Underground trains running nonstop through stations?

[AlbertBeale]

So trains travelling towards Marylebone are not speed restricted - but trains from Marylebone are speed restricted?

Presumably, if the 15mph restriction was to do with the Mets testing their tripcocks, that makes sense if fast Mets from Baker Street that were skipping HotH too might move across to run via Platform 1, but fast ones into town switched from the Chiltern tracks before HotH station and didn't run through Platform 2. (From my time in that area years ago, I seem to remember that that was the case - Mets running past P1 but not P2.)

 

[Harsig]

Is this 15 mph? (platform 1 Harrow On the Hill) - it was filmed in the days when Fast trains to Chesham (and Amersham) ran non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park, in 19 minutes.

The 15 mph restrictions apply only because of the presence of tripcock testers in platforms 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6. The tripcock testers were only installed in the very early 2000s. Your film pre-dates both the tripcock testers and the associated speed restriction.

 

[sprunt]

During my last visit to London the Victoria and Jubilee were running non stop, and honestly even up at the concourse you couldn't move. A PA announcement eventually came on to announce that passengers were to stop repeatedly pressing help points as if it continued they would need to evacuate, in the end we just walked to Piccadilly Circus.

If trains aren't stopping, isn't it going to be necessary to evacuate the station anyway? How else would the overcrowding be solved if not by people getting on trains? I used to commute from Finsbury Park, and occasionally passengers would be temporarily held outside the station sue to overcrowding, but trains still stopped and the overcrowding gradually reduced as people caught trains.

 

[Scotrail314209]

If trains aren't stopping, isn't it going to be necessary to evacuate the station anyway? How else would the overcrowding be solved if not by people getting on trains? I used to commute from Finsbury Park, and occasionally passengers would be temporarily held outside the station sue to overcrowding, but trains still stopped and the overcrowding gradually reduced as people caught trains.

The reason for the non-evacuation was that the Piccadilly line seemed to be stopping at the station, but the Victoria and Jubilee somehow weren't.

 

[rebmcr]

If trains aren't stopping, isn't it going to be necessary to evacuate the station anyway? How else would the overcrowding be solved if not by people getting on trains? I used to commute from Finsbury Park, and occasionally passengers would be temporarily held outside the station sue to overcrowding, but trains still stopped and the overcrowding gradually reduced as people caught trains.

In the morning peak at least, a decent subset of people will generally be using central stations for exit.

 

[Mojo]

If trains aren't stopping, isn't it going to be necessary to evacuate the station anyway? How else would the overcrowding be solved if not by people getting on trains? I used to commute from Finsbury Park, and occasionally passengers would be temporarily held outside the station sue to overcrowding, but trains still stopped and the overcrowding gradually reduced as people caught trains.

It solves overcrowding because it allows customers getting on lines which are still stopping.

 

[philthetube]

at finsbury park their is tho option to run one empty from seven sisters.

 

[Lewlew]

The 15 mph restrictions apply only because of the presence of tripcock testers in platforms 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6. The tripcock testers were only installed in the very early 2000s. Your film pre-dates both the tripcock testers and the associated speed restriction.

On the Bakerloo we have a tripcock tester between Kilburn High Road and Queens Park (Down DC) that we pass over at line speed which is 45mph (or close to it as we're still motoring after doing 20mph over the points from the UP line)

This is a Network Rail asset though which has a slightly different design.

 

[rebmcr]

at finsbury park their is tho option to run one empty from seven sisters.

It's difficult to understand what this means.

 

[bramling]

If trains aren't stopping, isn't it going to be necessary to evacuate the station anyway? How else would the overcrowding be solved if not by people getting on trains?

If you take something like Stockwell, where this is often seen when one or other line is disrupted. Say it's morning peak and there's severe delays on the Victoria Line with some extensive gaps in the northbound service. The station supervisor will have already restricted or even closed the station to incoming passengers, however there remains a problem that the northbound Victoria Line platform will be full, but with Northern Line trains coming and going every couple of minutes the platform will be continuing to fill with nowhere for people to go. The solution is to non-stop on the Northern Line until such time as the Victoria Line platform is cleared.

Holborn is another place where this will be seen - in the evening peak if the Piccadilly Line platforms and/or passageways are filling up, the Central Line will be non-stopped.

Station supervisors will generally know the normal flows of their station and where issues are likely to develop, and will pick the right solution for the situation. It's still possible to get caught out though.

 

[trainmania100]

Parts of the network see regular non stop trains. I think it was on the jubilee line near dollis hill they ran fast.

 

[sprunt]

If you take something like Stockwell, where this is often seen when one or other line is disrupted. Say it's morning peak and there's severe delays on the Victoria Line with some extensive gaps in the northbound service. The station supervisor will have already restricted or even closed the station to incoming passengers, however there remains a problem that the northbound Victoria Line platform will be full, but with Northern Line trains coming and going every couple of minutes the platform will be continuing to fill with nowhere for people to go. The solution is to non-stop on the Northern Line until such time as the Victoria Line platform is cleared.

Good explanation, thanks.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Parts of the network see regular non stop trains. I think it was on the jubilee line near dollis hill they ran fast.

That'll be the Metropolitan Line trains running past fast on the outer tracks.

 

[simple simon]

I remember the incident as being on the Highgate branch and it was around about there that the train broke free and chased a passenger train down the line: luckily a signal controller saw what was going on and took emergency action, informing the driver of the passenger train who in turn informed his obviously frightened passengers and ran through all stations on green, non-stop, through Camden Town and onto the City branch, the engineering train sent via Mornington Crescent which iirc goes slightly uphill at one point before Warren Street? A terrifying incident, which TfL tried to keep under wraps for ages, and thank goodness there were few trains around at that early time.

Thank you - I remembered about the runaway but not all the details.

As I understand it, if the line had been TBTC signalled at the time the 18mph speed limit would have seriously increased the likelihood of the runaway reaching the passenger train.

 

[simple simon]

The 15 mph restrictions apply only because of the presence of tripcock testers in platforms 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6. The tripcock testers were only installed in the very early 2000s. Your film pre-dates both the tripcock testers and the associated speed restriction.

But why were the tripcock testers installed here - rather than somewhere like Finchley Road were trains always stop? Will they be be going when CBTC is installed?

btw, when I filmed that (in 1990) I also saw at least one fast train run through platform 3, it was a Chesham train and used that route so that a DMU heading for Marylebone would not be delayed by having to wait for the Chesham train to cross the southbound track just south of the station.

Also, I can understand why there is no tripcock tester for platform 2 ... woe betide any electric train that tries to head south via this route - as it will make an enforced stop immediately after leaving the station. The power supply rails end here!

 

[Dstock7080]

But why were the tripcock testers installed here - rather than somewhere like Finchley Road were trains always stop?

There are tripcock testers at Finchley Road but Chiltern Railways trains do not operate through the LU station, therefore their first DOWN LU station stop is Harrow.

Chiltern trains will not be operating in CBTC.

 

[philthetube]

at finsbury park their is tho option to run one empty from seven sisters.

It's difficult to understand what this means.

Sorry, need to read what I type

If Finsbury park is crowded there is the option to have a train which should be entering service at Severn Sisters to run empty to Finsbury park and enter service there, providing an empty train to clear the platform

 

[bramling]

But why were the tripcock testers installed here - rather than somewhere like Finchley Road were trains always stop? Will they be be going when CBTC is installed?

btw, when I filmed that (in 1990) I also saw at least one fast train run through platform 3, it was a Chesham train and used that route so that a DMU heading for Marylebone would not be delayed by having to wait for the Chesham train to cross the southbound track just south of the station.

Also, I can understand why there is no tripcock tester for platform 2 ... woe betide any electric train that tries to head south via this route - as it will make an enforced stop immediately after leaving the station. The power supply rails end here!

At some point a decade or longer ago, LU realised there was a problem with the setup for tripcock testing, namely that tripcocks are supposed to be tested once per trip, but in certain circumstances this wasn’t happening - particularly during situations like engineering works where the tripcock tester locations didn’t provide for a once-per-trip test for certain permutations of closure. Hence some new tripcock testers appeared, Harrow being an example. Finchley Central is another example.

No doubt it will still be possible to find examples where it’s possible to make an A to B trip without encountering a tripcock tester. The problem with installing too many is that they’re a total pain in the arse operationally and from a maintenance perspective.

 

[philthetube]

Chesham to Watford,

 

[simple simon]

At some point a decade or longer ago, LU realised there was a problem with the setup for tripcock testing, namely that tripcocks are supposed to be tested once per trip, but in certain circumstances this wasn’t happening - particularly during situations like engineering works where the tripcock tester locations didn’t provide for a once-per-trip test for certain permutations of closure. Hence some new tripcock testers appeared, Harrow being an example. Finchley Central is another example.

No doubt it will still be possible to find examples where it’s possible to make an A to B trip without encountering a tripcock tester. The problem with installing too many is that they’re a total pain in the arse operationally and from a maintenance perspective.

Ah, thanks, now I understand.

I suppose that once automation has been installed throughout the Met line the tripcock testers will not be needed - except for lines used by non-auto trains, such as by Chiltern and Network Rail. Therefore will they be removed from all tracks except the tracks passing platform 1?

 

[bramling]

Ah, thanks, now I understand.

I suppose that once automation has been installed throughout the Met line the tripcock testers will not be needed - except for lines used by non-auto trains, such as by Chiltern and Network Rail. Therefore will they be removed from all tracks except the tracks passing platform 1?

Yes there’s no need for tripcock testers with ATP signalling, although those in place are generally retained during the transition period even if the area they fall within is resignalled.

You’re quite right that arrangements need to be in place at boundary points, and of course for things like Chiltern. Not sure what the plans are, however I’d suspect Harrow and Amersham will be provided in some form.