Unable to reply to Revenue Protection letter

[Ferrovia]

I made the daft, last-second decision to try to pay a reduced fare on a journey from Cardiff to Bristol at the beginning of August. The opportunity arose because the guard/conductor on the first part of the journey from my local station was stuck at the other end of the train chatting to passengers and not checking tickets or taking fares (I should note that there are no warning signs at my local station stating that it is a criminal offence to board without a ticket, and I have never previously had a problem purchasing one on board, although there is a solitary ticket machine on the platform...which has failed me 3 times before, so I have become wary about using it).
So I arrived at Cardiff Central and saw the GWR service drawing up to the platform and got straight on it (with 3 heavy pieces of luggage), fully intending to pay when the conductor came around. However, he disappeared for the rest of the journey (I suspect he might have been in the driver's cab), and not wanting to leave my luggage unattended, I decided to try and pay at the 'unpaid fares' kiosk when I arrived at Temple Meads, which I've done on a previous occasion. However, as I approached, I had the idiotic notion to try and pay a lesser fare by claiming that I'd come from a much nearer station. Unfortunately, a handsome young Revenue Protection Officer happened to be there and asked me a couple of awkward questions before I admitted the truth, apologised for my stupidity and offered to pay the full fare. However, he produced his little black book, took my details under caution and advised me that I would receive a letter from the Prosecutions Unit within a couple of weeks. I stressed to him twice that I would be unable to do anything about it for approximately 6 weeks - mid-September - as I would be abroad for that amount of time (hence the luggage). He said he would let "them" know, but he had stopped writing in his little black book by then, so I am not sure or confident that this significant piece of information will have been passed on.
I live alone and have no one to check my post while I'm away, so I'm worried that the letter might have arrived, either giving me the chance to pay a fine or threatening me with court action. Of course, I can prove that I wasn't there when I return, through my flight details etc....but I'm concerned it might be too late by then :cry:
I have searched for an email address to contact them, but without success.
Anyone had a similar dilemma or can offer any advice? Thanks.

 

[gray1404]

The problem here is that you boarded at a station with a ticket machine at your starting station so you should have not the ticket from there. Giving the incorrect station is a second failure on your part. So even if you had have given the correct station they would still have had you bang to rights on the first mistake.

 

[najaB]

I live alone and have no one to check my post while I'm away, so I'm worried that the letter might have arrived, either giving me the chance to pay a fine or threatening me with court action. Of course, I can prove that I wasn't there when I return, through my flight details etc....but I'm concerned it might be too late by then :cry:
I have searched for an email address to contact them, but without success.
Anyone had a similar dilemma or can offer any advice? Thanks.

I don't have any contact information for their prosecutions department, but I would suggest using the contact form on their website to see if they can get you in touch with the right people.

 

[319321]

Their Revenue Protection Policy says:

The Prosecutions Unit is available between 0900hrs and 1630hrs Monday to Friday. To discuss your case or to make a settlement please telephone 01189 579 073 or 01189 579 324.

 

[gray1404]

According to GWR website they have relocated their Customer Service Centre and are unable to receive phone calls at the moment and are taking longer to reply to letters and emails. I have just sent a Tweet to GWR (which is manned 24 hours) asking if they can provide the contact details for their Prosecutions Department though. If they reply with the details I shall post them back here.

Also, I do seem to recall someone posting a copy of a letter they had received from GWR Prosecutions which had the contact details on the top. (From memory they were based in offices at Reading Station). I also recall another case in which someone was able to phone them and reach a settlement and pay there and then over the phone.

There is a phone number within the GWR Revenue Protection & Prosecutions Policy. It says: The Prosecutions Unit is available between 0900hrs and 1630hrs Monday to Friday. To discuss your case or to make a settlement please telephone 01189 579 073 or 01189 579 324. I hope this helps and perhaps a simple phone call to them may be able to resolve the matter. Might I suggest to download a free app that might allow you to keep a recording of the phone call and also keep or download a copy of your phone bill (Skype record etc) to show you calling that number. Please also obtain the full name of the person you speak to. I would also suggest paying any settlement offered by card over the phone as this will show up on your bank statement.

Of course there is no assurances they will offer a settlement but worth checking.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The key points seem to me to be these:-

• You deliberately tried to avoid the proper payment
  
• You were found to have attempted that avoidance
  
• You will be investigated for possible prosecution or other recovery action
  
• You have left the property whose address you gave
  
• You wish the opportunity to present mitigation before any legal action is determined

If I'm correct, and there is no prior record of you having attempted another fraud or act of criminal dishonesty, then I agree that the best course of action is to try to intercept any correspondence so that you have every opportunity to present your mitigation (whatever that may be) before a decision is reached.

One way to do that is to contact the Revenue Protection and Prosecutions unit of First Great Western Railways to advise them how to contact you at your current location (if you're travelling, then email might be a convenient option).
Another way is to set up a Royal Mail 'personal redirection' arrangement, where all your mail is sent to someone who will deal with it responsibly on your behalf. (This could be anyone from a friendly neighbour, through a society you work with, to your chosen law firm).

 

[najaB]

Another way is to set up a Royal Mail 'personal redirection' arrangement...

While this is good advice, I read the OP's post as saying they are already out of the country - so I don't know if that is still an option.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to raise one further point for the OP, the fare due was from the starting station to Bristol Temple Meads, not from Cardiff Central to Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[cuccir]

Just to clarify - this was at the beginning of August and you're due back mid-September? When in August and when in September precisely?

The reason that I ask is that it's rare for correspondence relating to these events to arrive any sooner than three weeks after it - I've done a quick search on this forum for the word 'letter' and the first few threads show:
* [http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131966&highlight=letter 30th May, letter 18th June]
* [http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131932&highlight=letter "Last Month", letter 17th June]
* [http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130594&highlight=letter 1st April, letter in mid-May some time]
* [http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130325&highlight=letter "Four or Five weeks"]
* [http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=133580&highlight=letter "A few weeks"]

This would suggest that it's unlikely that you've received anything yet, or at least, that this week is the earliest to expect a letter.

In the first instance, it would be good to contact GWR, as noted by others. However, in practice, it may well be that when you get back gives you a chance to reply, if you respond quickly - it does depend a little on the dates!

 

[Ferrovia]

Hi all, thanks so much for the replies and advice so far. Just to answer 'cuccir', the incident took place at around 10.25pm on 1st August (the day before I flew out) and I'm due to return home on 13th Sept. I'm worried that if a letter has already been sent that another escalating the situation could arrive before I get back. Would they accept the fact that I was away for so long as a valid reason for not replying within the time limit? I could, of course, prove my absence through my flight details and hotel bookings. I'd be just a little ****ed off if the RP officer didn't pass on my circumstances after I stressed to him twice that I'd be away for that amount of time and unable to reply.
I've tried ringing the 01189 number a couple of times already today, but without success (God knows what that will cost from an Italian landline!)

 

[gray1404]

Those are the correct numbers as GWR replied my Tweet this morning confirming such. I would keep trying to phone them. Remember that you need the international format required from the country you are in and drop the starting 0 from the UK bit of the number. Having had a look online it would appear that to call them from Italy you need to enter:

00 44 1189 579 073

or

00 44 1189 579 324

Give that a go and see if you get through. You should not be charged unless a network action occurs, such as a connection to a voice mail or someone answers. Remember the time zone difference too and they are open 09:00 to 16:30 local time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Those are the correct numbers as GWR replied my Tweet this morning confirming such. I would keep trying to phone them. Remember that you need the international format required from the country you are in and drop the starting 0 from the UK bit of the number. Having had a look online it would appear that to call them from Italy you need to enter:

00 44 1189 579 073

or

00 44 1189 579 324

Give that a go and see if you get through. You should not be charged unless a network action occurs, such as a connection to a voice mail or someone answers. Remember the time zone difference too and they are open 09:00 to 16:30 local time.

Don't forget it will be free if you use Skype.

 

[najaB]

Don't forget it will be free if you use Skype.

Those are geographic numbers, so will only be free if the OP has a Skype subscription.

 

[crehld]

While this is good advice, I read the OP's post as saying they are already out of the country - so I don't know if that is still an option.

Royal Mail will happily set up a redirection to an overseas address and you can set it up from abroad too - it costs slightly more though. But contacting GWR and providing temporary contact details would be my suggested option given the OP is only out of the country for a limited period, and that it might go some way to convincing the revenue protection team of the OP's willingness to co-operate.

 

[BestWestern]

The problem here is that you boarded at a station with a ticket machine at your starting station so you should have not the ticket from there. Giving the incorrect station is a second failure on your part. So even if you had have given the correct station they would still have had you bang to rights on the first mistake.

That is true, but crucially the first 'mistake' would probably have earned a £20 Penalty Fare. When the incorrect origin station was given, the situation changed rather dramatically and on offence, punishable by prosecution, was commited.

Regarding the OP being 'p****ed off' if the RPI hadn't passed on the info, do consider the above - an offence was commited. I'm not sure to what extent a Prosecutions Department is obliged to alter their procedures for convenience. Hopefully they will be duly obliging.

 

[island]

That is true, but crucially the first 'mistake' would probably have earned a £20 Penalty Fare. When the incorrect origin station was given, the situation changed rather dramatically and on offence, punishable by prosecution, was commited.

Reading the OP's post carefully it appears that the first part of the journey was to Cardiff Central on a local ATW service. As the journey started at a station that is not a Penalty Fares station, a Penalty Fare would not be applicable.

 

[BestWestern]

Reading the OP's post carefully it appears that the first part of the journey was to Cardiff Central on a local ATW service. As the journey started at a station that is not a Penalty Fares station, a Penalty Fare would not be applicable.

Do ATW not operate a PF system though?

 

[cuccir]

Agree with all the above comments. It's a little tight with timings - if you were away a week less I'd say not to worry about it as even if the letter had come at the earliest, there's usually at least a two week window in which to reply. The good news is that tt may well still be that you arrive back in time, but to not chance it you'll need to contact GWR.

 

[headshot119]

Do ATW not operate a PF system though?

No they do not.

 

[Haywain]

Do ATW not operate a PF system though?

No they do not.

And even if they did, this would not be relevant to the OP who was already at Bristol when they were found to be attempting to 'short fare'.

 

[Ferrovia]

Hi, everyone, thanks for all the great advice and information.
Well, I finally got through to a kindly sounding lady at the Prosecutions Unit and she informed me that a letter had indeed been sent to me in my absence, but it had been noted in the RPI's report that I would be away until the middle of September and so an extension had been granted for me to reply by the 30th. The phone line between Italy and Reading wasn't very clear, but I understood her to say that I'd been offered a settlement of £95.70 (though I suppose she could have said 195 or even 595!) She also said that she would make a note of the fact that I'd called from Italy to check on my situation.
Anyway, the main thing is that I'll have time to respond when I get home and, hopefully, avoid any court action and criminal record, for which I would be very relieved and grateful.

On the matter of ATW's apparent non-PF system in Cardiff, does this mean it's perfectly reasonable to pay once you're on the train (even if there's a ticket machine on the platform)? I must say that I've never had a problem paying on board before and, in my experience, that's what the vast number of passengers seem to do. After all, there's not much alternative at busy times if you can't get near the ticket machine for other people. It just seems unnecessarily confusing if different TOCs have different policies regarding this...but I suppose if they make it clear at the platform, then the passenger can't claim ignorance. Must say it's simpler and a lot cheaper here in Italy!

 

[6Gman]

On the matter of ATW's apparent non-PF system in Cardiff, does this mean it's perfectly reasonable to pay once you're on the train (even if there's a ticket machine on the platform)? I must say that I've never had a problem paying on board before and, in my experience, that's what the vast number of passengers seem to do. After all, there's not much alternative at busy times if you can't get near the ticket machine for other people. It just seems unnecessarily confusing if different TOCs have different policies regarding this...but I suppose if they make it clear at the platform, then the passenger can't claim ignorance. Must say it's simpler and a lot cheaper here in Italy!

No. If you pass an opportunity to pay (ticket office, TVM) you are committing an offence with the possibility of criminal action.

If the TVMs are busy you just need to get there earlier!

ATW used to have an ambiguous poster on their stations which could be read as allowing purchase on board even if there were station facilities; this has now been replaced by one which makes the position clearer.

Agree that the different policies of different TOCs are confusing but that's how it is.

 

[island]

As soon as you choose to board a train without having with you a valid ticket, you have committed a criminal offence unless one or more of the exemptions apply, such as being given permission by an authorised person (of which you would be well advised to obtain and keep evidence) or there being no ticket facilities in operation at the station in question. There is no waiting time limit or maximum queue length that will allow you to unilaterally join the train without a valid ticket. That's the law as stands.

 

[Flamingo]

I am under the impression that in a few months, Penalty Fares will be applied to passengers travelling without tickets on GWR services from stations in South Wales where GWR trains call, and facilities to buy are available. Announcements saying that Penalty Fares apply to GWR trains are being made in South Wales at the moment.

Barrier staff at Bristol are trained to issue PF's.

However, in this case, a PF is not applicable, as the OP tried to short-fare, which is not something PF's are designed to rectify.

 

[clagmonster]

I'd also say a PF wouldn't be applicable as the journey started at a shack in the Valleys, ie one not within the penalty fare area.

 

[reb0118]

Things may well be cheaper in Italy but are there fines if you are found without a valid ticket and at what level are the fines set, also will you find yourself having a wee chat with the Carabiniere if you fail the attitude test?....the grass is not always greener abroad.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[rs101]

As soon as you choose to board a train without having with you a valid ticket, you have committed a criminal offence unless one or more of the exemptions apply, such as being given permission by an authorised person (of which you would be well advised to obtain and keep evidence) or there being no ticket facilities in operation at the station in question. There is no waiting time limit or maximum queue length that will allow you to unilaterally join the train without a valid ticket. That's the law as stands.

However, there's plenty of vaguely worded official guidance on the net which suggests you can board if there are long queues at a ticket office.
For example:-
http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/ad...train-if-the-ticket-office-queue-is-too-long/
and
http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/more/penalty-fares/

Neither state you must get permission - one says "it's advisable" , the other doesn't mention it at all.

 

[Flamingo]

Which again is irrelevant to the OP, who after boarding (legitematly or not) without a ticket, attempted to short-fare on arrival at their destination.

 

[duffield]

As soon as you choose to board a train without having with you a valid ticket, you have committed a criminal offence unless one or more of the exemptions apply, such as being given permission by an authorised person (of which you would be well advised to obtain and keep evidence) or there being no ticket facilities in operation at the station in question. There is no waiting time limit or maximum queue length that will allow you to unilaterally join the train without a valid ticket. That's the law as stands.

Not sure how this fits in, but Grand Central (East Coast open access operator) have a blanket policy of allowing a full range of tickets to be bought on board (It's on the website but I also double checked this with them by email before travelling). I guess this is like an extension of the 'authorized person' exemption but the 'authorized person' is the operator as a whole company instead...

Just for pedantic completeness the reason I didn't want to buy a ticket at the office/machine which were available was that I didn't actually know if I would just catch the GC train, which I have to pay to use or if I would just miss it and end up getting an East Coast train (as it was then) on which I don't have to pay (covered by priv travel).