'Undercover' PC Damian Groves dodged train fares

[Larry Trapp]

From BBC News:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46426618

A police officer has been found guilty of gross misconduct after he lied about being undercover to avoid train fares.

PC Damian Groves, of West Yorkshire Police, was on a Virgin East Coast Train from Leeds to Peterborough on 26 April when he refused to pay the £86 fare.

He showed the guard his police warrant card and asked why it was so expensive.

When he was confronted about in Northampton, he said he was conducting "undercover work".

Groves produced his warrant card instead of buying a ticket on another Virgin East Coast train from Peterborough to Leeds on 12 May.

• Latest news and stories from Yorkshire

A disciplinary panel heard how he asked for, but was repeatedly refused, permission to run a scuba diving business while being a police officer, which eventually resulted in a final written warning last December.

Police officers can pursue other business interests as long as it does not interfere with their main job and the force gives them permission.

After more than two hours of deliberation on Monday, the panel found two counts of gross misconduct were proven.

Groves will find out on Tuesday if he will be sacked from the force.

Are police allowed to travel free on trains normally or do they have to pay and claim expenses from their employer like everyone else ?

 

[cuccir]

Without knowing about it, presumably it depends on context. If an officer follows a suspect onto a train and the suspect doesn't stop to buy a ticket, presumably they can; if nothing else, which TOC is going to attempt to bring a prosecution in those circumstances?!?

However, if an officer is (say) making pre-planned travel for a conference then presumably they are expected to a buy a ticket.

 

[PermitToTravel]

is there any context where a police officer will legitimately say they're undercover? kinda ruins the whole point, no?

 

[HH]

There is no overall agreement that all police officers travel free I don't think, however many TOCs have had a policy (often it's free in uniform) and in London there is a scheme where the Met pay an amount so all their officers can travel free.

 

[bionic]

There is no overall agreement that all police officers travel free I don't think, however many TOCs have had a policy (often it's free in uniform) and in London there is a scheme where the Met pay an amount so all their officers can travel free.

My understanding is the police have to pay themselves out of their wages in London to get the "free" travel, so it's not actually free st all any more. I was talking to an ex-copper who told me many of them are resentful of this and will keep their heads down when there's trouble or a PA made for the police rather than offer their support, which they would have done without question when it really was free. Said ex-copper said the way his conditions and pension got screwed was the catalyst for him jacking it in and joining the railway.

 

[FlippyFF]

I was on a Southeastern high speed service early one morning from Ashford to St Pancras and the on-board manager was having a little 'discussion' with a passenger over a fare. This took place in the front car, the OBM having worked his way through from the rear of the train. When stalemate was reached, the OBM made a PA announcement for any police officers on the train to make their way to the front car (I suspect knowing how many warrant cards he'd seen). No less than eight non-uniformed officers turned up. There were a couple more I observed in the front coach who chose to stay where they were. At the time a high speed annual season ticket from Ashford to St Pancras cost £5,500, how much 'legal' free travel do you give away incase you need help with the 'illegal' free travel (I've also seen them respond to calls for medical assistance on board too)?

 

[357]

how much 'legal' free travel do you give away incase you need help with the 'illegal' free travel (I've also seen them respond to calls for medical assistance on board too)?

Remember that these same people could be giving a hand in much more than ticketing issues - you have already pointed out medical assistance.

I have had off duty officers assist with a huge range of incidents, including fights, heart attacks, strokes, run away children, suicidal people and fatalities.

There are always some who will abuse the privilege but others are a credit to their force and profession.

 

[DarloRich]

I suspect the issue is the dishonesty here rather than whether, or not, policemen travel free.

 

[reb0118]

Only once in 21 years have I had the police in plain clothes boarding my train claiming to be following a suspect.

In that incident one officer followed the suspect & one identified himself to me and discreetly informed me of the circumstances. I was also asked to inform them of the destination shown on any ticket presented by the suspect.

 

[furnessvale]

My understanding is the police have to pay themselves out of their wages in London to get the "free" travel, so it's not actually free st all any more. I was talking to an ex-copper who told me many of them are resentful of this and will keep their heads down when there's trouble or a PA made for the police rather than offer their support, which they would have done without question when it really was free. Said ex-copper said the way his conditions and pension got screwed was the catalyst for him jacking it in and joining the railway.

Yes. The Edmond Davies report sorted out problems of low police pay and said, going forward, police would receive the average pay rise annually that other similar groups received. This was to compensate for the inability to take any form of industrial action.

However, Edmond Davies made a fatal mistake in that no mention was made of conditions. Therefore as other groups started to receive better conditions, maybe an hour shaved off the working week etc, police did not. Management took the attitude that such enhancements had to be purchased out of the annual pay rise. Complaints by the Police Federation that other groups had already received those enhancements BEFORE calculation of the pay rise fell on deaf ears. Over the years, the discrepancy in pay that gave rise to Edmond Davies in the first place has reappeared.

 

[johntea]

From the sounds of the article it sounds like VTEC may have had a quiet word with his employer who then went through their disciplinary procedures rather than actually seeking to prosecute for the ticket dodging

 

[J-Rod]

I suspect the issue is the dishonesty here rather than whether, or not, policemen travel free.

Yeah, I think you might be right. He sounds like a bit of a naughty boy, maybe the sort of constable chappie who might stick his blues and twos on when coming off night shift at rush hour and wants to get back for a cup of tea. Possibly.

Anyway, a policeman abusing his position? Fancy that!

 

[furnessvale]

Yeah, I think you might be right. He sounds like a bit of a naughty boy, maybe the sort of constable chappie who might stick his blues and twos on when coming off night shift at rush hour and wants to get back for a cup of tea. Possibly.

Anyway, a policeman abusing his position? Fancy that!

Indeed! and the first post shows what happens to officers caught doing just that. He will be lucky indeed to keep his job and no chance of a strike ballot from the union to force the management hand.

Anyone thinking the police look after their own in such matters is sadly mistaken. When the rubber heelers come in you've had your chips!

 

[CyrusWuff]

In general, serving officers (but not civilian staff) get free travel in their force's area, which is documented in the "Staff Travel" section of KnowledgeBase. Some TOCs also have local agreements that aren't documented.

BTP get free travel across the network, for obvious reasons.

City of London and Met Police get 35 or 70 miles from London free, depending on when they joined, and have ITSO smartcards to validate said free travel.

 

[furnessvale]

In general, serving officers (but not civilian staff) get free travel in their force's area, which is documented in the "Staff Travel" section of KnowledgeBase. Some TOCs also have local agreements that aren't documented.

BTP get free travel across the network, for obvious reasons.

City of London and Met Police get 35 or 70 miles from London free, depending on when they joined, and have ITSO smartcards to validate said free travel.

Things have changed since I retired then! I had to purchase a priv season ticket and use date boxes like any other "rail" employee.

 

[Randomer]

What a fool, losing a 30k a year job over a under £100 rail fare.

Things have changed since I retired then! I had to purchase a priv season ticket and use date boxes like any other "rail" employee.

Presuming the previous poster meant on duty.

BTP don't get free travel off duty throughout the network unless it has changed in the past couple of years. London based was within a 70 miles commute (same as Met and City) otherwise the figure in my head is 35 miles with a priv rate season for any further. I'm sure one of the serving BTP officers on here will be along shortly to inform.

Incidentally Met and City of London Police travel isn't "free" in that both forces pay RDG a fee for it which is then given as a benefit in kind to officers (hence paying tax and a small fee on it). No idea what the deal with BTP paying for it is. Anecdotally it isn't a small fee either.

 

[furnessvale]

What a fool, losing a 30k a year job over a under £100 rail fare.



Presuming the previous poster meant on duty.

BTP don't get free travel off duty throughout the network unless it has changed in the past couple of years. London based was within a 70 miles commute (same as Met and City) otherwise the figure in my head is 35 miles with a priv rate season for any further. I'm sure one of the serving BTP officers on here will be along shortly to inform.

Incidentally Met and City of London Police travel isn't "free" in that both forces pay RDG a fee for it which is then given as a benefit in kind to officers (hence paying tax and a small fee on it). No idea what the deal with BTP paying for it is. Anecdotally it isn't a small fee either.

I never considered THAT possibility! Rather like asking the driver if HE has a ticket!

 

[westinghouseB]

I never question the flash of a warrant card, ive lost count the amount of times ive made an announcement for police assistance and have been assisted by numerous officers travelling home. My TOC requires them to have a Metropolitan Police travel card or buy a season or ticket! I always pass them, as I appreciate the assistance given, when ive been fortunate enough to have them on my train.

 

[DarloRich]

my friend who is a policeman says he is never, really, off duty. He carries a warrant card and is therefore is duty bound to intervene to uphold the law. It all sounds a bit Wyatt Earp but he does have a point!

 

[Dr_Paul]

When my grand-dad was a Met PC, he was able to travel free of charge on London buses, so long as he was in uniform, stood on the rear platform and didn't go inside. But as he retired from the force in 1945, I doubt if this has much relevance today, not least as buses don't have rear platforms these days.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The original article has now been updated to reflect the gross misconduct charge was proved and he has now being sacked for it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46442800

A police officer has been sacked for lying about being undercover to dodge paying a train fare.

PC Damian Groves was on a Virgin East Coast Train from Leeds to Peterborough on 26 April when he refused to pay the £86 fare.

A West Yorkshire Police disciplinary panel heard that he showed a warrant card and claimed he was undercover.

Two counts of gross misconduct were found proven and PC Groves was told he would face "dismissal without notice".

He did not turn up to hear the decision, although he can still appeal against it.

• Latest news and stories from Yorkshire

The three-member panel heard PC Groves showed the train guard his police warrant card, refused to pay the £86 fare and questioned the price of the ticket.

When he got off at Peterborough he told a Virgin East Coast staff member that he did not need to buy a ticket as he was travelling to London to conduct undercover work.

Then on 12 May he again produced his warrant card instead of buying a ticket on another Virgin East Coast train from Peterborough to Leeds.

The panel was told that he asked for, but was repeatedly refused, permission to run a scuba diving business while being a police officer and was given a final written warning in December last year.

 

[nottsnurse]

my friend who is a policeman says he is never, really, off duty. He carries a warrant card and is therefore is duty bound to intervene to uphold the law. It all sounds a bit Wyatt Earp but he does have a point!

The same argument can equally apply to nurses, doctors etc. Whilst we don't carry warrant cards the codes that we work under (NMC, GMC etc) compel us to assist if circumstances call for it, regardless of being off-duty.

 

[greyman42]

At the time a high speed annual season ticket from Ashford to St Pancras cost £5,500, how much 'legal' free travel do you give away incase you need help with the 'illegal' free travel (I've also seen them respond to calls for medical assistance on board too)?

I doubt the on-board manager would be concerned about the £5,500. He would be more focused on that if things turned nasty, he would have eight police officers to back him up.

 

[CyrusWuff]

My apologies. I was reciting from memory, which was clearly off the mark.

Safeguarded BTP Officers and PCSOs (i.e. those who entered service before 1st April 1996) get an allowance of 70 free miles for residential travel (for which they get issued with a residential pass) where their place of work is within the Network Area. For those based outside the Network Area, this drops to 8 miles.

For civilian employees, normal mileage allowances apply (i.e. 8, 12 or 40 miles as appropriate).

The same allowances apply to non-safeguarded officers and PCSOs, with their Warrant/ID cards being the necessary supporting documentation. Non-safeguarded civilian staff get nothing.

City of London and Met Officers (but not PCSOs or civilian staff) who entered service before August 2013 can opt in for free duty, leisure and residential travel. This covers up to 70 miles from London (boundaries are in KnowledgeBase).

Met Officers entering service from August 2013 have been able to opt in to a reduced area of up to 35 miles from London. Again, boundaries are in KnowledgeBase.

 

[Bensonby]

The 70/35 mile travel limit (from Charing Cross) re the Met Police is correct. It is an opt in system and, therefore, a warrant card is not valid for travel. If officers opt in they have a deduction from their monthly pay (currently about £67) and they receive an ITSO smart card. You need to be able to present the ITSO card and a warrant card for it to be valid for travel. I posted a picture of mine on another thread as part of a query when they were first issued: I will try and work out how to link it to this post.

Prior to 2011 this concession was free to all PCs.

TFL travel is under different arrangements and remains free for all Met officers and also Special Constables.

*edit* - pic of the ITSO card: https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/13331e43-02c1-43b5-bd5b-d4bf956d90b1-jpeg.44600/

 

[Bensonby]

Just a couple of quick observations about the original article: the officer in the original story is a very silly man. Fare evasion, or misuse of travel concessions, is considered an extremely serious matter by the police (in the Met at least). The ATOC/RDG scheme is considered an extremely valuable benefit for officers (even if it’s not as good as it used to be) and any abuse undermines he scheme. Even where rail staff have been reluctant to report misuse, or sometimes even cooperate with professional standards investigations, the organisation will strongly discipline officers for misuse - more often than not dismissing them. It just isn’t worth an officer trying to fare evade.

Secondly, I do think the requirement to intervene for an officer is somewhat overstated - as an officer you have that duty irrespective of where you are and whether you are getting a discounted/free service. I do understand that it can reassure staff knowing that officers are present: I know most of my local rail staff because I’ve stepped in to help most at some point or other.

 

[LowLevel]

There are some occasions whereby misbehaviour is stupid - I'm aware of similar whereby a police officer stated to a train guard that they were a police officer (while under the influence) and that they were going to get them into trouble for whatever reason.

The guard then called BTP who asked this individual whether they'd told the guard they were a police officer which they denied. BTP then pointed out that if they'd not said it was the guard psychic or similar and arrested the person in question for misconduct in a public office. A big error all round.

 

[185]

Go where they want on my train, no matter which force. Every pair of hands be it police or staff is worth its weight in gold and in my opinion, only a fool pesters staff or police for a ticket.. that very fool would be the first to go ask someone they've just made pay for a ticket for help, when a passenger is throttling them. Ahem. Rant over.

 

[philthetube]

I never considered THAT possibility! Rather like asking the driver if HE has a ticket!

I have been asked for my pass by LT revenue many years ago when working as a guard on the Northern line (doh )

Go where they want on my train, no matter which force. Every pair of hands be it police or staff is worth its weight in gold and in my opinion, only a fool pesters staff or police for a ticket.. that very fool would be the first to go ask someone they've just made pay for a ticket for help, when a passenger is throttling them. Ahem. Rant over.

Used to be exactly the same when I worked in an all night transport caff, many moons ago, police were always welcome for a cuppa and a midnight snack, this ensured a quick response the couple of times we needed them.

 

[Dieseldriver]

The same argument can equally apply to nurses, doctors etc. Whilst we don't carry warrant cards the codes that we work under (NMC, GMC etc) compel us to assist if circumstances call for it, regardless of being off-duty.

Agreed. Actually come to think of it, if a Freight Train Driver is travelling off duty by train (and therefore has had to buy a full price ticket as they do not get any travel facilities) are they really duty bound to assist in an emergency? Obviously in reality you'd have to be a bit of an a******e not to (unless you'd consumed alcohol).