United Kingdom/Ireland Tunnel?

[jopsuk]

But it would create jobs working the trains that'd go through the tunnel though, so I don't think there'd be too much gain or loss there.

Trains typically have far fewer staff per passenger than ferries

 

[Comstock]

Trains typically have far fewer staff per passenger than ferries

I would have thought most of the passengers for a train service would come from aeroplanes, not ferries.

I would imagine people taking their car across would still use the ferry?

Not saying there would be no impact, but it might not be as bad as you think.

 

[jopsuk]

If we were looking at "idiotically expensive" type solutions, I'd suggest that there need be no interaction with the Broad gauge network at all- "simply" run a standard gauge HSL Dublin-Belfast (and potentially onwards to Glasgow?). The project could thus help also slash Dublin-Belfast journey times, even Dublin-Glasgow (as well as Belfast-Glasgow) journy times.

It would cause job losses, especially if the tunnels had Eurotunnel Shuttle-like operations for road vehicles (and it would be foolish not to), not just on ferries but potentially on air routes- fast services from belfast and Dublin to London and Glasgow- also to Liverpool and Manchester (if using the Holyhead route) would have serious potential to eat into Air Lingus and Ryanair's domination of the GB-Ireland (including NI) routes.

 

[Comstock]

If we were looking at "idiotically expensive" type solutions,

Given the amount of debt we are in as a nation, I think we can rule out anything 'idiotically expensive' for a while.

I'd be interested to know what we get for 3.5 billion. Is that just a bridge, or does it buy us some track too?

Should we connect with the existing mainlines at Carlisle or Glasgow (or both)

Like I say, I find it fascinating, because of the many different permutations possible.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Not a bridge as such; the Chinese use long stretches of HSL elevated on viaducts through densely populated and/or swampy ground (this is the one you're thinking of). Such a bridge over deep sea is a very different prospect.

I agree though that the "how" is an economic question. If an economic justification could be found, it could be built - the technical challenges are nothing new (c.f. the Seikan tunnel, which goes 240 metres below sea level). If it were to happen, linking a new London-Wales HSL on to Dublin and though to Belfast seems a good option - more capacity than HS2 and a quicker London-Dublin journey than the northern crossing.

No, it wasn't that one - it's this one - which is 4 miles longer than the distance between Donaghadee and Portpatrick (although am certain the sea bed topology is very different).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14069546

 

[HSTEd]

If it really can be done for £4.5bn then it should be done... immediately.

It will produce benefits for a century or more and the cost is peanuts compared to the GDP of the nation, its even only ~10% of the GDP of Northern Ireland, which considering how poor it is is impressive.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Of course, this is the *beast*...

http://tec-tunnel.com/projects/hzmb/

Might make a good news article if one of these engineers had a look at Donaghadee-Portpatrick or Ballycastle-Kintyre.

HS3 anyone? Connecting the four UK capital cities?? LOL, one can dream...

 

[HSTEd]

Kintyre would provide for the least challenging main span but would then require challenging secondary spans to cut the corner off the journey on the mainland which would be slow on high speed rail, let alone on a motorway plodding along at 70mph.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Freaky timing...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538

 

[Comstock]

It's interesting to see it back in the public domain, but that piece seems to just re-hash the 2007 and 2004 proposals, there isn't anything actually new there that I can see.

 

[HSTEd]

Assuming you go for a Stranraer 'jumping off point' with a drive through combined road/rail bridge-tunnel system what would be the connections you would make?

Extension of the M77 from just north of Kilmarnock would seem logical, along with major upgrades to the line to Stranraer (electrification, double tracking and ~100mph running?) from Glasgow to enable multiple fast trains per hour.

However, what about providing a road and rail link to England?
Some sort of motorway/dual carriageway would have to be run to Carlisle - perhaps running as an extension of the M6 now that the M74 seems to have avoided renumbering?
A new railway line would certainly be required because the current route via Troon would take hours even with upgrades.
Perhaps a section of HSL between Dumfries/Annan and the bridge portal?

What about connections on the Northern Ireland side?

There is a lot more to this than simply building a bridge.

 

[Comstock]

There is a lot more to this than simply building a bridge.

There is. A rail only link would help keep extra costs down though, IMHO.

 

[jopsuk]

Assuming you go for a Stranraer 'jumping off point' with a drive through combined road/rail bridge-tunnel system what would be the connections you would make?.

I'd not have a drive through option. I'd go for Rail-ferry option like the Channel Tunnel and several alpine base tunnels.

However:
Yes, M77. I'd consider an M75 or at least an A75(M), and thinking strategically A69 upgrades with maybe also an M66 or A66(M) project.

Rail links: as an addon to the HS2 extention to Glasgow and Edinburgh that will hopefully happen, a High Speed (with freight loops) link across from Gretna with the local line to be electrified as well- as well as the Carlisle-Newcastle line
Electrify the existing local line to Glasgow, but if the E-G HS project goes ahead, extend that down. Build the Glasgow station such that it allows through Belfast-Glasgow-Edinburgh services, and build an HS link to Belfast with a station designed to allow future Edinburg-Dublin HS services

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Assuming you go for a Stranraer 'jumping off point' with a drive through combined road/rail bridge-tunnel system what would be the connections you would make?

Extension of the M77 from just north of Kilmarnock would seem logical, along with major upgrades to the line to Stranraer (electrification, double tracking and ~100mph running?) from Glasgow to enable multiple fast trains per hour.

However, what about providing a road and rail link to England?
Some sort of motorway/dual carriageway would have to be run to Carlisle - perhaps running as an extension of the M6 now that the M74 seems to have avoided renumbering?
A new railway line would certainly be required because the current route via Troon would take hours even with upgrades.
Perhaps a section of HSL between Dumfries/Annan and the bridge portal?

What about connections on the Northern Ireland side?

There is a lot more to this than simply building a bridge.

One could make the point that such infrastructure programmes to at least the ferry ports should've been implemented ages ago, if Westminster was serious about a "national" transport infrastructure.

For instance, the A75 from Stranraer to Dumfries is a joke. It should be at least dual carriageway - even low grade - to carry the volume of traffic it does.

Roadsigns on the main roads and motorways should say:

BELFAST
(via ferry)

As they do for very minor ferry routes on islands.

Then again, neither Westminster nor Stormont was very quick to dual the road to Larne, although this is set to change.

It will be interesting if Larne wins back some of the market share of ferry travel with the withdrawal of the HSS.

And to think - the main ferry route could've been Donaghadee-Portpatrick

 

[jopsuk]

road connections to ferry ports are often poor for some reason- even the A2 and A20 into Dover a bit rubbish towards the end; the motorway into Portsmouth is currently getting a long overdue upgrade- these being the busiest of the ferry ports in this country.

 

[HSTEd]

A drive through solution would be superior for winning market share compared to the admittedly cheaper rail based shuttle option.

Depending on the toll you might even be able to pull away some of the Dublin-Liverpool ferry market based on the travel times being comparable or faster.
Although unfortunately it can't do anything to the Holyhead-Dublin ferry.
Although with sufficiently fuel efficient cars the convenience might be a benefit.

With no security checks and no customs you could potentially get major traffic.
3+3 road and a pair of tracks.


The technical problems are not insoluble, the depth for the most part is within range for existing suspension/cable stay bridge piers.
The only problem is Beauforts Dyke which is why a combined bridge/tunnel system may be better, with the short tunnel section in the deep part.