Unelectrified transfer lines in London (Private Eye)

[MarkyT]

Not used either!

The unelectrified connection between MML & CTRL is also non-track circuited, and is known as the 'maintenance siding' There was never any interlocking commissioned between the MML and CTRL networks but the MML end can be used as a conventional dead end siding for engineering vehicles and has a local shunters acceptance plunger to authorise an incoming movement from the north. The turnout and trap at the CTRL end is kept clipped and padlocked to prevent any movements between the siding and the International platforms, although could be unlocked under possession if required to allow passage of a special working, say a track machine transfer. I don't know if that's ever happened.

 

[Domh245]

So not impossible I assume but horrendously expensive as in circa 4 million pounds per mile well exceeding even Manchester-Preston costs per mile?

GOBLIN was very expensive in terms of £/km, but it was immensely complicated, not just electrically but in terms of structures too. Based on the numbers in this thread (which also has some chat about the difficulties) it seems like it came out at between £7m and £10m/stkm

How is it fully signalled? MML uses AWS/TPWS, St Pancras International (HS1) uses LZB.

It doesn't have to be consistently signalled to be fully signalled, surely? East Croydon to West Hampstead Thameslink will still be fully signalled once the Thameslink core fully goes over to ETCS and the signals are removed, for example

 

[Railcar]

The paragraph that I quoted at the beginning of this thread was only the PS of a much longer article about the benefits of electrification and the delays caused by government. Worth reading.

 

[DarloRich]

Makes me think of Wolmar...

I suspect it is several people as the style of writing differs from time to time. I often wondered if some of them are written by Roger Ford.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

GOBLIN was very expensive in terms of £/km, but it was immensely complicated, not just electrically but in terms of structures too. Based on the numbers in this thread (which also has some chat about the difficulties) it seems like it came out at between £7m and £10m/stkm

Good lord that is eye wateringly expensive

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll throw this put there, but prior to the lockdown many cities were struggling with air quality, with diesels being particularly "guilty". Expansion of low emission zones, banning wood burning stoves, bigger pushes for electric vehicles yet rail could be perceived as not doing its bit. We all know the press can't (or won't) do nuances and that if "diesel gaps" are seen to be bringing diesel traction into the metropolis they won't care about what happens further out.

It’s a fair point. TfL have for some time been concerned about the terrible air quality along the Westway corridor, but discovered it suddenly got better in 2018...

So not impossible I assume but horrendously expensive as in circa 4 million pounds per mile well exceeding even Manchester-Preston costs per mile?

And the rest!

The *cheapest* recent electrification (Shotts) was nearly £4m per single track mile. Carlton Road to Junction Road will easily be 5 times that. AIUI There’s some big civil engineering to do.

 

[route:oxford]

It’s a fair point. TfL have for some time been concerned about the terrible air quality along the Westway corridor, but discovered it suddenly got better in 2018...

I had to look at a map, so essentially the A40 adjacent to Paddington Station had a dramatic improvement in air quality when 40/25 year old diesel trains (although the HST engines were younger than the locos they were in?) were displaced by electric trains?

Is that widely published or has it been kept generally under the radar?

 

[Bald Rick]

I had to look at a map, so essentially the A40 adjacent to Paddington Station had a dramatic improvement in air quality when 40/25 year old diesel trains (although the HST engines were younger than the locos they were in?) were displaced by electric trains?

Is that widely published or has it been kept generally under the radar?

It’s published somewhere, but don’t know where.

 

[ic31420]

No, but you don’t really want a neutral section a short, inclined track with signals neArby.

What is the speed limit on that bit of track?

I'm wondering if was something holding back electric use would the 88s be any use. If they would, and they haven't been use then that speaks for itself.

So not impossible I assume but horrendously expensive as in circa 4 million pounds per mile well exceeding even Manchester-Preston costs per mile?

How much did that come out at in the end?
Does that figure include all the compo/ extra costs involved with providing diversions and buses etc or is it simply the cost of providing the infrastructure.

 

[Class 170101]

Is it just me , or does Dr B Ching make you think of Beeching

That is the point, it isn't his real name!

Used to contribute on various forums like this one.

I think the aim with Marylebone has to be, must be, to electrify it before the Class 16x fleet become life expired

Either that or it will be reliant on DMUs like Class 195s / Class 196s now entering service in the NW and West Midlands being cascaded south .

 

[Joseph_Locke]

It is somewhat absurd given that freight operations apparently proceed perfectly adequately with a fraction of that installed power across the southern region.

A class 66 only has ~2.2MW at rail after all.

But something (92) capable of pulling a decent load at speed is 4MW - 6kA, and it would draw that for long enough to touble the subs, I fear

 

[dlj83]

The connection between the East London Line and the North London Line isn't electrified

 

[swt_passenger]

The connection between the East London Line and the North London Line isn't electrified

But pretty much irrelevant to freight, given that the core ELL is not part of the national network...

 

[HSTEd]

But something (92) capable of pulling a decent load at speed is 4MW - 6kA, and it would draw that for long enough to touble the subs, I fear

Given that Class 92s have fully electronic traction converters, couldn't current limiting be installed on the locomotives to limit their third rail power to that similar to the Class 66?

 

[southern442]

I suspect it is several people as the style of writing differs from time to time. I often wondered if some of them are written by Roger Ford.

One of my university professors actually wrote a few private eye articles under the name quite a few years back.

 

[jopsuk]

The connection between the East London Line and the North London Line isn't electrified

That's not a section used by freight (the only non-passenger services on the ELL would be ECS and engineering. But I though it was, for stock transfer?

 

[Ianno87]

The connection between the East London Line and the North London Line isn't electrified

That's not a section used by freight (the only non-passenger services on the ELL would be ECS and engineering. But I though it was, for stock transfer?

Stock transfer / maintenannce access. But signalling never commissioned (there's still a wooden sleeper tied across it)

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that Class 92s have fully electronic traction converters, couldn't current limiting be installed on the locomotives to limit their third rail power to that similar to the Class 66?

I’m reasonably sure they do have current limitations when on third rail. Like the Eurostar’s did, (and Class 700s do)

 

[coppercapped]

SNIP

So we could see pressure for infill electrification or other novel solutions. Wasn't it the Pea Soupers of the early 1950s that saw a mad rush to eliminate steam on former Great Eastern metals after the Clean Air Acts were passed?

SNIP

While not totally disagreeing with the general tenor of your argument I would point out that correlation is not causation in the example you quoted.

The Liverpool Street to Shenfield electrification was planned by the LNER before the Second World War broke out, nearly 20 years before the 1956 Clean Air Act was passed. It was completed to Shenfield in 1949 and once this had been shown to work it was extended to Southend and Chelmsford by 1956.

Further extensions had nothing whatever to do with the Clean Air Act, but all to do with the 1955 Modernisation Plan, which also predated the Clean Air Act. The rush to eliminate steam traction on all of British Railways, not just the Great Eastern, had little or nothing to do with the Clean Air Act which was anyway not applicable to the railways but only to domestic heating and industrial chimneys, but all to do with BR's collapsing financial position.

Hoping that pressure for infill electrification will result from the current coronavirus or real or perceived air pollution issues is whistling in the wind.

Edit: Added completion dates and corrected typo.

 

[Maurice3000]

How is it fully signalled? MML uses AWS/TPWS, St Pancras International (HS1) uses LZB.
I know that one of the FOCs had a safety case for transfers between ST Pancras International (HS) and the ECML using (I think?) class 66 locos but I dont think anybody has a safetycase for the MML link so I presume it could only be used under possession?

Sorry to be pedantic but I assume you mean KVB and not LZB, right? Though I assume it will be replaced with ETCS too when the rest of HS1 gets ETCS.

 

[paul1609]

It doesn't have to be consistently signalled to be fully signalled, surely? East Croydon to West Hampstead Thameslink will still be fully signalled once the Thameslink core fully goes over to ETCS and the signals are removed, for example

Sorry to be pedantic but I assume you mean KVB and not LZB, right? Though I assume it will be replaced with ETCS too when the rest of HS1 gets ETCS.

Yes you are right its KVB. However as it was only installed at Ashford international a year ago, I presume that replacement with ETCS is some years off.

 

[Taunton]

As freight operators don't like to do electric locos, you can string up all the wire you like but they won't necessarily use it.

 

[Nean]

As freight operators don't like to do electric locos, you can string up all the wire you like but they won't necessarily use it.

Indeed, unless significant pressure comes down from the powers that be to only use Diesel for "last mile", for example through tweaking access charges to make it substantially more economically advantageous to use electric over diesel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed, unless significant pressure comes down from the powers that be to only use Diesel for "last mile", for example through tweaking access charges to make it substantially more economically advantageous to use electric over diesel.

Exactly. Where there is a political and economic will there is a way.

 

[Scottychoo]

Is it just me , or does Dr B Ching make you think of Beeching

You are joking right??

 

[52290]

It is Private Eye and it is satire. Like lunchtime O’boulais in the 80s

It was Lunchtime O' Booze. Lunchtime O' Boulez is still their classical music correspondent. Personally I miss their Neasden based football correspondents, E.I.Addio and Dud Fivers.

 

[Mikey C]

There's a massive emissions difference anyway between removing regular DMUs and HSTs from London tracks and terminii, and the benefit from eliminating the small number of diesel freight operations

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There's a massive emissions difference anyway between removing regular DMUs and HSTs from London tracks and terminii, and the benefit from eliminating the small number of diesel freight operations

Agreed which is why I am looking forward to the publication of the DfT decarbonisation strategy document.

 

[Helvellyn]

While not totally disagreeing with the general tenor of your argument I would point out that correlation is not causation in the example you quoted.

The Liverpool Street to Shenfield electrification was planned by the LNER before the Second World War broke out, nearly 20 years before the 1956 Clean Air Act was passed. It was completed to Shenfield in 1949 and once this had been shown to work it was extended to Southend and Chelmsford by 1956.

Further extensions had nothing whatever to do with the Clean Air Act, but all to do with the 1955 Modernisation Plan, which also predated the Clean Air Act. The rush to eliminate steam traction on all of British Railways, not just the Great Eastern, had little or nothing to do with the Clean Air Act which was anyway not applicable to the railways but only to domestic heating and industrial chimneys, but all to do with BR's collapsing financial position.

Hoping that pressure for infill electrification will result from the current coronavirus or real or perceived air pollution issues is whistling in the wind.

Edit: Added completion dates and corrected typo.

I should have been clearer, I wasn't referring to electrification but rather an understanding I had from something I had read that the Clean Air Acts saw BR look to eliminate as much steam as possible in East London using locos already ordered under the Modernisation Plan, with late 1962 ringing a bell for when steam was eliminated on former Great Eastern metals. With a still substantial freight network centred on the docks I'd understood that eliminating steam was desirable from an air quality point of view as much as for the cost savings.

 

[Bald Rick]

As freight operators don't like to do electric locos, you can string up all the wire you like but they won't necessarily use it.

But they are very keen to switch to electric, and would do electric locos, if routes are electrified in full. The fuel savings are certainly worthwhile.