Unfairly issued penalty fare?

[Lexidreamer]

First Post and just lookin for some impartial advice.
Myself, my partner and my daughter travelled today from Bryn to Liverpool.
We don't have to pay for my daughter who is 2 and we get a duo ticket for ourselves.
Bryn Station only has a ticket machine which does not offer the option of a duo ticket, as far as I am aware you can't buy a duo ticket online either.
So, as we have done previously, we boarded the train. No conductor came so when we got to Liverpool we went to the ticket office to ask to buy a duo ticket.
I was then asked why I hadn't bought one before boarding, I explained above.
The man then said i have to give you a penalty notice. I asked how I was expected to buy a ticket before boarding that wasn't available at the machiene. To which he said it is what it is you'll have to take it to appeal.
I was quite upset and shocked, we have previously done this journey and never had issues either purchasing on the train or at the station. As we can't purchase this ticket before this.
I approached the officers to buy a ticket. No attempt to exit the barriers/ station.
So I'm now having to appeal these tickets we didn't have the opportunity to purchase.

Am I overlooking some action I should have taken? The other officer said I should have got an IOU but if that ticket isn't available on the machiene how would I get an IOU for it?

Many thanks for your advice, it was our first outing since lockdown, and to be honest I just wanted to go straight home I was quite embarrassed by the whole situation.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

First Post and just lookin for some impartial advice.
Myself, my partner and my daughter travelled today from Bryn to Liverpool.
We don't have to pay for my daughter who is 2 and we get a duo ticket for ourselves.
Bryn Station only has a ticket machine which does not offer the option of a duo ticket, as far as I am aware you can't buy a duo ticket online either.
So, as we have done previously, we boarded the train. No conductor came so when we got to Liverpool we went to the ticket office to ask to buy a duo ticket.
I was then asked why I hadn't bought one before boarding, I explained above.
The man then said i have to give you a penalty notice. I asked how I was expected to buy a ticket before boarding that wasn't available at the machiene. To which he said it is what it is you'll have to take it to appeal.
I was quite upset and shocked, we have previously done this journey and never had issues either purchasing on the train or at the station. As we can't purchase this ticket before this.
I approached the officers to buy a ticket. No attempt to exit the barriers/ station.
So I'm now having to appeal these tickets we didn't have the opportunity to purchase.

Am I overlooking some action I should have taken? The other officer said I should have got an IOU but if that ticket isn't available on the machiene how would I get an IOU for it?

Many thanks for your advice, it was our first outing since lockdown, and to be honest I just wanted to go straight home I was quite embarrassed by the whole situation.

It's a bit of a difficult one. It is quite understandable why you are aggrieved at being issued with a Penalty Fare for paying your fare at the first available opportunity. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple for determining whether or not a Penalty Fare is lawfully issued.

It comes down to whether any exemption from being charged a Penalty Fare from Regulation 6 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 can be said to apply to your situation.

It's Regulation 6(2)(a) that would provide the most obvious exemption and ground of appeal. It exempts you from a Penalty Fare if:

at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey

Now you might think that this is a clear-cut thing - you couldn't buy your Duo so 6(2)(a) is satisfied. Unfortunately it's a bit more nuanced than that. "Travel ticket" is defined in Regulation 3(1) as:

a ticket or other authority which authorises a person to make a journey on a railway passenger service to which these Regulations apply

Northern may try and argue that, because the ticket machine has the capability to issue a Promise to Pay Notice, which authorises you to board the train and pay your fare at the first opportunity, the PtPN is a travel ticket for the above purposes.

Any such argument would be liable to be countered by the fact that Regulation 6(2)(a) refers to the "sale" of a travel ticket - and as PtPNs are free of charge, you can hardly claim that it is "available for sale" at the ticket machine (unlike with a chargeable Permit to Travel as is more done with most other Penalty Fares schemes).

So this is a bit of a grey area, in that whilst you couldn't obtain the ticket you were after, a PtPN was available which would have authorised you to make the jourey, albeit it would not have cost you anything so it's dubious whether it was something for "sale".

Unfortunately the Penalty Fares appeals bodies are not very competent, as they frequent reject even unquestionably valid appeals. But it is certainly worth a shot making the appeal on the above basis; you may be in luck.

Probably a stronger basis for appeal would be on the basis of a breach of Regulation 6(2)(b):

the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied

Regulation 8(1) requires that, at every platform entrance at a station like Bryn which is not a compulsory ticket area:

a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed

Paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 requires a standard notice to contain:

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;
(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;
(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
(d)the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;
(e)wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and
(f)the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

When Penalty Fares started being across most of Northern's network, the requirements for the wording on notices (subparagraphs c and d above) were different. Northern failed to change the wording on posters when the Regulations were updated in 2018. As a result, their posters still contain the old wording, which does not contain the specified wording that Paragraph 1 above requires.

This might seem like nit-picking, but the requirement to use specified wording is there for a reason. The Regulations give train companies to effectively reverse the burden of proof to charge passengers a penalty. To be allowed to do so they must follow the rules not only in spirit but to the letter. If they don't, they can't charge Penalty Fares.

So you may wish to raise the above non-compliant signage issue out in any appeal you make. Again, it isn't certain that the appeals body will accept it, but that is not fundamentally an issue. There are further avenues of appeal even if your first-stage appeal is denied, and making an appeal gives you highly valuable protection - inasmuch as you cannot be prosecuted over the matter if you make a (first-stage) appeal, and a decision is made about that appeal (or the 21 days allowed for the decision to be made have passed).

Hope that helps.

 

[30907]

How long is it since you last used a Duo/the ticket machine at Bryn? (I am surprised they are not available on Northern machines - but I am unable to check)

Duo tickets are now available online but there is no obligation to buy online.

A Promise to Pay ticket is for when you need to pay cash (unless the wording on the machine has changed?) so strictly does not apply in this case - however, it would have been sensible to get one.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How long is it since you last used a Duo/the ticket machine at Bryn? (I am surprised they are not available on Northern machines - but I am unable to check)

Duo tickets are now available online but there is no obligation to buy online.

A Promise to Pay ticket is for when you need to pay cash (unless the wording on the machine has changed?) so strictly does not apply in this case - however, it would have been sensible to get one.

This is a good point - if OP intended to pay by card then they would have been unable to obtain a PtPN other than by lying about intending to use cash. Of course, I would imagine Northern would overlook such issues when pushing any argument that a PtPN is a travel ticket capable of being sold!

 

[P Binnersley]

According to the Penalty Fare Rules:

Display of Notices
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.

(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

(3) If the station has one or more compulsory ticket areas, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 2 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a compulsory ticket area notice”) must be displayed at each entrance into a compulsory ticket area.

(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

Looking at Google Street View you would need eyes in your knees to see the penalty fare notice at the entrance. If there are no other notices on the platform I think you could have a good case that the signage is inadequate.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's a bit of a difficult one. It is quite understandable why you are aggrieved at being issued with a Penalty Fare for paying your fare at the first available opportunity. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple for determining whether or not a Penalty Fare is lawfully issued.

It comes down to whether any exemption from being charged a Penalty Fare from Regulation 6 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 can be said to apply to your situation.

It's Regulation 6(2)(a) that would provide the most obvious exemption and ground of appeal. It exempts you from a Penalty Fare if:


Now you might think that this is a clear-cut thing - you couldn't buy your Duo so 6(2)(a) is satisfied. Unfortunately it's a bit more nuanced than that. "Travel ticket" is defined in Regulation 3(1) as:


Northern may try and argue that, because the ticket machine has the capability to issue a Promise to Pay Notice, which authorises you to board the train and pay your fare at the first opportunity, the PtPN is a travel ticket for the above purposes.

Any such argument would be liable to be countered by the fact that Regulation 6(2)(a) refers to the "sale" of a travel ticket - and as PtPNs are free of charge, you can hardly claim that it is "available for sale" at the ticket machine (unlike with a chargeable Permit to Travel as is more done with most other Penalty Fares schemes).

So this is a bit of a grey area, in that whilst you couldn't obtain the ticket you were after, a PtPN was available which would have authorised you to make the jourey, albeit it would not have cost you anything so it's dubious whether it was something for "sale".

Unfortunately the Penalty Fares appeals bodies are not very competent, as they frequent reject even unquestionably valid appeals. But it is certainly worth a shot making the appeal on the above basis; you may be in luck.

Probably a stronger basis for appeal would be on the basis of a breach of Regulation 6(2)(b):


Regulation 8(1) requires that, at every platform entrance at a station like Bryn which is not a compulsory ticket area:


Paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 requires a standard notice to contain:


When Penalty Fares started being across most of Northern's network, the requirements for the wording on notices (subparagraphs c and d above) were different. Northern failed to change the wording on posters when the Regulations were updated in 2018. As a result, their posters still contain the old wording, which does not contain the specified wording that Paragraph 1 above requires.

This might seem like nit-picking, but the requirement to use specified wording is there for a reason. The Regulations give train companies to effectively reverse the burden of proof to charge passengers a penalty. To be allowed to do so they must follow the rules not only in spirit but to the letter. If they don't, they can't charge Penalty Fares.

So you may wish to raise the above non-compliant signage issue out in any appeal you make. Again, it isn't certain that the appeals body will accept it, but that is not fundamentally an issue. There are further avenues of appeal even if your first-stage appeal is denied, and making an appeal gives you highly valuable protection - inasmuch as you cannot be prosecuted over the matter if you make a (first-stage) appeal, and a decision is made about that appeal (or the 21 days allowed for the decision to be made have passed).

Hope that helps.

Isn't the issue not so much about the signage but that Lexidreamer (OP) could not get the ticket required from the TVM at point of departure so took the 1st opp to honestly buy one, but ends up getting penalised for such actions. Surely focus of their appeal needs to be around this test of 'reasonableness' related to the inability to buy the Duo ticket at Brynn?

Help with wording the Appeal for that might be best advice that can be given?

As an aside I have to say that whenever I have encountered a Northern TVM I have found them a total nightmare to use. I doubt any irregular passenger or an older person not familiar with computerised purchases of items would find them usable. I am neither of those things and do not find them usable! And that is when they even recognise my fingers touching them...

BTW - how come the original post has been 99% deleted?

 

[Darandio]

BTW - how come the original post has been 99% deleted?

After originally posting it was deleted just before the first reply (@ForTheLoveOf already had it quoted!) and has now been reinstated again, but not by the OP it seems. That suggest they aren't interested in engaging further.

 

[WesternLancer]

After originally posting it was deleted just before the first reply (@ForTheLoveOf already had it quoted!) and has now been reinstated again, but not by the OP it seems. That suggest they aren't interested in engaging further.

Thanks for clearing up that little mystery - understood. It does seem a case where some advice could help the OP at least resolve this at appeal. Another case of the railway (c90% down on passengers we read) finding ways to drive their business down yet further...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Isn't the issue not so much about the signage but that Lexidreamer (OP) could not get the ticket required from the TVM at point of departure so took the 1st opp to honestly buy one, but ends up getting penalised for such actions. Surely focus of their appeal needs to be around this test of 'reasonableness' related to the inability to buy the Duo ticket at Brynn?

Help with wording the Appeal for that might be best advice that can be given?

As an aside I have to say that whenever I have encountered a Northern TVM I have found them a total nightmare to use. I doubt any irregular passenger or an older person not familiar with computerised purchases of items would find them usable. I am neither of those things and do not find them usable! And that is when they even recognise my fingers touching them...

BTW - how come the original post has been 99% deleted?

The appeals bodies are entitled to allow an appeal where there are "compelling" grounds for doing so, even if the reason isn't one explicitly provided for by the Regulations. So the unfairness of the situation could be raised as such a ground of appeal. You're not limited to raising an appeal on one ground only, you can raise it on as many grounds as you like.

So ground 1 of the appeal could be that there was no relevant ticket for sale at the departing station, because a PtPN isn't for sale as it's free.

Ground 2 could be about the defective signage.

Ground 3 could be about the fundamental unfairness of being penalised for purchasing at the first opportunity.

 

[WesternLancer]

The appeals bodies are entitled to allow an appeal where there are "compelling" grounds for doing so, even if the reason isn't one explicitly provided for by the Regulations. So the unfairness of the situation could be raised as such a ground of appeal. You're not limited to raising an appeal on one ground only, you can raise it on as many grounds as you like.

So ground 1 of the appeal could be that there was no relevant ticket for sale at the departing station, because a PtPN isn't for sale as it's free.

Ground 2 could be about the defective signage.

Ground 3 could be about the fundamental unfairness of being penalised for purchasing at the first opportunity.

Thanks - good points

 

[setdown]

Why isn’t precedent a thing in this kind of situation? If on previous journeys the company has happily sold a ticket (on-board) after a passenger has passed station facilities, why are they then allowed to give penalty fares out when the same situation occurs again. Surely the on-board staff should never be selling tickets? It’s inconsistent.

How can a passenger believe/understand a “must buy before boarding” policy is in force when they’re sold tickets on board?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why isn’t precedent a thing in this kind of situation? If on previous journeys the company has happily sold a ticket (on-board) after a passenger has passed station facilities, why are they then allowed to give penalty fares out when the same situation occurs again. Surely the on-board staff should never be selling tickets? It’s inconsistent.

How can a passenger believe/understand a “must buy before boarding” policy is in force when they’re sold tickets on board?

Inconsistency could be grounds for a "compelling reasons" appeal but it doesn't mean a Penalty Fare can't be issued legally speaking.

I agree that it's ludicrous that TOCs expect passengers to take Penalty Fares in good will when previous behaviour undermines that policy without a word. That's just the way the world works...

 

[Realfish]

Why isn’t precedent a thing in this kind of situation? If on previous journeys the company has happily sold a ticket (on-board) after a passenger has passed station facilities, why are they then allowed to give penalty fares out when the same situation occurs again. Surely the on-board staff should never be selling tickets? It’s inconsistent.

How can a passenger believe/understand a “must buy before boarding” policy is in force when they’re sold tickets on board?

Notwithstanding the issue about 'promise to pay', I understand that because of Covid 19, Northern Railway have suspended onboard ticket sales. The casual traveller may not be aware of this, but the gateline staff at Liverpool certainly should and that the consequence of this is that one of the ways in which a traveller like the OP could (and has in the past) regularise his journey, has been removed. This situation sounds extremely unfair.

 

[js1000]

Notwithstanding the issue about 'promise to pay', I understand that because of Covid 19, Northern Railway have suspended onboard ticket sales. The casual traveller may not be aware of this, but the gateline staff at Liverpool certainly should and that the consequence of this is that one of the ways in which a traveller like the OP could (and has in the past) regularise his journey, has been removed. This situation sounds extremely unfair.

Even though I am very anti-fare evasion I am of a similar opinion. The Northern network is sparsely staffed in terms of ticket offices anyway. I don't see how Northern can issue penalty fares when conductors have been actively banned from conducting ticket checks or selling tickets.

 

[WesternLancer]

Even though I am very anti-fare evasion I am of a similar opinion. The Northern network is sparsely staffed in terms of ticket offices anyway. I don't see how Northern can issue penalty fares when conductors have been actively banned from conducting ticket checks or selling tickets.

Would the matter be made more complex by the penalty being issued by a Merseytravel station, yet up until that point the OP's interactions are with Northern? I agree with your point however.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Would the matter be made more complex by the penalty being issued by a Merseytravel station, yet up until that point the OP's interactions are with Northern? I agree with your point however.

Liverpool Lime Street is managed by Network Rail. The Revenue Protection Officers were likely from Northern, seeing as the Low Level and High Level parts of Lime Street station are completely separate in terms of barriers etc. Neither Merseytravel nor Merseyrail have any relevance to this particular matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Liverpool Lime Street is managed by Network Rail. The Revenue Protection Officers were likely from Northern, seeing as the Low Level and High Level parts of Lime Street station are completely separate in terms of barriers etc. Neither Merseytravel nor Merseyrail have any relevance to this particular matter.

Ah, thanks - I did not appreciate that as I'm not a regular user of Liverpool stations.

 

[scrapy]

I've been told by a Northern employee (and cannot check this, as I won't be visiting a Northern station soon) that Duos have been available on TVMs for some time (at least a year). You need to select two adults travelling otherwise it won't offer it. I know the machines didn't offer duos when they were first installed (and Bryn was one of the first stations to get one) but did you try and purchase a Duo from the machine on the day you were penalty fared or had you tried in the past to get one and couldn't so assumed you still couldn't?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've been told by a Northern employee (and cannot check this, as I won't be visiting a Northern station soon) that Duos have been available on TVMs for some time (at least a year). You need to select two adults travelling otherwise it won't offer it. I know the machines didn't offer duos when they were first installed (and Bryn was one of the first stations to get one) but did you try and purchase a Duo from the machine on the day you were penalty fared or had you tried in the past to get one and couldn't so assumed you still couldn't?

That's certainly how they work on our similar but not quite the same TVMs