Unable to book a Southern + London Midland Only Advance at ticket office

[gray1404]

I had great problems booking an Advance ticket today.

Liverpool Lime Street to Brighton on the 9.34pm on 07 April 2015
Departs Arrives By Reservations
09:34 - Liverpool Lime Street 11:18 - Birmingham New Street Train (LONDON MIDLAND) Reserved - no seat allocated.
11:33 - Birmingham New Street 13:04 - Milton Keynes Central Train (LONDON MIDLAND) Reserved - no seat allocated.
13:13 - Milton Keynes Central 14:33 - Clapham Junction Train (SOUTHERN) Reservation not possible.
14:43 - Clapham Junction 15:31 - Brighton Train (SOUTHERN) Reserved - no seat allocated.

Returning on 11 April 2015
13:25 - Brighton 14:20 - Clapham Junction Train (SOUTHERN) Reserved - no seat allocated.
14:39 - Clapham Junction 16:00 - Milton Keynes Central Train (SOUTHERN) Reservation not possible.
16:19 - Milton Keynes Central 17:35 - Stafford Train (LONDON MIDLAND) Reserved - no seat allocated.
18:10 - Stafford 19:14 - Liverpool Lime Street Train (LONDON MIDLAND) Reserved - no seat allocated.

I wanted to book the following Advance (Southern and London Midland only) ticket with a railcard. At £7.25 and the same for the way back. (i.e. 2 advance singles)
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?...ert=on&flow=1&multi=0&fare=0&rte=7779&tkt=SCV

I had a Rail Travel Voucher for £13.35 so I went to the booking office at Southport station to try and book the ticket. Before I went into the station I checked on Virgin Trains to see if the fare was still available on my phone. To display the fare I had to look up single fares and click the link at the bottom of the page to display slower trains with cheaper fares. The fare was listed so I clicked on avaliable trains and then the £7.25 fare came up against the above.

The staff were hopeless and insisted that the fare was not coming up on their system. The first person I spoke to got short and bad tempered with me (i.e. stressed over this matter). I asked to speak to the Retail Manager and he was exactly the same. He made up an excuse that some TOCs hold back advance fares to sell themselves and I'd have to book this with London Midland directly and then said it must be an online only fare. I was given totally incorrect information. He looked on the computer and he said that the fare had "gone" - but in reality he was only giving me the faster journeys via London with VT so of course this fare would not come up. He said their system had no way of searching by lowest fares. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Would there be a certain way on their system they would have to search to get this fare to display? They appeared to have only limited knowledge and there are clearly some lack of training issues combined with non existent customer service.

When I had come out of the station I phoned National Rail Enquirers and the person I spoke to confirmed the fare was still available. I then phoned Virgin East Coast telesales, London Midland Telesales and finally Southern telesales. I was told exactly the same thing by all 3 telesales. That the fare I wanted was not available and that to travel on the above trains I would need to get an Off Peak Return and expressly stated that the Advance ticket at £7.25 is no longer available. (For the record I did have them search for single journeys also).

I've just returned home now I logged onto East Midland Trains (as use their cashback service) and book 2 x advance singles (one in each direction) at £7.25 each way. Again, I could only get that fare to display by displaying single fares looking for cheaper ones on slower routes. I feel very let down by the TOCs for the misinformation they have given me on the telephone. Moreover, very let down by Merseyrail that I was unable to use the Rail Travel Voucher today and have had to buy the tickets on my card.

Talk about an example of the passengers wanted to book tickets at the station not getting the cheapest tickets.

 

[Hadders]

There are many excellent booking clerks around the network who relish the opportunity of doing something a bit different to selling a cheap day return to London, Manchester etc.

However there are also a number who lack knowledge or are uninterested in anything other than the most basic of things. This problem isn't unique to the railways, it happens in all areas of life. The reason is that employers generally try and do things on the cheap, fail to recruit employees with the correct behaviours, invest far too little in their training and fail to monitor and deal effectively with poor performance.

What I have found over the years is that you have to be prepared to shop around to get fares that are a bit different to the norm. Eventually you'll find a good clerk and know who to go to for something a bit more complicated than normal. Is it right - no, but sadly that's the way it is.

Also, in your case I think how you ask for the ticket you want can assist the staff in trying to find it. For example, I would say it's routed 'Southern and London Midland' and is 'via Kensington Olympia'. I'd be interested to know whether you did this or whether you just quoted the times of the trains you wanted.

I often find this type of fare is best booked on-line. I know you wouldn't have been able to use your RTV but I'm sure you could have found a use for it on a more simple fare in the future.

 

[185143]

Im on the 09:34 on Tuesday if you want to meet up

Back in topic, I booked an advance from Alnmouth to Darlington last saturday from Walton. The clerk was more than happy to find it, and I can't believe they sell much else than saveaways and Merseyrail travel tickets!

I also used an RTV in the process.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks, does anyone know what would need to be done for the booking office staff to be able to find the correct trains for the £7.25 advance fares on their system - so I can actually be sold the right ticket?

I have written a complaint to Merseyrail about what happened at their Southport booking office and also to Virgin Trains East Coast, London Midland and Southern because their telesales lines were unable to find and sell me this fare either.





(Sidenote, Hi 185143, that would have been great! But the thing is I was booking the ticket for my cousin as he'll be the one traveling Maybe next time though!

 

[Hadders]

I would ask them to look up journeys via Kensington Olympia and specify that you're after fares routed Southern and London Midland only

The fares should then show.

You have the same issues when booking these fares in-line as well as booking engines generally look for the fastest route, which in this case will be via Euston and using Virgin. You've got to input something different to force it to look for the cheaper fare.

 

[gray1404]

To display the £7.25 on the Virgin Trains website or Thetrainline or East Midlands Trains, I had to look up single fares and click the link at the bottom of the page to display slower trains with cheaper fares. The fare was listed so I clicked on available trains and then the £7.25 fare came up against the above. On Southern, TPE and London Midland, you do the normal search then along the left hand side filter, you check the box show tickets "Southern and London Midland only" and it will appear.

I have just done a search via Kensington Olympia and the problem there is it is still displaying the VT flow fares on the fastest journey. Ie. London Midland to Crewe, VT to Milton Keynes and then the remainder of the journey with Southern.

But there must be a way for ticket office staff to be able to get the £7.25 fare to show on their system - is there not a way for them to search by cheapest fare i.e. like on the VT website?

 

[Hadders]

Trainline based booking engines have the 'search for chaper or slower fares' option which is useful (on of the few benefits of train line based systems imo).

On webtis booking sites enter via Kensington Olympia then click the alternative routes option on the left hand side and click Southern and London Midland. It's a bit of a faff - it's far slower on Southern and London Midland and why when you specify via Kensington Olympia it still defaults to Virgin as it is quicker that way and Webtis will primarily search for quickest journey times.

I don't think stations have the facility to automatically search for the cheapest fare. That's why you need to 'force' the routing using via Kensington Olympia and then Southern and London Midland.

To be honest, not withstanding the cheap price, it's painfully slow and there would be very few people wanting that routing.

 

[gray1404]

but then how do you prevent it from still only giving the fastest route, even when you do enter something in "via", at a ticket office? (able to do it on Webtis online using the filter function) [i.e. see above, it will just route Liverpool to Crewe with LM, then to Milton Keynes with VT then the remainder with Southern - thus baring the lowest fares due to the VT sector)

 

[Hadders]

I don't know - perhaps one of our members who works in a booking office could advise.

All I know is that when I've had similar issues in the past the (excellent) clerk I go to for my complicated ticketing needs has always been able to find it by entering various via points etc. I've never failed to get exactly what I need and he does seem to like the challenge of assisting me! I've usually done my homework first though so I can usually help him out with the routings etc.

 

[RJ]

I'm back in the ticket office tomorrow morning so I'll have a look then. I suspect having Olympia as a via point, Queens Park and London Terminals as excluded stations and excluding Virgin as a TOC would do it. That's if selecting the fare with that route and requesting a valid itinerary on that basis doesn't work!

 

[tsr]

Excluding trains through Battersea Park and Norwood Junction might also work, if you can do that.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks guys! That would be great if you could check tomorrow. I feel like I am up against 2 issues here: -

1. knowing how to input it into the system at a ticket office so it brings up the right fare
2. finding a member of Merseyrail staff who is willing and able to do it - I wonder if they lack knowledge

 

[RJ]

Here we go. It's possible to bring the journeys up, but the Advance is no longer available for the outward journey, only the return. Feel free to print these out if it helps.

Journeys
Criteria

He looked on the computer and he said that the fare had "gone" - but in reality he was only giving me the faster journeys via London with VT so of course this fare would not come up. He said their system had no way of searching by lowest fares. Can anyone shed any light on this?

If they were using the same Journey Planner software, this can be done by selecting the desired ticket, then clicking "Get journeys".

 

[causton]

Christ, Tribute isn't that fancy looking!

However, on Tribute I could simply click on that fare you asked for, click the Quota button and it would plan journeys only valid on that fare, therefore it should come up with the correct itinerary. Not back in till Wednesday though...

 

[Haywain]

Christ, Tribute isn't that fancy looking!

However, on Tribute I could simply click on that fare you asked for, click the Quota button and it would plan journeys only valid on that fare, therefore it should come up with the correct itinerary. Not back in till Wednesday though...

That must be a different (and better) version of Tribute! In Tribute v12 I can get the fares to show by excluding Euston from the journey and excluding travel on all TOCs except Southern and London Midland. I can say with some confidence and sadness that many staff would find that far too complicated, even if they had any idea how to do it. And I am not suggesting that it is a training issue - it is more an attitude and enthusiasm issue.

 

[wumpty]

Some Advance Southern/LM fares will only show on Tribute if you specify the exact origin station.

Eg. Input Liverpool Stations you only get Any Permitted, VTWC, or XC fares. If you put in Liverpool Lime Street you'll instead get the Southern&Lon Mid fares.

It's also a problem when searching for Birmingham to Brighton.

If the clerk inputted Liv stations as his origin the fare you wanted just won't show, regardless of what operators you've included!

 

[Hadders]

That must be a different (and better) version of Tribute! In Tribute v12 I can get the fares to show by excluding Euston from the journey and excluding travel on all TOCs except Southern and London Midland. I can say with some confidence and sadness that many staff would find that far too complicated, even if they had any idea how to do it. And I am not suggesting that it is a training issue - it is more an attitude and enthusiasm issue.

This is why you sometimes need to assist staff!

If you say there's a fare at £7.25 then in fairness to the staff it'll be like looking for a needle in a haystack, particularly if it's something they wouldn't routinely sell.

Give them a couple of prompts, in this case via Kensington and using Southern and London Midland only and hey presto it'll show!

 

[causton]

That must be a different (and better) version of Tribute! In Tribute v12 I can get the fares to show by excluding Euston from the journey and excluding travel on all TOCs except Southern and London Midland. I can say with some confidence and sadness that many staff would find that far too complicated, even if they had any idea how to do it. And I am not suggesting that it is a training issue - it is more an attitude and enthusiasm issue.

Definitely know what you mean by the last sentence!


Believe mine is v14, but I trained on v13 and they were both the same. All I do is type in the origin, destination, date, time, and Status (Public, Railcards etc)... all the fares come up in columns and if I click on any of the fares in the Southern + LM Only Advance whatever it is abbreviated to, then press F4 it will come up with the Quota screen and show me journeys and availability. Not sure about other versions though!

 

[RJ]

By default my machine routes the outward journey direct down the Trent Valley with a change at Watford Junction, hence why I used Milton Keynes as a stop point with a 9 minute changeover.

 

[causton]

That must be a different (and better) version of Tribute! In Tribute v12 I can get the fares to show by excluding Euston from the journey and excluding travel on all TOCs except Southern and London Midland. I can say with some confidence and sadness that many staff would find that far too complicated, even if they had any idea how to do it. And I am not suggesting that it is a training issue - it is more an attitude and enthusiasm issue.

Definitely know what you mean by the last sentence!


Believe mine is v14, but I trained on v13 and they were both the same. All I do is type in the origin, destination, date, time, and Status (Public, Railcards etc)... all the fares come up in columns and if I click on any of the fares in the Southern + LM Only Advance whatever it is abbreviated to, then press F4 it will come up with the Quota screen and show me journeys and availability. Not sure about other versions though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By default my machine routes the outward journey direct down the Trent Valley with a change at Watford Junction, hence why I used Milton Keynes as a stop point with a 9 minute changeover.

Ah yes, that is useful for getting it to force connections

 

[gray1404]

Thankfully, when I got home, I went online to EM site and booked the above 2 journeys while there were still seats left at the £7.25 fare. I'll be collecting them from the fast ticket machine when I travel. Although I was forced to pay on my card and unable to use my RTV.

Hi RJ - thanks so much for loading that fare up for me! That was really kind of you! The screen shots say to me its a similar interface (so most likely the same software) as ME were using. I think Haywain is right that that staff would find it too complicated. From my experience the first guy I spoke to at Southport booking office certainly had an attitude issue and the second person, he based on his remarks (such as telling me it is not possible to filter by TOC or by fares for slower journeys - you have proved the opposite by your screenshots) a lack of willingness to apply his training..

It is a shame that they are not able to bring up these slower and cheaper fares as easily as some of the online booking engines allow (such as the one I've booked it on). I shall be waiting for the reply from my complaint to ME with great interest. I did try to help them by providing them with the details of all the train times and connections plus the exact fare and route details as per what is on BR fares

Btw, the second guy serving me, did have the £7.25 on his fare list, but he was saying it was not available as he was saying there was a red cross through it. I was able to see his screen as it was at an angle and I said it would not offer it because for that itinerary he had selected it involved travel on VT and XC - so no wonder! But sadly that was too much information for him to handle.

I am thinking next time I might try the staff at Liverpool Lime Street (run by Northern). I wonder if they might have more knowledge given the fare origin is at their own station and will be used to selling LM only fares to Euston and stations on the West Coast mainline - so hopefully a LM and Southern might not be too hard for them. Sad though as I would rather go to my local station.

 

[gray1404]

Hi guys,

I received this dreadful reply today from Merseyrail Customer Relations. Needless to say I am very frustrated by the misinformation they have given and have clearly done nothing to make sure it does not happen again.

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your e-mail.

I was sorry to learn about the difficulties you experienced when purchasing tickets at Southport recently. We aim to make travel as easy as possible, and are working very closely with all other train operators to achieve this aim.

We also expect all our staff to be polite and helpful at all times, and I am sorry that further assistance was not provided at Southport. Your comments regarding this matter have been forwarded to the Station Manager so that he is aware of the situation.

However, we have not been able to find out exactly what happened and which tickets were available when you arrived at the station. We can only book ticket available on the system allowing tickets to be purchased from stations. We do not have access to the telesales tickets, and it may be that some advance purchased tickets had been held back for on line sales only. All available fares are shown on our fares systems irrespective of the operator concerned.

I can only apologise for the inconvenience caused to you, and thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely,

Nick Porter

Nicholas Porter
Customer Relations Assistant
Merseyrail

Email [email protected]
Web www.merseyrail.org

I posted a copy of my complaint earlier on in this post. This is clearly a staff training issue in that they do not know how to load the London Midland and Southern Only fares. Nothing about "online only fares."

Can you guys please help me draft a reply to this because I am really frustrated. I feel like they've not even had the decency to read and understand what it was I was complaining about. Where should I go from here? I will actually need to be booking another set of these tickets again soon (this time for myself traveling) and I would rather like to be able to use up a RTV and be able to book at a station.

Gray

 

[First class]

Hi guys,

I received this dreadful reply today from Merseyrail Customer Relations. Needless to say I am very frustrated by the misinformation they have given and have clearly done nothing to make sure it does not happen again.

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your e-mail.

I was sorry to learn about the difficulties you experienced when purchasing tickets at Southport recently. We aim to make travel as easy as possible, and are working very closely with all other train operators to achieve this aim.

We also expect all our staff to be polite and helpful at all times, and I am sorry that further assistance was not provided at Southport. Your comments regarding this matter have been forwarded to the Station Manager so that he is aware of the situation.

However, we have not been able to find out exactly what happened and which tickets were available when you arrived at the station. We can only book ticket available on the system allowing tickets to be purchased from stations. We do not have access to the telesales tickets, and it may be that some advance purchased tickets had been held back for on line sales only. All available fares are shown on our fares systems irrespective of the operator concerned.

I can only apologise for the inconvenience caused to you, and thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely,

Nick Porter

Nicholas Porter
Customer Relations Assistant
Merseyrail

Email [email protected]
Web www.merseyrail.org

I posted a copy of my complaint earlier on in this post. This is clearly a staff training issue in that they do not know how to load the London Midland and Southern Only fares. Nothing about "online only fares."

Can you guys please help me draft a reply to this because I am really frustrated. I feel like they've not even had the decency to read and understand what it was I was complaining about. Where should I go from here? I will actually need to be booking another set of these tickets again soon (this time for myself traveling) and I would rather like to be able to use up a RTV and be able to book at a station.

Gray

Wasting your time with Merseyrail customer relations and the majority of their booking offices. The staff are not trained in any great detail about National ticketing arrangements, and focus primarily on their own products.

Just take your business elsewhere, or next time you pass through Liverpool/Wigan etc, get them then.

You could also see if Southport has any rail appointed travel agents (they accept RTVs).

Alternatively, show them this:

Fujitsu JourneyPlanner:
ORIGIN: 2246 LIVERPOOL L ST (NOT 0435 LIVERPOOL STNS)
DESTINATION: 5268 BRIGHTON
DATES: Relevant date & time
OPTIONS: (Specify VIA CLAPHAM JUNCTION, also specify
SELECT "Exclude TOCs (using tick boxes): VIRGIN TRAINS WEST COAST, LONDON UNDERGROUND"
SELECT "Preferred TOCs: "LONDON MIDLAND and SOUTHERN". (again staff just need to tick the boxes)
TICKET TYPE: SCV - ADVANCE - SOUTHERN &LONMID (Restriction SY)



And

 

[RJ]

The screenshots I provided prove it is certainly possible, it only took a minute or two to work out. That is a poor response from Merseyrail.

 

[Starmill]

Christ, Tribute isn't that fancy looking!

However, on Tribute I could simply click on that fare you asked for, click the Quota button and it would plan journeys only valid on that fare, therefore it should come up with the correct itinerary. Not back in till Wednesday though...

Lack that little 'journey' pictogram? Or the hilariously kiddy number icon in changes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The screenshots I provided prove it is certainly possible, it only took a minute or two to work out. That is a poor response from Merseyrail.

I've been to Southport a few times. Within a minute they have decided your query isn't anything to do with Merseyrail so they ain't going to help you, and can you hurry up and leave please so I can sell the person behind you their packet of crisps? They won't even issue tickets to Manchester CTLZ on the basis that "We don't sell tram tickets here." What.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been to Southport a few times. Within a minute they have decided your query isn't anything to do with Merseyrail so they ain't going to help you, and can you hurry up and leave please so I can sell the person behind you their packet of crisps? They won't even issue tickets to Manchester CTLZ on the basis that "We don't sell tram tickets here." What.

I've long had the impression they would prefer to secede from the national network and just sell their own stuff. Which would be all very well were it not the case that there are multiple routes to many destinations. But if they were going to do that, there is little justification for keeping ticket offices open at all - it's just Anytime Singles/Returns, day tickets and Saveaways, easily done from a TVM. You might as well then sell a lease on the shops to a commercial operator.

As for Manchester CTLZ they indeed can't sell that as it's only available for tickets entirely within the TfGM area. They can I think sell one to a specific city centre Metrolink station, though.

 

[gray1404]

I think that sums it up totally, if if they are only going to sell tickets for travel within Merseyrail, might as well close the ticket offices and invest in a set of TVMs.

Can you guys please help me draft the response to their "fob off" complaint from Merseyrail. I am so frustrated with that reply they sent me. I am not sure if I should: -
1. Reply back Merseyrail asking for their Customer Relations Manager to review the case and the poor response (I am assuming they'd have to have a CRM)
2. Complain to Merseytravel (I see an address in the back of the timetable for doing this if you are unhappy with the response you have received from a operator.)
3. Have Transport Focus (formally Passenger Focus) take up the case at this point at this point or wait until I've done the above.

I think if this was summed up in one: Merseyrail is (if they like it or not) part of the National Rail Network. I am totally insulted that their reply makes reference to "online online" fares when this is clearly not the issue at hand!

 

[Starmill]

As for Manchester CTLZ they indeed can't sell that as it's only available for tickets entirely within the TfGM area. They can I think sell one to a specific city centre Metrolink station, though.

Obviously the origin I requested was within Greater Manchester. They insisted only on selling a ticket to Manchester Stations, which of course doesn't return any results if your origin is within GM....

 

[trivran]

Believe I had a similar issue in trying to get a cheap LM advance to Worcester from Euston the other day. Clerk was mightily annoyed and insistent so I stumped up the extra £4 (extortion!) for the VT fare instead.

 

[gray1404]

I am assuming you were booking that ticket at the travel centre at Euston. In which case do email VT customer relations complaining. Scan and send in copies of your tickets. You can bet money VT will send you a voucher in the post. That at least will make up for the additional money you had to spend on the ticket because the person in the booking office didn't know what to do to bring up a cheaper LM fare.

Regarding my own situation with these Southern and London Midland only avance fares on the Liverpool to Brighton route: I will be needing to make that journey a coupe of times next month (there and back) and I do want to use up some RTVs I have. These are the main stations I can access in order of ease, given I live in Formby.

Liverpool Lime Street (Northern)
Preston (Virgin West Coast)
Chester (Arriva Trains Wales)

Of course it should not be the case that I am having to go so far but all the other stations I can get to are managed by Merseyrail. So, one the above 3, which one do you think I will have the most luck at?