Unable to purchase a ticket Haymarket - Linlithgow on Sunday morning

Status
Not open for further replies.

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
Arrived at Haymarket Station this morning and attempted to buy a ticket to Linlithgow from the Vending Machine (Office closed). The machine hummed and haad and would not accept my debit card (used yesterday ok).

The barriers were unmanned and open (8am) so I decided to get a ticket from the Guard on the train when he came around. The train was due at 0804 so not much leeway and one hour till the next one.

The journey from Haymarket to Linlithgow is about 18 minutes and no guard appeared during that time. I got off the train and there was not a soul at Linlithgow Station.

Should I feel guilty ?

This always seems to happen on a Sunday Morning - no ticket checks and no one on the barriers, whereas Saturday early doors is the opposite.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
52,679
Location
Yorkshire
You could try asking Scotrail if it is acceptable to buy a "reverse" ticket from the TVM at Linlithgow station. A member of staff on this forum has stated that he makes people buy reverse tickets from TVMs. Was your journey a return or single? The problem with a return is that you would be using the 'rtn' portion before the 'out' portion if you did that. I'd be interested to hear the response as it is unclear to me if a "reverse" ticket is even valid.
 

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
You could try asking Scotrail if it is acceptable to buy a "reverse" ticket from the TVM at Linlithgow station. A member of staff on this forum has stated that he makes people buy reverse tickets from TVMs. Was your journey a return or single? The problem with a return is that you would be using the 'rtn' portion before the 'out' portion if you did that. I'd be interested to hear the response as it is unclear to me if a "reverse" ticket is even valid.

It was a single journey - in order to get home from work I have to get a Bus into Edinburgh, a train from there to Linlithgow and then a bus to Falkirk - sounds crazy but the early trains go into "High" whereas I want " FKG" so easier and quicker to tx to Bus.

There were no staff at the station - I would have paid had there been. Not sure about the reverse aspect - a bit technical for me.:oops:
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
How can you sleep at night :)

I suspect scotrail have made a commercial choice, they don't staff Haymarket is saving them money, which is not offset by a bit of ticketless travel. As the trains are normally 6 car while it is running hourly if you get in the wrong set you can't get to the gaurd anyway.
 

sonic2009

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2010
Messages
4,179
Location
Moulton nr Winsford
The service in question that Butts used this morning waited at Linlithgow from 0818-0823, it left 5 minutes late, if you really wanted to get a ticket you could of approached him?.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
 

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
And also the ticket office opens at 0815, was there nobody there?.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

The ticket office was shuttered up and no one in sight so it must have opened late today. As for the train waiting in the station I did not notice as I only have a few minutes to get my bus connection and have to get a shift on.

As FU said it was 6 carriages (I was in the front 3) so must have been the section without the guard.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
The service in question that Butts used this morning waited at Linlithgow from 0818-0823, it left 5 minutes late, if you really wanted to get a ticket you could of approached him?.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

No, the gaurds responsibility at a station is safety critical duties, not selling tickets. I am sure the gaurd would be reprimanded if the did sell a ticket during the wait. The train is not scheduled to wait anyway at Linlithgow, so I suspect the gaurd would have refused.

Someone could of course follow Yorkie's suggestion and buy a Linlithgow to Haymarket single. But at the risk of getting flamed if there is no way of paying why should you put yourself out?
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
My personal opinion is that TOC's bear some responsibility for collecting revenue. In cases where there is no ticket office (which might become far more common than now if government/McNulty get their way), the TVM is not working and the guard does not come through the train for whatever reason, then I don't see why the passenger should have to jump through hoops on arrival at their destination station.

As was said earlier, Scotrail have made a commercial decision that on Sunday mornings it is not worth employing staff as the costs will outweigh the revenue collected.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
The other thing if you think of someone not knowing the station at Linlithgow, you have no reason to go past the ticket office on arrival from Edinburgh. You just leave the platform into the car park, the ticket office is the other side of the station. Likewise scotrail TVMs don't accept cash. If you are travelling to Polmont the next station along you encounter the same issue. Exit the platform directly, the TVM is on the other platform. If you don't know the station how would you find it?

If loss of revenue was a problem for scotrail the solution is simple - have a ticket seller in the front 3 and a gaurd in the rear 3. I bet they wish the turbos had corridor connections now. Dodge the gaurd is a common game at Falkirk High.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
52,679
Location
Yorkshire
A guard is not going to be reprimanded for selling tickets if there's time! The train was delayed at Linlithgow though, without knowing what the cause of delay at Linlithgow, it's impossible to speculate.

It sounds like the customer could not purchase the correct ticket for their journey due to no opportunity. That's really the end of the matter, apart from the fact that it has been suggested that a ticket from Linlithgow to Haymarket could be purchased from the machines (and then disposed of), which is not the correct ticket, but the OP could try asking Scotrail if this would be deemed a valid ticket and if this would be deemed acceptable to Scotrail. I am not suggesting it would (or wouldn't), merely that a member of this forum has both suggested it and stated that he makes passengers do this at his station, in the circumstances described by the OP (except for the fact that there is a member of gateline staff at the station). I'd be interested to hear the response, but until the question is asked and an answer given, I am not suggesting one way or the other if it is a 'solution'.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
A guard is not going to be reprimanded for selling tickets if there's time! The train was delayed at Linlithgow though, without knowing what the cause of delay at Linlithgow, it's impossible to speculate.

True, but as the train is not scheduled to wait I wouldn't risk it as the reason for the delay may clear during the wait. Normally you can't walk the length of a 6 car train in the time it takes for the stop. I wouldn't bother as I wouldn't expect the gaurd to still be there by the time i got to him.

Travelling on Scotrail it is still travel in the rear 3 if you want a ticket. All the fare dodgers know this. (I should add I am not remotely suggesting Butts falls into that catergory) just highlighting that he has demonstrated how hard it is for the honest to buy a ticket, it also shows how easy it is for the dishonest. Something i am often highlighting to Scotrail and get the "automatic barriers solve all problems reply"

Just for the last point Yorkie, the debit card was rejected at Haymarket, if it was rejected because of an issue with comms to the bank, it would be totally impossible to buy at Linlithgow as TVMs in scotrail are card only.
 

neilmc

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2011
Messages
869
You could try asking Scotrail if it is acceptable to buy a "reverse" ticket from the TVM at Linlithgow station. A member of staff on this forum has stated that he makes people buy reverse tickets from TVMs. Was your journey a return or single? The problem with a return is that you would be using the 'rtn' portion before the 'out' portion if you did that. I'd be interested to hear the response as it is unclear to me if a "reverse" ticket is even valid.

If you require a ticket from A to B and haven't been able to obtain one through no fault of your own, how can you be "made" to buy a ticket from B to A instead which is not valid for the journey you have just undertaken?
 

nedchester

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2008
Messages
1,564
My view is that if the train company cannot be bothered to offer a facility to buy the correct ticket at either end of the journey nor on the train then you shouldn't feel in any way guilty. You tried to buy a ticket they haven't been able to sell you one so you've had a free journey. Don't feel guilty, I wouldn't!!!;)
 

Waldgrun

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2011
Messages
297
Surely if the OP knows where the middle of the train will be when the service stops at the platform, the ideal thing would be to wait at that point and wait to see which part of the train the Guard is in, and then joint that part!
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
Surely if the OP knows where the middle of the train will be when the service stops at the platform, the ideal thing would be to wait at that point and wait to see which part of the train the Guard is in, and then joint that part!

Just like the fare dodgers do, but go for the opposite half. ;) however seriously the gaurds do swap ends after they have shut the door to get said fare dodgers, so the set the gaurd was in upon arrival may change upon departure anyway so that doesn't always help.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Surely if the OP knows where the middle of the train will be when the service stops at the platform, the ideal thing would be to wait at that point and wait to see which part of the train the Guard is in, and then joint the other part so he can have a free ride with no fear of being caught!

Post edited fo accuracy! :lol:

And before everyone jumps on my post, it is a joke, IE humour, funny haha! :roll:
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
2,877
If you require a ticket from A to B and haven't been able to obtain one through no fault of your own, how can you be "made" to buy a ticket from B to A instead which is not valid for the journey you have just undertaken?

Indeed. It becomes even more problematic if the fare AtoB is not equal to the fare BtoA as happens for example on some journeys in the South East.
 

40fan

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2010
Messages
56
Location
Stoke-on-Trent
I had a free ride from Longton to Stoke-on-Trent this morning. Myself and around half a dozen other passengers all boarded at the rear door. The gurard closed the doors and went into the cab. East Midland Trains have lost a minimum of £1.90 if I assume that everyone else had already got tickets, and I couldn't care less. There was no opportunity to buy a ticket.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,518
Location
Central Belt
I had a free ride from Longton to Stoke-on-Trent this morning. Myself and around half a dozen other passengers all boarded at the rear door. The gurard closed the doors and went into the cab. East Midland Trains have lost a minimum of £1.90 if I assume that everyone else had already got tickets, and I couldn't care less. There was no opportunity to buy a ticket.

Double edge sword, when Central trains ran the service they would have then said there was no demand for the service as no tickets were sold. <D

Don't collect revenue
claim demand doesn't exist
withdraw the service.

QED <D
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,105
My view is that if the train company cannot be bothered to offer a facility to buy the correct ticket at either end of the journey nor on the train then you shouldn't feel in any way guilty. You tried to buy a ticket they haven't been able to sell you one so you've had a free journey. Don't feel guilty, I wouldn't!!!;)

That's roughly how I see it from my side of the fence too and why I almost always make an effort to go through with a ticket machine unless there's a damn good reason not to. The railway doesn't help itself sometimes! I presume McNumpty wishes passengers such as the OP to deposit their fare in an honesty box at his destination......

 

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
That's roughly how I see it from my side of the fence too and why I almost always make an effort to go through with a ticket machine unless there's a damn good reason not to. The railway doesn't help itself sometimes! I presume McNumpty wishes passengers such as the OP to deposit their fare in an honesty box at his destination......


A bit hard to do that with a Card :lol:

Probably have a similar success rate to the ones employed by Customs at Airports in the past !!!
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,911
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
A guard is not going to be reprimanded for selling tickets if there's time! The train was delayed at Linlithgow though, without knowing what the cause of delay at Linlithgow, it's impossible to speculate.

There was no delay if the train at Linlithgow if it left at 08:23. Check out "open train times". However the passenger TT does shew 08:18.

With regard to the Guard issuing tickets on the train and/or platform at Linlithgow during the 5 mins dwell time like yorkie I see no problems there as long as safety and timekeeping are not compromised.

If the OP is concerned re not having a ticket, and as the OP seems a regular traveller and seems to know the system, then I suggest that he looks at Haymarket as to which portion the guard is in and then joins that portion if he wants to purchase on the train. Please note that if there are no functioning ticket issuing facilities at the originating station then the passenger is at liberty to sit anywhere on the train and no aspersions can be drawn as to any lack of ticket, a full range of fares should then be offered on board.
 

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
There was no delay if the train at Linlithgow if it left at 08:23. Check out "open train times". However the passenger TT does shew 08:18.

With regard to the Guard issuing tickets on the train and/or platform at Linlithgow during the 5 mins dwell time like yorkie I see no problems there as long as safety and timekeeping are not compromised.

If the OP is concerned re not having a ticket, and as the OP seems a regular traveller and seems to know the system, then I suggest that he looks at Haymarket as to which portion the guard is in and then joins that portion if he wants to purchase on the train. Please note that if there are no functioning ticket issuing facilities at the originating station then the passenger is at liberty to sit anywhere on the train and no aspersions can be drawn as to any lack of ticket, a full range of fares should then be offered on board.

Actually for future reference I wondered whether you could use a railcard onboard to purchase a ticket ? ie single to Linlithgow.
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,911
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
Actually for future reference I wondered whether you could use a railcard onboard to purchase a ticket ? ie single to Linlithgow.

No problems - let the guard know that the TVM is faulty so he can pass this up the line so that we can get some one out to fix it. Just out of interest what bus do you catch at Linlithgow - I heard First Bus has dramatically cut back the services on a Sunday. I used to get the 6A quite a lot but just drive now (& don't drink :cry:)
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
52,679
Location
Yorkshire
Actually for future reference I wondered whether you could use a railcard onboard to purchase a ticket ? ie single to Linlithgow.
Providing you are purchasing at the first opportunity, a Railcard discount and an Off Peak ticket (if applicable/approproiate) can be sold.

If there are no working ticket issuing facilities for your chosen method of payment at the origin station, then the next opportunity would normally be on board the train, but in some cases it may be at your destination (or on a subsequent train, or if there is sufficient time, at an interchange station if applicable).

If you do not buy at the first opportunity, then the full Anytime (Day) Single fare with no discounts is applicable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you require a ticket from A to B and haven't been able to obtain one through no fault of your own, how can you be "made" to buy a ticket from B to A instead which is not valid for the journey you have just undertaken?
I'm not so sure about this myself, but a member of staff has told us that he enforces this. This is why I suggest Butts contacts Scotrail and asks them.
 

Butts

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
9,648
Location
Stirlingshire
No problems - let the guard know that the TVM is faulty so he can pass this up the line so that we can get some one out to fix it. Just out of interest what bus do you catch at Linlithgow - I heard First Bus has dramatically cut back the services on a Sunday. I used to get the 6A quite a lot but just drive now (& don't drink :cry:)

Thanks for that....

First Bus Service 38 its the premier route Stirling to Edinburgh and a very good service.

Unfortunately on Sunday Mornings a "part route" operates early on - I am travelling to Falkirk. First Service on a Sunday Morning Linlithgow to Falkirk is 0657 so thats not bad (I get the 0830)
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,911
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
With regard to purchasing a return ticket at your destination from a TVM when you have been unable to purchase one at your origin. Note the following points:-

1) An outward ticket is only valid when you hold a completely unused return portion. In the above case the return would be "used" before the outward therefore invalidating the outward before you have a chance to use it.

2) The time of issue may cause revenue staff to become suspicious as the vast majority of tickets bought from a TVM are bought for immediate travel.

I will give you an example: When checking tickets on an evening peak hours train after a suburban unstaffed station I came across a passenger with the outward portion of a return ticket issued at 08:06 from the TVM at that station. (i.e. issued over 10 hrs before). Due to the fact that the passenger would have been able to make numerous return journeys in that time I asked for his return ticket (see point one above). The passenger did not have this and I was immediately suspicious and therefore completed a TI form - however it transpired that the barrier staff at that station were encouraging the passengers without tickets to purchase from the TVM and then were retaining the return portion, leaving the passenger with the the outward ticket for return travel (contrary to the rules - but possibly understandable to reduce queues in the morning peak). This system does cause confusion to ontrain revenue staff (& I daresay to passengers too).

I personally would not advise any one to purchase in the reverse order from a TVM (but would advise them to use the BO - please listen McNulty!). However if I was to encounter a passenger who had done so I would use understanding and discretion - after all the passenger has made an attempt to purchase a ticket.



Thanks for that....

First Bus Service 38, first service on a Sunday morning Linlithgow to Falkirk is 0657 so thats not bad (I get the 0830)

I believe my first bus is not until after 10 with nothing after 6 or 7pm! Shocking. I do not begrudge anyone their bus service however when Linlithgow has 4 trains per hour to Edinburgh does it need 4 buses per hour also? Esp. when Bo'ness (of a similar population) is lucky to have 5 or 6 direct services a day (I'm sure Linlithgow has a greater car ownership figure too - although I could be wrong).

In my view as the rail lines in the central belt in the main run east - west and run frequently esp between Edinburgh & Glasgow it would make more sense to run the buses north - south to connect the stations on the separate lines & passing though the settlements without rail stations. Introduce an integrated ticketing system whilst we are at it.

The system just now re buses seems to be subsidised services that run round the houses or services that run in wasteful competition with the trains. (Please note I realise that certain towns/villages along railway lines do not have stations and therefore need to retain their bus routes)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top