Unachievable Turnround Times

[Deepgreen]

I couldn't find a thread for this - if I have missed it, apologies, and I'll re-post there.

I often catch the 0819 from Betchworth to Redhill, which is notorious for its poor timekeeping. This appears to stem from the fact that it is afforded only two minutes to reverse at Reading (0700 arrival, 0702 departure) from the incoming ex-Gatwick working! Given the huge likelihood of this train losing at least a few minutes en route, having a two minute turn-round seems ridiculous, and almost always leads to the Redhill-bound run leaving several minutes late, losing even more time en route. This in turn leads to further days on the turn round at Redhill and so on, all for want of a more sensible first turn-round of the day at Reading.

 

[berneyarms]

It's actually 4 minutes per the working timetable.

The public timetable has extra recovery time in it.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's actually 4 minutes per the working timetable.

The public timetable has extra recovery time in it.

Even so, that is a tight turn-round even if everything is running to time, which it rarely is. The incoming ex-Gatwick train is very often more than 5L so the departure is immediately scuppered and more time is lost en route.

 

[Ianno87]

I couldn't find a thread for this - if I have missed it, apologies, and I'll re-post there.

I often catch the 0819 from Betchworth to Redhill, which is notorious for its poor timekeeping. This appears to stem from the fact that it is afforded only two minutes to reverse at Reading (0700 arrival, 0702 departure) from the incoming ex-Gatwick working! Given the huge likelihood of this train losing at least a few minutes en route, having a two minute turn-round seems ridiculous, and almost always leads to the Redhill-bound run leaving several minutes late, losing even more time en route. This in turn leads to further days on the turn round at Redhill and so on, all for want of a more sensible first turn-round of the day at Reading.

It's not 'ridiculous' when you only have a fleet of so many Turbos to run an adequate service to meet demand.

And, the departure from Gatwick, presumably being the first departure of the day (?) cannot go earlier without reducing overnight maintenance access.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's not 'ridiculous' when you only have a fleet of so many Turbos to run an adequate service to meet demand.

And, the departure from Gatwick, presumably being the first departure of the day (?) cannot go earlier without reducing overnight maintenance access.

Notwithstanding the fleet size (and it doesn't necessarily need more trains to address the issue), I still maintain that such a tight turn-round time is ridiculous if any pretence at timekeeping is to be maintained. Other factors aside, having a four minute planned reversal time on this route (which is notorious for its poor timekeeping) is simply asking for trouble, and the performance of the 0702 speaks for itself. I don't pretend to have the solution to the problem, but the cause is clear.

There are many trains through Gatwick far earlier than this one (which leaves there at 0531) so maintenance access would be unaffected by making the train run earlier.

 

[Crossover]

Looks like it has a similarly tight turn at Redhill too.

Just looking through departures today, that diagram didn't get back on time until it left Redhill at 1134

 

[tsr]

For the train which Deepgreen has specified, and discussion of which is clearly at least part of the purpose of this thread, Ianno87 is right about maintenance access, though not quite for the reasons specified.

The empties on train 5V46, which is the start of service for the stock diagrammed, cannot leave Redhill LHS / Tonbridge Sidings until two trains ahead of this service have cleared the station - firstly a movement of the first Up passenger service (2W92), which runs considerably earlier than Redhill's public passenger service used to begin (in recent years), followed by the ECS to Selhurst (5P05). This is because all three trains must be sequenced over the same throat to the South of Redhill. Having personally watched these movements from vantage points around Redhill a number of times, they are quite tight and there is little room for error anyway, but most importantly, overnight possessions through Redhill station are very often given up between 0445 and 0500.

5V46 then arrives at Gatwick and turns around to form 2V46, which leaves right behind 2W94 and reverses at Redhill, from where it runs semi-fast before forming a stopping commuter service from Guildford behind the 1E79 XC to Newcastle. If it left any earlier or ran fast, it would clash with the XC and also not provide an early-morning commuter service from the North Downs into Reading. As has then been suggested, the only option seems to be a tight turnaround to use the same unit on the next stopper to Redhill. Obviously there will be a multitude of factors, especially with leaf fall in autumn, but also events like today's signalling problems, which could affect the service on the NDL. However, the train still has leeway for connections at Guildford towards Portsmouth, Woking, and routes via Effingham Junction. I note Deepgreen's never ending quest to connect with the 0831 service from Redhill, but this is not an official connection which should not be able to be planned using tools available to passengers, and a number of other local connections towards Horsham, as well as Merstham and Coulsdon South, are still maintained at Redhill anyway.

 

[Deepgreen]

For the train which Deepgreen has specified, and discussion of which is clearly at least part of the purpose of this thread, Ianno87 is right about maintenance access, though not quite for the reasons specified.

The empties on train 5V46, which is the start of service for the stock diagrammed, cannot leave Redhill LHS / Tonbridge Sidings until two trains ahead of this service have cleared the station - firstly a movement of the first Up passenger service (2W92), which runs considerably earlier than Redhill's public passenger service used to begin (in recent years), followed by the ECS to Selhurst (5P05). This is because all three trains must be sequenced over the same throat to the South of Redhill. Having personally watched these movements from vantage points around Redhill a number of times, they are quite tight and there is little room for error anyway, but most importantly, overnight possessions through Redhill station are very often given up between 0445 and 0500.

5V46 then arrives at Gatwick and turns around to form 2V46, which leaves right behind 2W94 and reverses at Redhill, from where it runs semi-fast before forming a stopping commuter service from Guildford behind the 1E79 XC to Newcastle. If it left any earlier or ran fast, it would clash with the XC and also not provide an early-morning commuter service from the North Downs into Reading. As has then been suggested, the only option seems to be a tight turnaround to use the same unit on the next stopper to Redhill. Obviously there will be a multitude of factors, especially with leaf fall in autumn, but also events like today's signalling problems, which could affect the service on the NDL. However, the train still has leeway for connections at Guildford towards Portsmouth, Woking, and routes via Effingham Junction. I note Deepgreen's never ending quest to connect with the 0831 service from Redhill, but this is not an official connection which should not be able to be planned using tools available to passengers, and a number of other local connections towards Horsham, as well as Merstham and Coulsdon South, are still maintained at Redhill anyway.

There is an element of truth to this, but that's not at the core of the issue for me here - which is the almost built-in unreliability caused by such short turn-round times, of which this is just one example. Of most concern is when, owing to a late Reading departure, much more time is lost en route, resulting in the train omitting stops such as my little Betchworth, which has happened a few times lately and which is disastrous! I think I would prefer a later Reading departure and a much more reliable train even if the 0831 is sure to be missed at Redhill - at least there would be more certainty provided.

BTW, I do realise that the GW-to-0831 change at Redhill is not an advertised connection, and my issue in that situation is much more about the policy of holding the 0831 (and other similar trains) for a few seconds for those which have already arrived to be able to cross the platform and board, rather than an expectation for the GW train always to arrive on time to allow the change - but that's not for this thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

ISTR that Wrexham Central trains have a -2 turnaround time in the public timetable. That is, the train is timetabled to leave two minutes before the inbound working arrives.

 

[PHILIPE]

ISTR that Wrexham Central trains have a -2 turnaround time in the public timetable. That is, the train is timetabled to leave two minutes before the inbound working arrives.

But the minimum of 3 minutes in Working Times

 

[adrock1976]

Does the Bidston - Wrexham Central ever terminate short if it is running excessively late to help it get back on schedule?

 

[bolli]

Does the Bidston - Wrexham Central ever terminate short if it is running excessively late to help it get back on schedule?

Yes.

Several terminated at Shotton this week due to signalling problems...

 

[edwin_m]

EMT's Norwich services have around 21min turnaround at Lime Street, which seems a little short for such a long journey but is exacerbated by also being a mandatory crew break. So if it arrives more than a few minutes late it will also depart late, and probably get stuck behind the stopper to Oxford Road.

 

[notlob.divad]

EMT's Norwich services have around 21min turnaround at Lime Street, which seems a little short for such a long journey but is exacerbated by also being a mandatory crew break. So if it arrives more than a few minutes late it will also depart late, and probably get stuck behind the stopper to Oxford Road.

And my experience of using the inbound of this train is that if it is heading through Manchester a little late, they do on occasion throw the Lime Street Stopper out in front of it, meaning that the train is guaranteed to Crawl at least as far as Liverpool South Parkway and thus be guaranteed to be late.

 

[edwin_m]

And my experience of using the inbound of this train is that if it is heading through Manchester a little late, they do on occasion throw the Lime Street Stopper out in front of it, meaning that the train is guaranteed to Crawl at least as far as Liverpool South Parkway and thus be guaranteed to be late.

Exactly - to be fair they have little alternative, as if the stopper leaves Oxford Road late it will probably hold up the next fast before it reaches Liverpool. In theory they can put the stoppers onto the slow line at South Parkway for the fasts to overtake, but I don't know how often it happens. But if the fast has been stuck behind the stopper all the way from Manchester it's probably already too late by then to avoid the same fate on its return journey.

 

[craigybagel]

EMT's Norwich services have around 21min turnaround at Lime Street, which seems a little short for such a long journey but is exacerbated by also being a mandatory crew break. So if it arrives more than a few minutes late it will also depart late, and probably get stuck behind the stopper to Oxford Road.

Surely the same crew don't bring the same unit back out though? Do they not have 1 hour 21 minutes (minus walking and handover time) in Liverpool?

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm fairly sure most of the EMT crews have booked rest in the broom cupboard at Lime St, bringing back the next train.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm fairly sure most of the EMT crews have booked rest in the broom cupboard at Lime St, bringing back the next train.

By "next" do you mean the same train, or the one an hour later? My source led me to believe it was the same train.

 

[craigybagel]

By "next" do you mean the same train, or the one an hour later? My source led me to believe it was the same train.

Once you include walking time you don't have enough time to have any kind of break on a 21 minute turnaround I would have thought.

Looking at the times, the traincrew leave Nottingham at xx47, and arive back there at ,xx,:27, 5.40 hrs later. Certainly at my own TOC that would be an illegal diagram without a break, which would be impossible in a 21 minute window at a station the size of Lime Street, but I can't speak for EMT.

 

[Skoodle]

London Overground trains have six minutes turnaround at Crystal Palace. However with a 20mph Temporary Speed Restriction between Honor Oak Park and Forest Hill, and another between Sydenham to Crystal Palace (which has been there for well over six months now), it's incredibly difficult to achieve a right time departure.

 

[Chapeltom]

Exactly - to be fair they have little alternative, as if the stopper leaves Oxford Road late it will probably hold up the next fast before it reaches Liverpool. In theory they can put the stoppers onto the slow line at South Parkway for the fasts to overtake, but I don't know how often it happens. But if the fast has been stuck behind the stopper all the way from Manchester it's probably already too late by then to avoid the same fate on its return journey.

I frequently used both the stoppers and the express services between 2011 and 2014. The stopper waited for up to about 8-9 minutes for a late running express particularly the :16 stopper. I've been on the stopper that has gone into the loop at Glazebrook and let the express fly by.

The stoppers are put on the slow lines to let late running expresses by too and yeah, if they follow the stopper into Lime Street, they would be arriving around the time their return journey is supposed to set off. If I remember right, the :44 off Oxford arrives into Lime Street around :52 the next hour.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Once you include walking time you don't have enough time to have any kind of break on a 21 minute turnaround I would have thought.

Looking at the times, the traincrew leave Nottingham at xx47, and arive back there at ,xx,:27, 5.40 hrs later. Certainly at my own TOC that would be an illegal diagram without a break, which would be impossible in a 21 minute window at a station the size of Lime Street, but I can't speak for EMT.

Sundays to Fridays Senior Conductors who are working an 'out and back diagram' between Nottingham and Liverpool have a 'short break' of 20 minutes exclusive of walking time at Liverpool. The 'short break' can be taken on the unit in the saloon or the driving cab.

Saturdays only at present Senior Conductors during the daytime are booked a full PNB including walking time at Liverpool so a full crew change will take place between approximately 1020 and 1920, other services work to the 'out and back diagram' principle and only have a short break, but are also then only a Liverpool for the Conductor.

Drivers have a full PNB booked at Liverpool 7 days a week (I think!).

The Cheshire Lines Committee route runs well most of the day, its only at the peak times that huge delays come into play when the Northern stoppers run 20-30s overtime at each station and that builds into a few minutes, with the longer blocks between Glazebrook and Hunts Cross you almost always catch up the stopper. If you don't you usually end up sitting outside Lime Street waiting for the TPE and Northern stopper to depart before you drop into your platform. The worst performing trains on the route are probably 1L06 which usually catches up a stopper after Irlam, and 1R90 which in four years I've worked it has always caught up a late running Northern stopper at Warrington and followed it all the way to West Allerton.

In short, 90% of delays incurred between Manchester and Liverpool are down to the Northern services which aren't the best timekeepers, remove those from the route and you fly through.

 

[Statto]

EMT's Norwich services have around 21min turnaround at Lime Street, which seems a little short for such a long journey but is exacerbated by also being a mandatory crew break. So if it arrives more than a few minutes late it will also depart late, and probably get stuck behind the stopper to Oxford Road.

TPE doesn't have much turn around time at Liverpool Lime Street either, about 10 minutes, as Newcastle trains interwork the Scarborough service & vice versa.

 

[Kite159]

TPE doesn't have much turn around time at Liverpool Lime Street either, about 10 minutes, as Newcastle trains interwork the Scarborough service & vice versa.

Which due to the legendary time keeping ability of TPE normally means the inbound service from Newcastle is late and it gets put out after the Manchester stopper

 

[sd0733]

At Lime street, the 23:34 (23:35WTT) to crewe is formed off the 23:31 arrival from Birmingham. Almost impossible to get swapped ends, set up and out again in that time particularly on a Friday when it's busy. That one also relies on the Northern stopper you follow from South parkway (arr 23:30) and the virgin arrival from euston into plat 7 (are 23:34) being on time

 

[Ianno87]

At Lime street, the 23:34 (23:35WTT) to crewe is formed off the 23:31 arrival from Birmingham. Almost impossible to get swapped ends, set up and out again in that time particularly on a Friday when it's busy. That one also relies on the Northern stopper you follow from South parkway (arr 23:30) and the virgin arrival from euston into plat 7 (are 23:34) being on time

The performance of the conflicting Virgin arrival into 7 will itself be dependent upon the performance of the Birmingham arrival, as it will follow it from South Parkway, so a late LM arrival will create reactionary delay to its own departure!

 

[D1009]

There is an element of truth to this, but that's not at the core of the issue for me here - which is the almost built-in unreliability caused by such short turn-round times, of which this is just one example. Of most concern is when, owing to a late Reading departure, much more time is lost en route, resulting in the train omitting stops such as my little Betchworth, which has happened a few times lately and which is disastrous! I think I would prefer a later Reading departure and a much more reliable train even if the 0831 is sure to be missed at Redhill - at least there would be more certainty provided.

BTW, I do realise that the GW-to-0831 change at Redhill is not an advertised connection, and my issue in that situation is much more about the policy of holding the 0831 (and other similar trains) for a few seconds for those which have already arrived to be able to cross the platform and board, rather than an expectation for the GW train always to arrive on time to allow the change - but that's not for this thread.

Is this a worse issue than normal because of the leaf fall season? Presumably there is no leaf fall timetable on that route?

 

[jhy44]

The Nottingham-Cardiff is only given 18 minutes in the public timetable to turn around at Cardiff, which whilst isn't the shortest, it is short for a long distance service, and very short for performing a reversal at Cardiff Central given its restrictive signalling (aka carry on going West, cross all the tracks, then come back in).

It is often turned back at Newport, and at the very last minute therefore not giving everyone waiting at Cardiff time to get an eastbound train to make the connection, much to our delight. If one sees the down train is running late from Gloucester; one would be wise to get to Newport quickly as an insurance.

The Aberystwyth-Birmingham used to more frequently be an Aberystwyth-Wolverhampton until they extended to International, good on Arriva for resolving that.

 

[embers25]

There is an element of truth to this, but that's not at the core of the issue for me here - which is the almost built-in unreliability caused by such short turn-round times, of which this is just one example. Of most concern is when, owing to a late Reading departure, much more time is lost en route, resulting in the train omitting stops such as my little Betchworth, which has happened a few times lately and which is disastrous! I think I would prefer a later Reading departure and a much more reliable train even if the 0831 is sure to be missed at Redhill - at least there would be more certainty provided.

BTW, I do realise that the GW-to-0831 change at Redhill is not an advertised connection, and my issue in that situation is much more about the policy of holding the 0831 (and other similar trains) for a few seconds for those which have already arrived to be able to cross the platform and board, rather than an expectation for the GW train always to arrive on time to allow the change - but that's not for this thread.

The 0721 from Shalford is due in Reading at 0819 (WTT 0815) and due to leave after reversing at 0818 (WTT 0818). This train also follows in the 0815 arrival from Waterloo which can never be too early as it has to wait for the 0809 to Waterloo to leave. Rather unsurprisingly it was only on time (ish) once last week!

 

[The Planner]

The Aberystwyth-Birmingham used to more frequently be an Aberystwyth-Wolverhampton until they extended to International, good on Arriva for resolving that.

That was more for the December 2008 VHF timetable and getting it out of New St for a long period of time, it wasn't strictly ATWs doing.