Unit taken out of service due to faulty PA

[guilbert]

On the 0720 from Hitchin->KGX this morning - just south of Digswell we stopped on the fast line for about 10mins. There a few bing-bongs on the PA but no announcement. We then got moving but instead of continuing on the fast line pulled into platform 1 at WGC where we sat for a few minutes. There was then an announcement that the driver was investigating a problem with the PA system in the from two carriages (I was in the rear carriage so suspect the problem was more widespread than he thought). A bit later the doors were released, then a stopping service appeared on platform 2 so most people transferred to that. I don't know if the original service ever got going again.

Something similar happened a few months ago - a crowded 700 was de-trained at Stevenage (it was due to stop there) due to a faulty PA system. This resulted in the platform being dangerously overcrowded IMO.

I get that having a working PA system is "important" and would understand that a unit with a known fault probably shouldn't leave the depot, but is it so vital it justifies taking the unit out of service mid journey - particularly at a place it wasn't even due to stop? I'm struggling to think of a scenario when it would be a matter of life and death - and if they are so crucial why aren't they better designed / maintained in the first place?

 

[vikingdriver]

On the 0720 from Hitchin->KGX this morning - just south of Digswell we stopped on the fast line for about 10mins. There a few bing-bongs on the PA but no announcement. We then got moving but instead of continuing on the fast line pulled into platform 1 at WGC where we sat for a few minutes. There was then an announcement that the driver was investigating a problem with the PA system in the from two carriages (I was in the rear carriage so suspect the problem was more widespread than he thought). A bit later the doors were released, then a stopping service appeared on platform 2 so most people transferred to that. I don't know if the original service ever got going again.

Something similar happened a few months ago - a crowded 700 was de-trained at Stevenage (it was due to stop there) due to a faulty PA system. This resulted in the platform being dangerously overcrowded IMO.

I get that having a working PA system is "important" and would understand that a unit with a known fault probably shouldn't leave the depot, but is it so vital it justifies taking the unit out of service mid journey - particularly at a place it wasn't even due to stop? I'm struggling to think of a scenario when it would be a matter of life and death - and if they are so crucial why aren't they better designed / maintained in the first place?

Maybe in a situation where the train needs to be evacuated, particularly in an emergency? Driver would have his work cut out arranging line blocks, emergency isolations, maybe putting track circuit clips down too etc as well as having to go through each coach with no PA giving people instructions.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Place megaphones in every 700 cab as emergency backup

 

[ComUtoR]

Passengers not getting announcements tend to panic and then self evacuate. The Lewisham Incident is a prime example.

Not being able to give out safety instructions or warnings has serious implications and not forgetting that the PA works in both directions. If someone pulled a Pascom they may not have communication with the Driver.

The PA also works remotely. The Signaller can communicate via the PA should anything happen to the Driver.

Communication is vital and the railway is very risk adverse.

 

[aleggatta]

Not sure of what stock was booked for your service today, but if it was a 387 the PA handset also operates the GSM-R, causing more issues, whereas a 700 has separate handsets for radio and PA/comms. Not sure what the set up is on 365s.

 

[Howardh]

I reckon these days within one minute of a train being stopped like that, pax are already on to twitter to find out what's happening (and may well know more than the driver ) but, yes, communication with the passengers is vital. But to take an unit out of service because it isn't working, surely that's over the top??

 

[londonboi198o5]

I reckon these days within one minute of a train being stopped like that, pax are already on to twitter to find out what's happening (and may well know more than the driver ) but, yes, communication with the passengers is vital. But to take an unit out of service because it isn't working, surely that's over the top??

Why is it over the top if there is a major incident and the driver needs to make an emergency announcement how are they going to do that. No pa you take it out simple.

People would be quick to point the finger of blame at the driver if something did happen and they remained in service known the pa was defective

 

[Failed Unit]

I am showing my age, but I remember when have a PA on the train at all was considered a luxury. I know today it is unacceptable not to have one, but many types of stock never had one as built in the "bad old days". Now you must have working one or no services (which actually also applies to air travel - I have had flights cancelled because of a faulty PA)

 

[Surreytraveller]

DOO (Driver Only Operation) trains need a functioning PA system to remain in service. Trains with a guard can remain in service.
If the PA isn't working, depending on the nature of the fault, may also mean that the driver has no communication with the signaller (as it is the same equipment that is used)

 

[STANDISH]

It is interesting to note the PA not working on a regular occurrence on numerous rail tour excursions. Yes there are numerous stewards often one per coach.

 

[AMD]

Certainly with my employer (which has guards) you need to have a working PA. I failed a train yesterday as it wasn't working on my unit - no ability to communicate with the driver or ability to do announcements.

 

[LAX54]

As others have said, a P.A if fitted, is now part of the Safety System on the train, any part of the safety system does not work, then train has to be pulled from service. ( or should be !)

 

[muz379]

I reckon these days within one minute of a train being stopped like that, pax are already on to twitter to find out what's happening (and may well know more than the driver ) but, yes, communication with the passengers is vital. But to take an unit out of service because it isn't working, surely that's over the top??

That is great if it is in a place with mobile signal so that passengers can get on twitter .

All it has to be in though is a tunnel , deep cutting or even long bridge and mobile signal might be lost . GSMR is in theory supposed to be operational even in these places and on a DOO train the PA is the way in which the signaller will be able to communicate with passengers if for any reason the Driver is not responding .

 

[guilbert]

The PA also works remotely. The Signaller can communicate via the PA should anything happen to the Driver.

Does that work on a 365?

 

[Qwerty133]

East Midlands trains obvious didn't care about having properly working PA systems given the state of them in many of the 222s. About half of the fleet seemed to have PA issues at any one time with the sounds being virtually inaudible in many coaches and dropping in and out in others.

 

[londonboi198o5]

East Midlands trains obvious didn't care about having properly working PA systems given the state of them in many of the 222s. About half of the fleet seemed to have PA issues at any one time with the sounds being virtually inaudible in many coaches and dropping in and out in others.

As they are not DOO it is not compulsory to withdraw with a faulty pay

 

[ComUtoR]

Does that work on a 365?

I don't sign 365s but its a function of the GSMR.

 

[Qwerty133]

As they are not DOO it is not compulsory to withdraw with a faulty pay

No but surely they should be repaired when next on depot. Many units had had constant PA issues for several years at the end of the franchise.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No but surely they should be repaired when next on depot. Many units had had constant PA issues for several years at the end of the franchise.

I'm not sure on the rules, but I imagine a train shouldn't enter service from a depot with a faulty PA, but can remain in service if a fault develops (unless DOO) and should be worked to depot at a suitable opportunity

 

[Kettledrum]

.... and if they are so crucial why aren't they better designed / maintained in the first place?

This seems to be a very pertinent question, particularly as so many posters on here have commented on the important safety role that the PA system plays.

 

[tom1649]

How about if you just get a faint buzzing noise and unintelligible garble? Should that class as a failure?

 

[sw1ller]

It’s also worth mentioning, that if there’s more than one unit coupled together with no access (22x/175 for example) and only one guard, then this also has to be taken out of service if the PA is faulty. In reality, they’d just split it and short form the train. There’s many reasons for the driver and guard to have communication and I’d not be happy to take one forward if this wasn’t possible. It’s all about safety.

 

[Aictos]

Not sure of what stock was booked for your service today, but if it was a 387 the PA handset also operates the GSM-R, causing more issues, whereas a 700 has separate handsets for radio and PA/comms. Not sure what the set up is on 365s.

Class 365s have two separate handsets, one is for PA/Comms and the other is to communicate with the signaller.

If I recall, I think the red one was for PA announcements and the black one was for signaller communications.

 

[156420]

If it’s in the companies DOTE (Defective On-Train Equipment) manual then it comes out.

I know for me, no PA/Cab to Cab, then train can continue provided that the traincrew come to alternative understanding as well as announcements made personally within each carriage by the guard/conductor. Can’t enter service from a depot in this condition.

 

[AM9]

It's bizarre here when those who find that safety equipment failures aren't important enough to inconvenience passengers (actually them). Would they be happy to proceed if most of the doors wouldn't open or if the fire extinguishers were missing?

 

[class 9]

I reckon these days within one minute of a train being stopped like that, pax are already on to twitter to find out what's happening (and may well know more than the driver ) but, yes, communication with the passengers is vital. But to take an unit out of service because it isn't working, surely that's over the top??

Not over the top,Rule Book requirement.

 

[TheEdge]

View attachment 67976
Not over the top,Rule Book requirement.

That's pretty much definitive. On a DOO service a loss of PA is an out of service fault, regardless of anything to go with the GSMR or anything else

 

[choochoochoo]

A failed PA system is definitely a reason to take a train out of service.

What bothers me is that if it is such a critical safety system why do most TOCs not arrange for a proper PA check during a train prep. It really should be a 2 person check. 1 person making the PA and another making sure it is audible in every carriage. (Lots of train preps are done by just one person.)

 

[Bookd]

It is interesting that working PA is now considered vital to safety, when for most of history the railway operated fine before it was invented. I know of course that there were many horrendous accidents in 'the old days' for various reasons but it is unlikely that lack of PA was an issue.

 

[LowLevel]

It is interesting that working PA is now considered vital to safety, when for most of history the railway operated fine before it was invented. I know of course that there were many horrendous accidents in 'the old days' for various reasons but it is unlikely that lack of PA was an issue.

As it's been said many, many times on the thread this is for DOO-P services which only started operating with a few esoteric exceptions on UK mainline railway services in the 1980s, by which point PA was fitted to most trains and all DOO ones.

It's because it allows the signaller to talk to the train if they can't raise the driver.

Guard operated trains do not require a working PA as a general rule though obviously it is highly undesirable for it not to be there given the old approach was for the guard to walk along the cess and shout through the windows on non corridor stock .