Uncomfortable trains of old

[Iskra]

Wooden seats were still in use on the line from North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level - Palace Gates in the late 1950s/early 1960s when a few 'Quad-art' sets were still in use, similar to that preserved on the North Norfolk Railway. They were replaced by various LNER and BR suburban coaches until around the mid-1960s when DMUs ran all services. These in turn were replaced by class416/3 EPB units from 1985 onwards.

Very interesting, thanks for the information

 

[AM9]

I not sure if Class 305s were much better

In the '50s/'60s when they were introduced, the 304s, 305s, 307's and 308's all had roughtly the same seats. The 6-a-side compartment seats were so bouncy that many passengers' shirts were pulled out of trousers as the backs were fixed to the walls. The saloon 2 & 3 seats were only slightly better than the 6s because being shorter, they didn't bounce as much. The seats in the 306s were far better, - the bogies on them gave a less bouncy ride, and their open carriages didn't have the same extreme heating issues.
There's a lot of rose tinted views on MKI era seating here.

 

[6Gman]

One of the interesting features of AM4s was the harmonic frequency of every spring between the rail and the top of the seat cushion. Every one must have been either the same or an integer factor, and there was also a co-incidence with the time duration between railjoints.
That might sound like gobbledegook, but the effect was that, if you were a passenger and the AM4 was travelling on jointed track with slightly dipped joints at about 60 mph (e.g. Piccadilly to Stockport) you would find yourself bouncing up and down with a greater and greater amplitude as every spring magnified the imperfections. You would lift off the seat. Quite a design feat.

I am grateful to the Hon Member for providing a technical explanation for something I was very familiar with.

 

[Sprinter107]

It wasn't a 117 because it wasn't high density layout.

Having been on a few on preserved railways, some 1st gen DMU's are better than others, and some, like the Calder Valley ones are quite decent. But I have to admit, my first impression that day was "this is supposed to be better than a thumper how exactly ?"

Possibly a class 101, Metro Cammell set. Reading put some of those on the Reading to Gatwick and Tonbridge services.

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly a class 101, Metro Cammell set. Reading put some of those on the Reading to Gatwick and Tonbridge services.

Yes, it was definitely a bit basic compared to what I was used to.

 

[delt1c]

Yes, it was definitely a bit basic compared to what I was used to.

If you think it was basic you should have tried a 105. That was rough

 

[yorksrob]

If you think it was basic you should have tried a 105. That was rough

I don't believe I've ever had that pleasure !

 

[Sprinter107]

I never managed a ride on a 105 either. I've read quite a few reports about that class of dmu not giving the best journey experience.

 

[delt1c]

Trust me unless you are a sadomasochistic a journey in a 105 DMBS was no pleasure. Eyes streaming from exhaust fumes, ears also perforated from windows , luggage racks and anything else that could rattle. And a ride quality that played havoc with any body suffering from “ farmer Giles”. And that was before they left the station

 

[yorksrob]

Trust me unless you are a sadomasochistic a journey in a 105 DMBS was no pleasure. Eyes streaming from exhaust fumes, ears also perforated from windows , luggage racks and anything else that could rattle. And a ride quality that played havoc with any body suffering from “ farmer Giles”. And that was before they left the station

A trip on them sounds exciting, if nothing else.

From the photos, their sears look more comfortable than those in a Merseyrail pacer though !

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just for you Del, here's the preserved Cravens 105 at the East Lancs Rly a couple of years ago (hope the pics don't trouble your Farmer Giles too badly)

 

[delt1c]

Just for you Del, here's the preserved Cravens 105 at the East Lancs Rly a couple of years ago (hope the pics don't trouble your Farmer Giles too badly)

The pictures bring tears to my eyes and will give me nightmares. Give me a pacer with original seats any day, now where is that cream and inflatable ring

 

[AJM580]

Trust me unless you are a sadomasochistic a journey in a 105 DMBS was no pleasure. Eyes streaming from exhaust fumes, ears also perforated from windows , luggage racks and anything else that could rattle. And a ride quality that played havoc with any body suffering from “ farmer Giles”. And that was before they left the station

Always remember a ride from Cambridge to Peterborough one Sunday on a Cravens - it felt as if the unit had square wheels as we lurched over every rail-joint and set of points. The saving grace of this was a trip to the NVR for Deltic 9000.

Come to think of it, some of the NVRs continental stock have got wooden seats - think it may be the Norwegian coaches. They're not that brilliant either

 

[Bevan Price]

The above-mentioned Gresley Quad-Arts were pretty grim, and some finished their days on Kings Cross suburban services. Seats upholstered but hard & narrow with very little legroom. Much worse than most of the other ex-LNER non-corridor stock.

 

[crosscity]

In reality the horsehair and wire spring squabs in mk1 compartment stock were pretty grim.
Smelly, dusty, broken springs, prickly and underseat heating which singed your backside

I think you were unlucky. I never had a ride in a Mark I compartment that was grim. Alright, it may have been a bouncy ride and occasionally too hot, but I never got backache and you could open the window or door, or even stand next to an open droplight. I made plenty of 5-hour plus journeys in them.

I nominate the 2-car Cravens dmu with the vibrating windows and bus-type seats as the most uncomfortable trains in the seventies. Saying that I never made a journey of more than an hour in one so they didn't stand out as all that bad.

 

[randyrippley]

I think you were unlucky. I never had a ride in a Mark I compartment that was grim. Alright, it may have been a bouncy ride and occasionally too hot, but I never got backache and you could open the window or door, or even stand next to an open droplight. I made plenty of 5-hour plus journeys in them.

I nominate the 2-car Cravens dmu with the vibrating windows and bus-type seats as the most uncomfortable trains in the seventies. Saying that I never made a journey of more than an hour in one so they didn't stand out as all that bad.

I must have been permanently unlucky then....in reality I think you have selective memory

 

[Merle Haggard]

I am grateful to the Hon Member for providing a technical explanation for something I was very familiar with.

Thank you! A level Physics 1967. It is sometimes useful in the real world...

 

[topydre]

Trust me unless you are a sadomasochistic a journey in a 105 DMBS was no pleasure. Eyes streaming from exhaust fumes, ears also perforated from windows , luggage racks and anything else that could rattle. And a ride quality that played havoc with any body suffering from “ farmer Giles”. And that was before they left the station

I've been in a 105 at the Llangollen Railway. Literally everything was rattling - racks and everything. Headache-inducing! It was actually great fun as a heritage railway experience and I'm glad she's survived but don't think I'd want to use them for long journeys on a regular basis...

 

[30907]

I nominate the 2-car Cravens dmu with the vibrating windows and bus-type seats as the most uncomfortable trains in the seventies. Saying that I never made a journey of more than an hour in one so they didn't stand out as all that bad.

Can't check ATM but my then fiancee (of a couple of weeks!) did Ely-Worksop via the Joint line one Saturday in 1982 to see friends. Fairly certain it was a Cravens.
Reader, she married me and has survived 38 years...
(It was the replacement for the North Country Continental which by then went via Nottingham, and it was as quick as going via Peterborough. Anyway, March-Spalding was about to close.)

 

[AM9]

I must have been permanently unlucky then....in reality I think you have selective memory

Given that most of those who can remember MKIs in noormal service must be 60+ now, so even they would have been in their thirties then.

 

[Bevan Price]

Cravens did eventually solve the rattling windows & components problems - their later Classes 112 and 113 were much quieter. Unfortunately, these versions with Rolls Royce engines proved to be very unreliable and had short lives.

 

[Sprinter107]

All dmus rattled to an extent, but it seems the Cravens ones were worse than any other from what I've read. It would be interesting to know what it was that Cravens did, or didn't do, during construction, to make them that bad.

 

[D1537]

Given that most of those who can remember MKIs in noormal service must be 60+ now, so even they would have been in their thirties then.

Given that MkI hauled stock survived into the early 90s, I'm pretty sure that most of us aren't 60+ ! I'm in my early 50s, and was commuting to work in my early 20s on MkI loco-hauled trains.

 

[crosscity]

I must have been permanently unlucky then....in reality I think you have selective memory

I don't think so. I would always choose a compartment over an open saloon if there was a choice. It was just a personal choice. Dirty and overheated, along with broken springs could apply to 'open' seats too so wouldn't they be just as grim? Perhaps you just prefer open stock.

 

[Cowley]

Can't check ATM but my then fiancee (of a couple of weeks!) did Ely-Worksop via the Joint line one Saturday in 1982 to see friends. Fairly certain it was a Cravens.
Reader, she married me and has survived 38 years...
(It was the replacement for the North Country Continental which by then went via Nottingham, and it was as quick as going via Peterborough. Anyway, March-Spalding was about to close.)

I think think that’s worth a nod 30907...

 

[43096]

There are quite a few contenders on this...

- almost any Mark 1 second class seat: it is ironic that we complain about ironing boards and their straight backs, when Mark 1s had near vertical backs and certainly weren’t ergonomically designed.
- add to that the ride quality on the 304s
- Pacer bus seats. The Chapman seats fitted to the 143s make these the best of a bad lot.
- a special place in hell is reserved for the VEPs. Seats as above, but combined with the door and window arrangement giving freezing cold in winter and stifling hot in summer. Special kudos for being totally out of date before they’d even left the drawing board.

 

[32475]

In reality the horsehair and wire spring squabs in mk1 compartment stock were pretty grim.
Smelly, dusty, broken springs, prickly and underseat heating which singed your backside

That really takes me back to any stuffy journey on a hot airless summer's day getting the train home in my school shorts and getting a moquette imprint on the back of my legs!

 

[KevinTurvey]

I never really thought the original seats on the PEP type units was particularly comfortable, although the ride quality was better than the 502/503 they replaced.

Re the mark 1's - these were still running on Holyhead-Crewe-Birminghams until late 2000 - excluding the SR EMU's were these the last on mainline service trains?

 

[crosscity]

Given that most of those who can remember MKIs in noormal service must be 60+ now, so even they would have been in their thirties then.

I am in my sixties, but most of my Mark I journeys were in the seventies, aged 14-23 - earlier on loco-hauled trains and 304 emu's; later on Southern emu's (VEPS, CIGS, CEPS etc).

I have loved travelling by train my whole life and still get a thrill catching them now. Except for extremely cold or hot trains it is very rare that the stock makes for unpleasant journeys. My worst journeys usually have overcrowding, lateness, cancellations or missed connections as factors.

 

[davetheguard]

Possibly a class 101, Metro Cammell set. Reading put some of those on the Reading to Gatwick and Tonbridge services.

Of all the first generation DMU's I travelled on, which was probably about three quarters of the various classes, I seem to remember the 101's as having really uncomfortable seats; with a sort of backwards curve that meant the top of your spine was bent backwards in an unnatural way. Far worse than a 700!