This does seem a bit of a mess.
If I put Woking to London Euston into the National Rail website, for travel this Saturday (21st October) departing 7am and returning at 9pm, I get some very odd results.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/WOK/EUS/tomorrow/0700/dep/tomorrow/2100/dep
Some trains show a price of £18.40, but others are £23.00. Yet the ticket shown for the trains are both "Off Peak Travelcard".
However if you click on them, it gives different names, with the £18.40 fares being the "Super Off Peak Travelcard" and £23.00 being "Off Peak Travelcard". As an aside should you really have to hover over the tickets to find out their real name like this? Surely the front page should show the different ticket names?
However I don't think I'm crossing any sort of time barrier here.
The 07:02 train, arriving at 08:14 is £18.40. But the 07:12 also arriving at 8:14 is £23.00 and there is another train also departing at 07:12 and arriving 1 minute late, at 08:15 which is £18.40!
I realised the difference seems to be one of routing. The £18.40 trains are routed to Waterloo then via the tube to Euston (Northern line, presumably) whilst the £23.00 trains are those routed with a change at Clapham Junction, another train into London Victoria and the tube (Victoria line, presumably) from there to Euston. As a second aside, I never understand why journey planners suggest you get off a train at Clapham Junction (which is going non-stop to Waterloo) to change onto another going to Victoria when there is a direct tube connection from both Victoria and Waterloo to Euston. I can't believe, once you factor in the additional change, this is really any quicker in practice, and it certainly adds more risk and inconveniance.
So the difference in price puzzled me. Clapham Junction is already "in the zones" so Clapham to Victoria is covered by the travel card, and rail-only tickets to London Terminals are valid to Victoria too.
Checking the restrictions of the "Super Off Peak Travelcard" shows this.
Clicking through the various links on National Rail shows this is the relevant condition for a Super Off Peak Travelcard are weekends.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/UR
The relevant part, the outward restrictions, is I think below.
So according to the first restriction, the ticket shoudl be valid on arriving to a London terminal at 09:30 or before (but not between 09:31 and 11:59). This should mean all the trains in my search are at the lower price.
However I think the second part might be coming into play here. There is an additional restriction that you cannot board a train at Clapham Junction between 04:30 - 11:05. So I assume that by introduction the (unneccessary) change ast Clapham Junction it bumps the price up? But should this really apply to passengers changing there or only to those starting their journey there?
Furthermore I'm confused by the bottom restriction about any station in London Zones 1-6. I am not clear if this applies only to National Rail services or if it includes the tube as well. If it includes the tube, then it means the cheaper "Super Off Peak" ticket is not actually valid for the journey I want to make until midday because of the blackout on the tube until 10:59 and the blackout on all the main London stations to 11:59. So does this bottom restriction apply only to National Rail or is it the tube and busses as well?
If it is both, it seems bizarre to sell a "travelcard" that allows you to travel into London before 9:30 but not use any other trains, tubes or busses until midday! If it doesn't than the restriciton at Vauxhall also seems rather odd. It means I could I think take a train from Woking to Vauxhall arriving before 9:30am but I then could not leave the station by train to Waterloo until 11:05 - but I could immediately transfer onto the Victoria Line to Victoria instead!
It gets further confused in that some journey planners seem to apply different rules. From what I can tell, Virgin Trains (West Coast) and Cross Country apply the same rules as National Rail (shows a mixture of cheaper and more costly trains), whilst SWR and GWR only show the "Off Peak Travelcard" as being valid on all these trains. Which leads me onto the next question. Which website is right, and which wrong? Because there really shouldnt be differences like this.
I suspect SWR and GWR are in fact overcharging by not offering the cheaper ticket at least on those trains where the routing is direct to Waterloo. What a mess! Grateful for any comments!
Was hoping to ask at the station, but the ticket office was closed (when it was due to be open) and the ticket barriers open, so the only option was the machine which, too my surprise, now just directes you to the URL of National Rail to check the restrictions there (what if you don't have a smart phone, or no signal - surely you should not have to have a connected smart phone to work out what ticket you should buy).
At the moment I have bought the cheaper ticket because it seems certain to me that it is valid into Waterloo before 09:30 (when I will be travelling) and if it is not valid on the tube, I can use contactless to get to Euston and the travel card on the way back (which is still cheaper than the "off peak travelvard")
If I put Woking to London Euston into the National Rail website, for travel this Saturday (21st October) departing 7am and returning at 9pm, I get some very odd results.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/WOK/EUS/tomorrow/0700/dep/tomorrow/2100/dep
Some trains show a price of £18.40, but others are £23.00. Yet the ticket shown for the trains are both "Off Peak Travelcard".
However if you click on them, it gives different names, with the £18.40 fares being the "Super Off Peak Travelcard" and £23.00 being "Off Peak Travelcard". As an aside should you really have to hover over the tickets to find out their real name like this? Surely the front page should show the different ticket names?
However I don't think I'm crossing any sort of time barrier here.
The 07:02 train, arriving at 08:14 is £18.40. But the 07:12 also arriving at 8:14 is £23.00 and there is another train also departing at 07:12 and arriving 1 minute late, at 08:15 which is £18.40!
I realised the difference seems to be one of routing. The £18.40 trains are routed to Waterloo then via the tube to Euston (Northern line, presumably) whilst the £23.00 trains are those routed with a change at Clapham Junction, another train into London Victoria and the tube (Victoria line, presumably) from there to Euston. As a second aside, I never understand why journey planners suggest you get off a train at Clapham Junction (which is going non-stop to Waterloo) to change onto another going to Victoria when there is a direct tube connection from both Victoria and Waterloo to Euston. I can't believe, once you factor in the additional change, this is really any quicker in practice, and it certainly adds more risk and inconveniance.
So the difference in price puzzled me. Clapham Junction is already "in the zones" so Clapham to Victoria is covered by the travel card, and rail-only tickets to London Terminals are valid to Victoria too.
Checking the restrictions of the "Super Off Peak Travelcard" shows this.
Clicking through the various links on National Rail shows this is the relevant condition for a Super Off Peak Travelcard are weekends.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/UR
The relevant part, the outward restrictions, is I think below.
So according to the first restriction, the ticket shoudl be valid on arriving to a London terminal at 09:30 or before (but not between 09:31 and 11:59). This should mean all the trains in my search are at the lower price.
However I think the second part might be coming into play here. There is an additional restriction that you cannot board a train at Clapham Junction between 04:30 - 11:05. So I assume that by introduction the (unneccessary) change ast Clapham Junction it bumps the price up? But should this really apply to passengers changing there or only to those starting their journey there?
Furthermore I'm confused by the bottom restriction about any station in London Zones 1-6. I am not clear if this applies only to National Rail services or if it includes the tube as well. If it includes the tube, then it means the cheaper "Super Off Peak" ticket is not actually valid for the journey I want to make until midday because of the blackout on the tube until 10:59 and the blackout on all the main London stations to 11:59. So does this bottom restriction apply only to National Rail or is it the tube and busses as well?
If it is both, it seems bizarre to sell a "travelcard" that allows you to travel into London before 9:30 but not use any other trains, tubes or busses until midday! If it doesn't than the restriciton at Vauxhall also seems rather odd. It means I could I think take a train from Woking to Vauxhall arriving before 9:30am but I then could not leave the station by train to Waterloo until 11:05 - but I could immediately transfer onto the Victoria Line to Victoria instead!
It gets further confused in that some journey planners seem to apply different rules. From what I can tell, Virgin Trains (West Coast) and Cross Country apply the same rules as National Rail (shows a mixture of cheaper and more costly trains), whilst SWR and GWR only show the "Off Peak Travelcard" as being valid on all these trains. Which leads me onto the next question. Which website is right, and which wrong? Because there really shouldnt be differences like this.
I suspect SWR and GWR are in fact overcharging by not offering the cheaper ticket at least on those trains where the routing is direct to Waterloo. What a mess! Grateful for any comments!
Was hoping to ask at the station, but the ticket office was closed (when it was due to be open) and the ticket barriers open, so the only option was the machine which, too my surprise, now just directes you to the URL of National Rail to check the restrictions there (what if you don't have a smart phone, or no signal - surely you should not have to have a connected smart phone to work out what ticket you should buy).
At the moment I have bought the cheaper ticket because it seems certain to me that it is valid into Waterloo before 09:30 (when I will be travelling) and if it is not valid on the tube, I can use contactless to get to Euston and the travel card on the way back (which is still cheaper than the "off peak travelvard")
