Unified bus numbering scheme?

[HSTEd]

So after the recent timetable change in my hometown (Grantham) we now have two routes numbered 24 and two routes numbered 1.

This is annoying for obvious reasons, and I can't imagine what it is like for someone coming from outside the area for whatever reason - leaving aside the question of why anyone would want to come to Grantham from outside the area.

Is there any particular reason that there is not a unified system for numbering bus routes in the United Kingdom? It would appear that having an Lnnn type system (area letter followed by three digits) would be sufficient.

You could even keep the London area character as a space to avoid having to add an 'L' or similar to all the bus route numbers.

I am assuming there is a good reason for not having such a system? (I thought Traffic Commissioners were empowered to define route numbers?)

 

[David Goddard]

I take it that the 2 24s and the two 1s serve different parts of town, not just two operators serving the same parts of town with the same number?

 

[HSTEd]

I take it that the 2 24s and the two 1s serve different parts of town, not just two operators serving the same parts of town with the same number?

Yeah, the 2 Number 1s go at right angles to one another and the 2 Number 24s happen to go in almost exactly opposite directions from the town.

 

[Eagle]

The area+number format reminds me of that used in Greater New York, where bus service numbers start with B, Bx, M, Q and S depending on which borough they run in (although interborough services use the relatively awkward syntax of including two letters, such as BBx12).

 

[tbtc]

Most areas that had three digit numbers (before deregulation) have gone down to single/two digits.

For example, the Barnsley routes were generally in the three-hundreds when SYPTE organised everything. Now they are generally numbered from one to ninety nine - why does it matter if there's a 57 in Barnsley and a 57 in Sheffield, as long as the two routes go nowhere near each other?

Most of the routes in South Yorkshire that retain three digit numbers are those which serve more than one urban conurbation (cross boundary etc), to avoid confusion.

So whilst its regrettable when two services have the same number in the same town (and SYPTE, to their credit, have tried to resolve this in the majority of cases), giving every single route in the country a four character "number" would be completely over the top. What next - a national pub naming system, so that we don't get confused between the Red Lion in Sheffield and the Red Lion in Barnsley?

 

[HSTEd]

Well there is no reason that every number need be four characters long.

Route number 1 in an area assigned the character K would be K1 not K001.

There are 27 route areas (if London is assigned no prefix letter) which would allow for quite a few areas without huge numbers of bus routes.

 

[Eagle]

There are 27 route areas (if London is assigned no prefix letter)

25, because you won't want to use I and O in case they look like all-numeric London numbers.

 

[MCR247]

At the end of the day, what is the point? I doubt there is really that much confusion caused by this. What about all of the buses without LED screens that only have 3 digits for a route number? It just seems incredibly awkward to mean with no real gain

 

[HSTEd]

At the end of the day, what is the point? I doubt there is really that much confusion caused by this. What about all of the buses without LED screens that only have 3 digits for a route number? It just seems incredibly awkward to mean with no real gain

The number of buses that do not have dot matrix type displays seems to be dwindling rapidly, even out in the sticks the majority are so equipped now.

And many of those rural areas would be fine, since I just checked and according to the Lincolnshire County Council there are only 140 bus routes in the entire County, which means the majority of the bus routes would have the Lnn format rather than Lnnn.

And as to it not causing enough confusion - every little bit of confusion contributes to the perception that buses are not an easy way to travel, which reduces there appeal even below the low ebb that they have traditionally held.

25, because you won't want to use I and O in case they look like all-numeric London numbers.

A good point.

Even with just 25 areas that averages out such that major areas would only need Lnn numbers, since major cities will be one area (London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow et al) and many already seem to have integrated numbering systems.

 

[AndyW33]

Leaving aside the fact that public transport is a devolved area so the Scottish and Welsh governments would need to be convinced that they wanted to join in any combined numbering scheme (and if they are to be included why leave out Northern Ireland?), I think the number of separate routes is underestimated. There's no provision in this scheme for A and B etc suffixes, so each route variant have to have its own number. Then there are routes that currently have names only, which will need numbers for the first time, and oddities like Trent Barton's route numbers with decimal points.
In the glory days of Midland Red numbers up to the high 900s were used on an area basis, plus letter-and-two-number combinations for local services in many towns, and this was just one company. Successor companies believed that using low numbers made them seem small and friendly rather than large and bureaucratic. Of course Arriva/First/Stagecoach's corporate branding rather undermines this.

 

[alwaystouchout]

It's not uncommon for operating 'regions' you might say to have duplicate numbered routes, off the top of my head I can think of two 12s and two 18s in Manchester. I don't think it causes too much of a problem considering matrix screens show the service number and also the route..

I rather like what they've done in Liverpool where some similar routes are grouped together, 14, 14A, 14B etc. Also what NCT have done in Nottingham where services are grouped into Green Line, Brown Line etc.

Also if you were to re-number many bus services, wouldn't that be self-defeating if you were trying to confuse people less..

 

[Robertj21a]

Can't see what the problem is. A bus on route 1 in Grantham is either a Centrebus orange/blue single decker or a Stagecoach double decker in a dedicated mauve/white livery. I can't think of any 24 in Grantham other than Centrebus.

Traffic Commissioners do not define route numbers. Why do we need more regulation in a de-regulated industry ?

Robert

 

[ECML180]

Certainly when you're unfamiliar to an area and the operators duplicated route numbers are very confusing, especially when they both serve the same area. Why an operator would register a service under a number already used is beyond me!

 

[dvboy]

I would agree it makes no sense for there to be two services serving the same area with the same number. A 24 in one town and a 24 in a neighbouring town is fine, provided they are different companies and neither runs from one town to the other town.

Here in the West Midlands we used to have unique route numbering across the West Midlands, until Centro decided three-digit route numbers were too long for most passengers to remember.

Now we have the same company (NX) running no less than four services with the same number (5), and many other duplicated and triplicated route numbers, which is confusing when providing disruption information, especially on twitter.

Number Route
5 Birmingham - The Baldwin - Shirley - Monkspath - Widney Manor Station - Solihull
via Birmingham Markets, Sparkbrook, Sparkhill and Highlands Road

5 West Bromwich - Great Barr, Scott Arms - Pheasey - New Oscott - Sutton Coldfield
via Sandwell General Hospital, Newton Road, Kingstanding and Boldmere

5 Wolverhampton - Bilbrook - Codsall
via Whitmore Reans, Birches Road, Duck Lane and Elliotts Lane

5 Tile Hill - Earlsdon - Coventry City Centre - Coundon - Arena
via Torrington Avenue, Canley Rail Station, Jubilee Crescent and Lythalls Lane

 

[Hardcastle]

Grantham is not a bad town ive been a famous ex grocers daughter came from there to be PM but being positive your lucky to have buses they are slowly dying breed round here.

 

[starrymarkb]

There are two number 1's in Bristol, both run by First and going in different directions - One is the stopping service to Weston Super Mud (recently renumbered from 353) and the other is a City route to Cribbs Causeway (and I can't remember where it goes the other way off the top of my head).

Bet there is confusion in the Centre which is served by both routes

 

[Eagle]

Now we have the same company (NX) running no less than four services with the same number (5), and many other duplicated and triplicated route numbers, which is confusing when providing disruption information, especially on twitter.

Number Route
5 Birmingham - The Baldwin - Shirley - Monkspath - Widney Manor Station - Solihull
via Birmingham Markets, Sparkbrook, Sparkhill and Highlands Road

5 West Bromwich - Great Barr, Scott Arms - Pheasey - New Oscott - Sutton Coldfield
via Sandwell General Hospital, Newton Road, Kingstanding and Boldmere

5 Wolverhampton - Bilbrook - Codsall
via Whitmore Reans, Birches Road, Duck Lane and Elliotts Lane

5 Tile Hill - Earlsdon - Coventry City Centre - Coundon - Arena
via Torrington Avenue, Canley Rail Station, Jubilee Crescent and Lythalls Lane

NX Coventry is a separate operator to NX West Midlands, so it's not really fair to count that as a duplication.

Although in that area, Stagecoach Warwickshire duplicates some numbers between urban services in Nuneaton and Rugby (and indeed one of the duplicated numbers is a 5).

 

[Colly405]

Can't see what the problem is. A bus on route 1 in Grantham is either a Centrebus orange/blue single decker or a Stagecoach double decker in a dedicated mauve/white livery. I can't think of any 24 in Grantham other than Centrebus.

Robert

In Bristol we now have two number 1 routes, both run by First and stopping at adjacent stops on the Centre. One is a City service, the other a recent renumbering of the 352 and 353 'slow' services to Weston Super Mare, to complement the 'fast' X1.

And we have two X7s, one a recent renumbering of the First X10, X11 and X14 routes to Chepstow and Newport (now the Severn Express, hence the use of the number 7, and now with 3 route variations all as the X7), the other is run by Pier Buses to Clevedon using the X7 number that First stopped using when they renumbered THAT X7 as the 361 a few years ago. The 361 has recently been re-renumbered, now as the X6. Confused?

 

[dvboy]

NX Coventry is a separate operator to NX West Midlands, so it's not really fair to count that as a duplication.

NX Coventry services are listed on nxbus.co.uk, the NX app, and Network West Midlands provides disruption information on services from both, hence the confusion.

Thankfully, none of the 5s (or any other services) overlap.

 

[Eagle]

NX Coventry services are listed on nxbus.co.uk, the NX app...

So are NX Dundee services... :roll: (And NX Surrey before they sold up to Abellio.)

 

[Sandy Drew]

The good folk of Chester have 3 number 1 routes to contend with. And arriva operate on all 3.

 

[HSTEd]

Can't see what the problem is. A bus on route 1 in Grantham is either a Centrebus orange/blue single decker or a Stagecoach double decker in a dedicated mauve/white livery. I can't think of any 24 in Grantham other than Centrebus.

The Kimes 24 stages out of Grantham Bus Station.
Additionally I have seen a single decker on the Stagecoach 'Interconnect' 1 before now, I think it was a last minute substitution.

Frankly having multiple identical route numbers is never a good idea and hardly helps the image of road transport as an easy to use alternative to cars et al.

Traffic Commissioners do not define route numbers. Why do we need more regulation in a de-regulated industry ?

Robert

Well deregulation hasn't really achieved much, since the only place where passenger numbers are increasing appears to be the only place that still has regulation.

 

[moogal]

I can't see any reason why the same operator can't use the same number in different areas - having a 5 in Nuneaton and a 5 in Rugby both run by Stagecoach Warwickshire isn't confusing anyone.

The one where I can see confusion happening is where two operators run different routes with the same number in the same area (as the earlier example mentioned). It's all very well for people who understand the difference between the operators to be able to tell a Stagecoach bus from (say) an Arriva one easily and from a distance, but if you're not familiar with the bus operations in the area and you've been told to get (say) the number 1 bus, then it'd be very easy to get mixed up.

There's no good reason to duplicate numbers like that anyway - most towns don't even use half the 1- and 2-digit numbers to begin with. The sensible thing to do would be to not allow different routes in the same town to have the same number.

 

[edwin_m]

NCT's and Kinchbus's respective route 9s share the Nottingham station stop, stops onward to Trent Bridge and a few other stops at the far end of West Bridgford, but apart from these are totally different routes. Not very user friendly at all.

 

[trentside]

The Kimes 24 stages out of Grantham Bus Station.
Additionally I have seen a single decker on the Stagecoach 'Interconnect' 1 before now, I think it was a last minute substitution.

The only 24 I'm aware of in Grantham is the Centrebus service to Newark, formerly known as the 602. The other Centrebus service 24 is between Melton Mowbray and Bingham, and goes nowhere near Grantham. As far as I'm aware, at the time of their closure (August 2013), Kimes weren't operating a 24 service.

Single deckers do get onto the InterConnect 1 sometimes - the normal reason being the inbound 1 is late, so a single decker is taken off the 27 or 66/44 diagrams in Lincoln and then the bus coming in off the 1 drops onto those services. It's rare that the single deckers start the day out on the 1, but I think there used to be a Sunday diagram that involved one of the 'BioBus' Optare Solos reaching Grantham.

 

[MCR247]

NCT's and Kinchbus's respective route 9s share the Nottingham station stop, stops onward to Trent Bridge and a few other stops at the far end of West Bridgford, but apart from these are totally different routes. Not very user friendly at all.

I doubt there is mass confusion because of this. One bus says Wilford Hill on the front, one says Loughborough....

 

[edwin_m]

I doubt there is mass confusion because of this. One bus says Wilford Hill on the front, one says Loughborough....

If so then numbers aren't necessary at all, except where there are two routes to the same destination. Which I suppose is the Trent Barton way of thinking.

 

[tbtc]

I doubt there is mass confusion because of this. One bus says Wilford Hill on the front, one says Loughborough....

Hmm, should we also introduce different numbers in each direction, so that someone doesn't board a cross city route in the wrong direction?

Where does it end?

 

[Royston Vasey]

The proposed solution doesn't solve the perceived problem, because the alphabetical character distinguishes regions from each other rather than services which overlap in one region. Why would you even need to distinguish the 24 in London from the 24 in Leeds or Birmingham?

 

[harry42]

Hmm, should we also introduce different numbers in each direction, so that someone doesn't board a cross city route in the wrong direction?

Where does it end?

The Kinchbus 9 is bright yellow an blue and a solo and says 'Loughborough' on the front and even says the route map on the side. It runs from Broadmarsh to Trent Bridge to lots of other places to Loughborough.

The Nottingham city transport 9 goes from Victoria Centre to train station to trent bridge to Compton acres and Rushcliffe. This bus is green and says 9, Compton Acres on it..

There not cross city routes.

The 2 services don't even start at the same place in the city and its only the small section between the train station and Trent Bridge that is being mimicked. As Trent Bridge to City sees services: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 , 11, RC , CC, KC, BXP, Kinchbus 9 and numerous local ones, the chanches are sim of you getting on board the wrong bus.

In regards to unified bus numbering scheme: You couldn't have individually branded routes which I find helpful. There are more than 999 bus routes in England and you don't have 4 digit bus numbers. (Execpt the 2000 which used to pass my house in Nottingham by DUnnLine. Always made ma laugh. Dont' run any more!) I honestly don't think its needed.

If I use Nottingham as an example: The 36 between Nottingham Beeston and Chilwell is double decker orange and NCT. The Y36 started off as single decker but orange being the exact same route in direct compettion. This was ridicoulous and I agreed so they stopped the Y36 using orange buses to purple ones. Despite having nearly the same route number, almost no confusion is made.