Unavailability of tickets - Woolwich Arsenal

[blakey1152]

I went to the Imberbus day last Saturday and had arranged to go with some friends of mine.

I had already checked it out, the cheapest way to get there was using my Family and Friends Railcard and get a Super Off-Peak Day return from Woolwich Arsenal to Westbury.
This ticket allowed me the flexibility to break my journey at Warminster (Then carry on to Westbury after the event and catch the train back to London Waterloo and get a seat!!!)

As it's a walk up ticket, I fully expected to be able to purchase this from the ticket machine at Woolwich Arsenal (The ticket office wasn't open yet - as it was before 6am) but lo and behold - All the Southeastern ticket machine would offer me was the more expensive Off-Peak Day return.

I can't remember how much the price difference was but it was around a tenner for the 2 adults and 1 child with the railcard more than the equally valid super off-peak day return.

Fortunately, Trainpal to the rescue, as I purchased the ticket I wanted on the app and picked it up straight away.

I sent a tweet to Southeastern asking why the full range of walk up tickets wasn't available and they first responded with that all walk up tickets are available from the machine - its only Advances that aren't.
They asked what ticket I tried to buy and I told them it was the super off peak day return to Westbury via Salisbury and Warminster and they said they'd have to look into it

Needless to say I didn't get a response back after that...

Is this common practice for Southeastern machines not to offer the expected full range of tickets?
I felt sorry for anyone who didn't know and ended up paying more.

Blakey

 

[maxbarnish]

This is one of my home stations. I generally do find TVMs issue a limited range especially outside the TOC's own area - I like to get tickets online if possible. This route seems to have had its oddities for me anyway - I go Exeter Central or Cranbrook to Woolwich Arsenal or Welling, and the prices and options seem to vary from trip to trip. Sometimes it's better to split at Cranbrook even if not starting there, sometimes I split ticket at Waterloo. I don't really understand it, but what I can say is that I find a lot of inconsistency and anomalies on routes that involve both Southeastern and SWR.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I take it this would be one of the S&B machines?

 

[carriageline]

I recently travelled from Kent to London St Panc, returning the next day.

I bought a single one way ticket. On the train, I then went on the trainline to see what options I had, and saw I could have bought an open return for £10 less than the price I paid for a single.

I can see why people get annoyed with the costs, as it looks like people are “deliberately” ripped off. I wasn’t overly happy as that option wasn’t on the screen?

 

[furlong]

Yes, this sounds like the common, well-known and long-standing problem (many years) where some of the ticket variants (typically super off-peak) are not offered for sale from certain machines and some passengers must unknowingly be paying too much for their journeys. Just another of the scandals that the powers that be in the fragmented railway don't seem interested in addressing, but if you ask me, it's about time the ORR attempted to prosecute certain train companies for this, and made them offer refunds where the purchasers are traceable (e.g. paid by card).

 

[James H]

Conversely, it used to be the case that at Waterloo, only the Southeastern machines at Waterloo East offered Super Off Peak tickets to SE destinations, whilst if you used the machines on the main concourse (then SWT-managed) that you would be sold a more expensive ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

I take it this would be one of the S&B machines?

If it's like other SE machines on the Dartford lines then it will be S&B.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If it's like other SE machines on the Dartford lines then it will be S&B.

Funnily enough i was party to a discussion about their short comings on Wednesday.

 

[Bensonby]

Where would one stand in respect of penalty rates/prosecution if the OP had not bought any ticket and tried to purchase the one he wanted at the first available ticket office?

 

[maxbarnish]

In practice would be prosecuted for sure. In theory as per the rules, maybe not - but the problem is that things are not always/often done as per the rules, and if those in power don't follow the rules, have a lot of power and are hard to hold to account, then it leaves the public in a perilous position. I would just get the best fare available at the point of sale.

 

[yorkie]

Was there a note on the machine with a warning that the full range wasn't available?

Where would one stand in respect of penalty rates/prosecution if the OP had not bought any ticket and tried to purchase the one he wanted at the first available ticket office?

The customer should be able to buy at the first opportunity, but I recommend the OP writes to Southeastern asking for clarification regarding what they should do in future.

Depending on the answers to these questions, there may be evidence of wrongdoing by Southeastern.

 

[blakey1152]

Okay, I've written a few e-mails to Southeastern - First using Twitter where I was assured that I would get a response but no matter how I tried to follow this up on Twitter it got ignored. So I then spoke to someone on the phone.....
On the phone I explained that the full range of walk up tickets was not available from Woolwich Arsenal TVM and that I used an app to purchase the correct ticket that I wanted and pick it up at exactly the same machine using TOD.

Email response 1 :

Thank you for contacting us on 6 September, in relation to the recent problems you experienced using the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM)

I’m very sorry you were able to find your ticket cheaper than was advertised on our Ticket Vending Machine (TVM). I can appreciate this must have been very frustrating.

Under our Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) price guarantee we’re happy to consider a refund on the difference between the two ticket prices. In order for us to be able to do this, we’d need a copy of the ticket you purchased, and evidence of where you found the ticket cheaper.

In order to look into this further, please could you provide evidence of the tickets you purchased via our contact form: https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/get-in-touch/contact-us, please allow up to 10 working days to receive a response.

Once again, please accept my apologies that you had to pay more for your ticket on this occasion. I do hope the next time you travel with us you’ll be able to purchase the ticket you need.

They've totally misunderstood so I responded with this :-

Good morning,

I'm contacting you again regarding a complaint that I put in with your case reference S20190906-1970233.

It seems that the reply to my original complaint was mis-understood.

My complaint which was placed both on Twitter and via the telephone was asking why your Ticket Machines do not offer the full range of walk up tickets.

I wanted to buy a Super Off Peak Weekend Day return from Woolwich Arsenal to Westbury via Salisbury and Warminster on Saturday 17th August.
At the time I needed to travel the ticket office was closed so I attempted to use the ticket machine to purchase the ticket and was surprised to find that the ticket was not offered and instead a more expensive Off Peak Day return ticket which offered identical validity to the ticket I wanted to purchase but was more expensive.

It's only because I knew the ticket that I wanted to get beforehand that I was aware of the price difference and I had to use an app (TrainPal) to purchase the ticket I wanted and pay the correct lower price and pick it up whilst standing at your ticket machine and using the TOD facility.

The full range of tickets and in particular the cheapest option should be available at your ticket machines but in this case and I am quite sure that this can't be the only unavailable ticket it was not.

When I posted on Twitter I was assured that it would be looked into by CH and despite several tweets back no response was heard so I contacted your customer services team via Telephone who have responded back and again avoided the question that I asked.

It's good to know that you have a Guarantee against being overcharged on the ticket machines if a cheaper ticket was available but how would a member of the general public who just walked up to buy a ticket and was offered a more expensive one believing it to be the cheapest know that a cheaper option was available? - making it very difficult to claim if you are unaware.

I look forward to your response,

And they replied with this....

I'm sorry we've misunderstood your recent complaint regarding the ticket availability at our Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs). I can certainly appreciate how frustrating this must be for you.

I understand as the Ticket Office was closed on 17 August, you had to purchase your ticket from the TVM. This meant you purchased a Off-Peak Day Return ticket rather than a Super Off-Peak Day Return, which was more expensive.



Our TVMs do offer all available tickets to our passengers, so you should have been able to purchase a Super Off-Peak Day Return. I can only apologise as this must have been unclear to you. We are always working on our TVMs, to improve the functionality for our passengers.

When travelling, the on board conductor will often advise if you've overpaid for your ticket, and advise you on how to obtain a partial refund.

If you're able to let us know which ticket you were intending to purchase, and send us a copy of the ticket you actually purchased, we can consider a partial refund.

Additionally, please could you let us know if you travelled from Woolwich Arsenal to Westbury via Salisbury or Warminster.

You can provide this information to us by replying to this email, or via our online Contact us form at: https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/get-in-touch/contact-us

Once again, please accept my apologies for the inconvenience this caused you. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Again...
They've just totally missed the point. In fact now saying their machines do offer all tickets but they still seem to think that I bought the more expensive ticket and of course I didn't.

Any suggestions on what to respond back with now?

Blakey

 

[yorkie]

I think this should go to the Ombudsman and/or London Travelwatch.

I'd be curious to learn what their policy is regarding the ticket office being closed and the cheapest fare not being available: do they expect passengers should overpay, and claim back the difference? or do they allow passengers to board the train without a ticket? you may want to directly ask them if passengers are deemed liable for a Penalty Fare if they do not buy a ticket in these circumstances

Also, are there warning notices on the machines indicating that the full range is not available, and giving appropriate instructions on how to obtain the full range?

Depending on the answers to these questions, the company may well be in breach of consumer law.

If this is widespread, a class action lawsuit could be a possibility.

 

[Haywain]

In practice would be prosecuted for sure.

Nonsense. Ther's a chance of it going that way, certainly, but a penalty fare or being let off are more likely.

 

[RJ]

It is the case that TVMs have some walk up fares missing and you may well be charged more for your journey than if you bought at a ticket office.

I don't know how Southeastern do their thing but where I am, we don't penalise customers if they wanted a ticket not available from the TVM.

Southeastern's customer service department genuinely seems to assume that the customer is always wrong by default and you have to keep on at them before they will consider your feedback objectively. Whether it's worth the effort is a matter for the individual to decide.