Unelectrified transfer lines in London (Private Eye)

[GRALISTAIR]

But they are very keen to switch to electric, and would do electric locos, if routes are electrified in full. The fuel savings are certainly worthwhile.

Indeed. It is multiple loco changes that add cost even though that is what BR did in the 1970s

 

[AlbertBeale]

Makes me think of Wolmar...

I think it's safe to say that the Eye's "Dr B Ching" isn't Christian Wolmar.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think it's safe to say that the Eye's "Dr B Ching" isn't Christian Wolmar.

Pretty certain it ain’t Roger Ford either.

 

[Taunton]

But they are very keen to switch to electric, and would do electric locos, if routes are electrified in full. The fuel savings are certainly worthwhile.

Fuel is just a fraction of cost, and any advantage would just be lost if there was the need for an additional loco change at some point, greater capital investment, more crews.

Thing about freight is it is far more ephemeral than passenger. Trains are here one year, gone the next, run to different places, get picked off by a different operator, is diverted due to engineering, etc. You can readily see that each current operator is now doing things quite different to say 5 years ago. And you can't do a replacement bus for freight.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fuel is just a fraction of cost, and any advantage would just be lost if there was the need for an additional loco change at some point, greater capital investment, more crews.

Thing about freight is it is far more ephemeral than passenger. Trains are here one year, gone the next, run to different places, get picked off by a different operator, is diverted due to engineering, etc. You can readily see that each current operator is now doing things quite different to say 5 years ago. And you can't do a replacement bus for freight.

Freight operators run on tiny margins, and fuel (+ diesel loco maintenance) is enough of the cost to make a difference. They will switch to electric, willingly, if (as I said) they can run electric end to end.

 

[coppercapped]

I should have been clearer, I wasn't referring to electrification but rather an understanding I had from something I had read that the Clean Air Acts saw BR look to eliminate as much steam as possible in East London using locos already ordered under the Modernisation Plan, with late 1962 ringing a bell for when steam was eliminated on former Great Eastern metals. With a still substantial freight network centred on the docks I'd understood that eliminating steam was desirable from an air quality point of view as much as for the cost savings.

Ah! Now I see what you mean. BR made a big song and dance about its first custom built diesel maintenance depot at Devons Road (Bow) which supplied locos for some of that traffic. It was opened in the middle 1950s (1957?) so may well have been nudged on by the Clean Air furore.
IIRC Devons Road belonged to the LMR but nearby Stratford was Eastern and still had a large steam allocation so possibly it was also due to inter-regional rivalry?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Freight operators run on tiny margins, and fuel (+ diesel loco maintenance) is enough of the cost to make a difference. They will switch to electric, willingly, if (as I said) they can run electric end to end.

Do you think the Julian Worth summary of freight routes to be electrified is a really great starting point and the most logical?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you think the Julian Worth summary of freight routes to be electrified is a really great starting point and the most logical?

I forget the detail, but from memory it was too long, although certainly a sound starting place to pick a few candidates.

Felixstowe and Gateway branches would be the best to start with, plus the missing links around Acton.

 

[HSTEd]

I forget the detail, but from memory it was too long, although certainly a sound starting place to pick a few candidates.

Felixstowe and Gateway branches would be the best to start with, plus the missing links around Acton.

How do you operate a container yard with overhead wiring though?
Do you use a reach wagon or movable overhead contact bars to avoid the wires getting in the way?

 

[uvarvu]

That’s what that battery powered 08 is for.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Julian Worth suggested that London Gateway to LTS (London Tilbury and Southend) was 1.5 miles and could potentially remove 16 trains a day from diesel to electric traction.

 

[Mag_seven]

How do you operate a container yard with overhead wiring though?
Do you use a reach wagon or movable overhead contact bars to avoid the wires getting in the way?

In the UK, all the container yards I have seen have wires that just go up to the yard entrance(s), with a diesel shunters doing the work in the non electrified bit.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That’s what that battery powered 08 is for.

That ideally would have a pantograph to recharge the batteries or is that way over the top? Do from onshore supply?

 

[Domh245]

How do you operate a container yard with overhead wiring though?
Do you use a reach wagon or movable overhead contact bars to avoid the wires getting in the way?

Exactly the same way that existing electrified yards work (Trafford park, Daventry, Mossend) - some form of self-propelling shunter in the bit with flying containers and then the electric loco picks it up from an electrified section?

 

[uvarvu]

Hybrid shunter conversion ready for testing

TRACTION: A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK's Department for Transport.

www.railwaygazette.com

”A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK’s Department for Transport”

Hopefully they‘ll find a way to charge it via shore supply instead of having to use the generators to do the job.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I forget the detail, but from memory it was too long, although certainly a sound starting place to pick a few candidates.

Felixstowe and Gateway branches would be the best to start with, plus the missing links around Acton.

I have taken his ideas and put them in a spreadsheet. Don't want to get too off-topic because of course not all is infill as per thread title.

 

[HSTEd]

Exactly the same way that existing electrified yards work (Trafford park, Daventry, Mossend) - some form of self-propelling shunter in the bit with flying containers and then the electric loco picks it up from an electrified section?

In that case, why do we need to electrify the Thames Gateway branch?
Can't the shunter just run the train down onto the main line, detach and let it go on it's way?

EDIT:

Street view indicates no OLE overrun onto the branch, but given the relatively sparse service on the branch, the time necessary to detach the shunter seems potentially acceptable.

 

[Bald Rick]

In that case, why do we need to electrify the Thames Gateway branch?
Can't the shunter just run the train down onto the main line, detach and let it go on it's way?

EDIT:

Street view indicates no OLE overrun onto the branch, but given the relatively sparse service on the branch, the time necessary to detach the shunter seems potentially acceptable.

It would be much cheaper to extend the OLE than to amend the signalling and Level crossing controls to enable all that to happen. As OLE jobs go, it will be one of the cheapest - low spec, no clearance problems to worry about, no signalling alterations req’d, no power supply required. The issue is that much of it is not the National Network...

 

[Bald Rick]

I have taken his ideas and put them in a spreadsheet. Don't want to get too off-topic because of course not all is infill as per thread title.

Interesting list. Next on my list would be Nuneaton to Lawley Street, and after that I’m struggling.

The MML to Mountsorrel is interesting / odd: it would only actually ‘electrify’ a couple of trains a day, ie those to Luton / Elstow / Radlett. Everything else would need a loco change. I’d say this is a non starter for freight, although obviously electrifying the MML North beyond Market Harborough is desirable for other reasons.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

He made a reply to the transport select committee and they have his suggestions. Obviously the real biggie is not infill and that of course is F2N.

 

[Taunton]

Ah! Now I see what you mean. BR made a big song and dance about its first custom built diesel maintenance depot at Devons Road (Bow) which supplied locos for some of that traffic. It was opened in the middle 1950s (1957?) so may well have been nudged on by the Clean Air furore.

You are correct, the smogs earlier in the 1950s had identified coal fires and coal locomotives as the two key sources, and the East End was the worst smog and also had the greatest loco concentration. Therefore government direction attacked all this together.

Although the GE main local service was now electric, it was to be extended to all the other Liverpool Street suburban services, the Fenchurch Street lines, dmus for what was not electrified, and diesels for freight both line haul and shunting. Although this is much of what was done overall later anyway, East London treated as priority. Some of the first small shunters were allocated to Stratford and Devons Road, and the first pilot scheme diesels, unfortunately many too small/underpowered, to freight. Even the Port of London Authority was sat on to dieselise the internal docks fleet. The problems with the first electric services did delay implementation quite a bit. Note the first Modernisation Plan Type 4 diesel main line service was with D200 from Liverpool Street to Norwich.

 

[route:oxford]

Hybrid shunter conversion ready for testing

TRACTION: A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK's Department for Transport.

www.railwaygazette.com

”A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK’s Department for Transport”

Hopefully they‘ll find a way to charge it via shore supply instead of having to use the generators to do the job.

Wow, Is there already a discussion about this? Just done a quick forum and Google search and didn't spot anything obvious.

 

[OxtedL]

In terms of what's been added to the electrified network since 2010, there's not really been much that is useful for freight yet.

The biggest one is Gospel Oak - Barking, which has made future electric to Thames Gateway (+Purfleet/Dagenham/Tilbury) more practical, as already discussed.

In Scotland, Cumbernauld line electrification gave access to Grangemouth, and wires have gone up there accordingly. Although I suspect it wasn't that inconvenient just to switch over at Mossend before.

In the north west, you could potentially switch some Liverpool (Seaforth) to Scotland containers if you could find somewhere sensible on the docks branch to switch over traction. But that's not many a week.

GWML needs wires all the way to Bristol/Avonmouth/Wentloog before anything noticeable can be switched. We've only got the last of these 3 so far, and only recently. Even that looks like it's more usually pathed via Chippenham. But it does mean the link at Acton is finally worth a discussion.

MML needs wires extending to Nuneaton and/or Toton before it starts to be useful. But even at that point you're almost just providing an alternative to the already electrified WCML.

 

[alangla]

Exactly the same way that existing electrified yards work (Trafford park, Daventry, Mossend) - some form of self-propelling shunter in the bit with flying containers and then the electric loco picks it up from an electrified section?

Does Coatbridge have a shunter? I thought pretty much everything there was electric locos

 

[clagmonster]

It would be much cheaper to extend the OLE than to amend the signalling and Level crossing controls to enable all that to happen. As OLE jobs go, it will be one of the cheapest - low spec, no clearance problems to worry about, no signalling alterations req’d, no power supply required. The issue is that much of it is not the National Network...

Whilst I appreciate it is easier said than done, could the electrification remain the property of Network Rail, with a charge for electric usage down the branch but obviously no track access charges beyond the boundary?

Is F2N Felixstowe to Nuneaton or similar?

A couple of the lines on that list will also have use for passenger services, which will also boost their case. Ultimately, I would hope that all of that list will be wired, although clearly that is a long term ambition.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is F2N Felixstowe to Nuneaton or similar?

Correct. F2N is the acronym for Felixtowe to Nuneaton. I cant find a reference right now but many in the freight industry at the time said electrifying that was more important than the Electric Spine.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst I appreciate it is easier said than done, could the electrification remain the property of Network Rail, with a charge for electric usage down the branch but obviously no track access charges beyond the boundary?

Is F2N Felixstowe to Nuneaton or similar?

A couple of the lines on that list will also have use for passenger services, which will also boost their case. Ultimately, I would hope that all of that list will be wired, although clearly that is a long term ambition.

“There is always a way, Sir”

 

[Deepgreen]

It is Private Eye and it is satire. Like lunchtime O’boulais in the 80s

'Lunchtime O'Booze'.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well I for one really hope that Dr B Ching and the other press really do start beating the drum about this. Marylebone/Chiltern is to me higher priority than small gaps initially anyway.

I think the issue was raised (without the necessary accurate technical knowledge) by Dr. B.C. as it is frustrating on the face of it, to have tiny gaps in electrification meaning diesel use throughout. The layman may be forgiven for thinking it's a silly situation.

 

[si404]

Correct. F2N is the acronym for Felixtowe to Nuneaton. I cant find a reference right now but many in the freight industry at the time said electrifying that was more important than the Electric Spine.

If they coupled it to a couple of other routes and called it "electric span" maybe it could have been drawn on official maps with a highlighter before fading into nothing like the spine did.