't have to imagine the death toll in Iraq which dwarfs that of, as you say, Russia's dirty little wars - you forget that I said that Putin is not as pure as the driven snow.
 

Monty

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While many innocents have been killed in the war in Iraq it's hardly the MILLIONS you make it out to be, stop being so hysterical. Enough people have been killed in both conflicts to make the USA and Russia equally as guilty.
 

class26

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While many innocents have been killed in the war in Iraq it's hardly the MILLIONS you make it out to be, stop being so hysterical. Enough people have been killed in both conflicts to make the USA and Russia equally as guilty.

Iraq was wrong, we should not have gone there, I think that is reasonably agreed isn`t it ? Just because Iraq was wrong it doesn`t mean that we should ignore a fight when it is right.

There is much well researched writing about putin and putins russia if you care to read it. These are not opinions but as I say, well researched and based on factual evidence. One book i would urge anyone to read is called "The Putin Corporation" It is just sickening. The level of corruption in russia is unbelievable. If it was in a movie you wouldn`t believe it. That is why the Ukrainians threw out their president and why they do not want to be part of russia sphere of influence. I am in touch with Ukrainians in Crimea , they know it was wrong, the referendum was a sham but putin was swift, the west dithered. We should not allow this cancer to spread any further. It is a disgrace to the human race

If Ukraine fails it ultimately goes the other way. 50,000,000 people doomed to a life of poverty caused by endemic corruption. This is a sizeable country, much better to have them with us surely ?

Now this is a true statistic. In 1991, at the end of the USSR the economies of Poland and Ukraine were level. Now, just 23 years later Poland is 3 times richer than Ukraine. This is all due to bad government and corruption.
Many Ukrainians go into Poland and see this, see the difference, see what a free economy can achieve and they want it as well.
 

Johnuk123

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[youtube]9uNsXEu8ljM[/youtube]

Nigel Farage telling the EU parliament the truth.
 
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bussnapperwm

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What would Russia Today say about this what was reported by the bbc on Thursday then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29249642

BBC team has been attacked in the southern Russian city of Astrakhan.

They had gone to investigate reports of Russian servicemen being killed near the border with Ukraine.

The team's cameraman was beaten up and the camera smashed during the attack. The recorded material left in the car had been deleted, the team found after returning from the police station.

The BBC has lodged a formal protest with Russia over the incident and called for an investigation.

The authorities in Astrakhan have launched a criminal case into the attack, Russia's Interfax news agency reports.

Memory cards wiped
The team had just left a cafe in the town when at least three aggressive individuals approached our car, confronting and attacking us, says BBC Moscow correspondent Steve Rosenberg.

Using physical violence the men grabbed the camera, smashed it on the road, and then escaped with it in a getaway car.

During the scuffle the BBC cameraman was knocked to the ground and beaten.

The team is now safe and back in Moscow.

Following the attack, the team spent more than four hours being questioned at a local police station.

During that time, the recording equipment left behind in the car was tampered with, our correspondent says.

Map of Russia
The hard drive of the main computer as well as several memory cards with video material had been wiped clean.

Interfax quoted the head of the Astrakhan Region interior ministry's press office Petr Rusanov as saying "a criminal case" had been launched after police had received a report of an attack on a cameraman who had been "beaten and robbed by unidentified persons".

The BBC said it deplored the act of violence, which it described as "part of a co-ordinated attempt to stop accredited news journalists reporting a legitimate news story".

It has called on the Russian authorities to condemn the assault and launch a "thorough investigation".

An official with the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said the attack was "utterly and totally unacceptable".

"What we are witnessing is a clear sign of harassment of free media in Russia," added the OSCE's representative on media freedom, Dunja Mijatovic.
 

brendap

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The company I work with actually hired some freelancers in Ukraine before the conflict began and still keep in contact with them as as far as they are concerned, this is not over by a long shot. ( They are still preparing for the little green men to appear apparently).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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When this latest attempt at a ceasefire was finally agreed, the leaders of the pro-Russian forces who had surrounded the Ukrainian army enclave in the key strategic town of Debaltseve said whatever had been agreed in the ceasefire meetings would not stop them continuing to press home their attacks until they had they had totally defeated the opposing forces.

This now appears to be the case in reality and last night, a three-way conferencing telephonic meeting took place between Germany, Ukraine and Russian officials to discuss this matter, but one cannot but feel that Russia will only be paying their usual lip-service to such matters, with Putin being his usual self..:roll:
 
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