Uno bus planning to compete with premium buses

[jon0844]

A driver on Uno, working the 614/644 route, told me that in September they will be getting all-new buses that will try to rival Arriva's Sapphire and other premium bus services.

They already have two buses in their fleet with power sockets (USB) and Wi-Fi, although Wi-Fi only actually works on one of them. Plus they aren't always used on this route. I assume the plan is to keep the new buses for this service - and maybe it will have a different livery - but whether that can be done remains to be seen.

The company has a real mish-mash of buses and swap them all over the place (even using its red TfL contract buses on local routes in Hatfield at times) so it should be interesting to see if they can actually reserve a few buses for a single route. And if they'll consider doing this for any other routes.

Is this the way forward for buses? Does it increase patronage and bring in extra money?

 

[class387]

A driver on Uno, working the 614/644 route, told me that in September they will be getting all-new buses that will try to rival Arriva's Sapphire and other premium bus services.

They already have two buses in their fleet with power sockets (USB) and Wi-Fi, although Wi-Fi only actually works on one of them. Plus they aren't always used on this route. I assume the plan is to keep the new buses for this service - and maybe it will have a different livery - but whether that can be done remains to be seen.

The company has a real mish-mash of buses and swap them all over the place (even using its red TfL contract buses on local routes in Hatfield at times) so it should be interesting to see if they can actually reserve a few buses for a single route. And if they'll consider doing this for any other routes.

Is this the way forward for buses? Does it increase patronage and bring in extra money?

It's Uno, I doubt it. If I remember correctly, the refurbished Omnidekkas were described as premium, but they were literally just new seat covers and some cheap USB ports. The only premium vehicles that Uno (used to) have are the ex-Jersey E200s but hey are now in a terrible condition.

Anyway, if this does go ahead and they aren't trashed within the first week, do you know what buses they will be? E400 Citys, Gemini 3s?

Also, I saw a Streetlite with the driver's seat in a new, purple and pink moquette. New design maybe?

 

[sk688]

That's good news

Often use the 614 as a quicker way of getting from Edgware to Barnet , far quicker than the 107

Don't Uno have Citaros too . Remember having one on the 614 recently

They really need to have a unified fleet . Most of them are all over the place in terms of interior

 

[radamfi]

Is this the way forward for buses? Does it increase patronage and bring in extra money?

What does 30 years experience of bus deregulation tell you?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What does 30 years experience of bus deregulation tell you?

What did the previous 30 years of bus regulation tell YOU?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A driver on Uno, working the 614/644 route, told me that in September they will be getting all-new buses that will try to rival Arriva's Sapphire and other premium bus services.

They already have two buses in their fleet with power sockets (USB) and Wi-Fi, although Wi-Fi only actually works on one of them. Plus they aren't always used on this route. I assume the plan is to keep the new buses for this service - and maybe it will have a different livery - but whether that can be done remains to be seen.

The company has a real mish-mash of buses and swap them all over the place (even using its red TfL contract buses on local routes in Hatfield at times) so it should be interesting to see if they can actually reserve a few buses for a single route. And if they'll consider doing this for any other routes.

Is this the way forward for buses? Does it increase patronage and bring in extra money?

In short, it is.

Speak to bus company managers and they'll tell you that 20 years ago, just putting new buses on a route with a bit of publicity would effect a rise in patronage. Nowadays that is no longer the case.

There is the usual wiffle about double glazing being essential - on a train, yes but not a bus. Or air-con for the few days we actually need it in our temperate climate.

Those all have an impact on fuel consumption and therefore cost of day to day operation, irrespective of anything else. However, better seating and USB ports etc are a capital cost and a little bit extra depreciation is more cost efficient than an ongoing oncost to fuel.

 

[radamfi]

In short, it is.

Speak to bus company managers and they'll tell you that 20 years ago, just putting new buses on a route with a bit of publicity would effect a rise in patronage. Nowadays that is no longer the case.

There is the usual wiffle about double glazing being essential - on a train, yes but not a bus. Or air-con for the few days we actually need it in our temperate climate.

Those all have an impact on fuel consumption and therefore cost of day to day operation, irrespective of anything else. However, better seating and USB ports etc are a capital cost and a little bit extra depreciation is more cost efficient than an ongoing oncost to fuel.

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but aren't we talking about new on road competition? I thought that was the main thrust of the question. Such competition hasn't generally meant a better service or higher patronage in the long run.

Hardly anything is "essential". It is possible to run a bus service without double glazing, air-con, Wi-Fi or USB. We don't even consider bus service to be essential in this country, given the service withdrawals in recent years leaving many places with few if any buses, especially on Sunday. I probably don't need to reiterate that double-glazing and air-conditioning are common in a neighbouring country with a very similar temperate climate to the UK. Yes, it is possible to run buses without such "luxuries". They're really stupid in our neighbouring countries, willing to waste taxpayers' money on such unnecessary frills, when they could be saving taxpayers' money by getting rid of Sunday services instead.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but aren't we talking about new on road competition? I thought that was the main thrust of the question. Such competition hasn't generally meant a better service or higher patronage in the long run.

Hardly anything is "essential". It is possible to run a bus service without double glazing, air-con, Wi-Fi or USB. We don't even consider bus service to be essential in this country, given the service withdrawals in recent years leaving many places with few if any buses, especially on Sunday. I probably don't need to reiterate that double-glazing and air-conditioning are common in a neighbouring country with a very similar temperate climate to the UK. Yes, it is possible to run buses without such "luxuries". They're really stupid in our neighbouring countries, willing to waste taxpayers' money on such unnecessary frills, when they could be saving taxpayers' money by getting rid of Sunday services instead.

I read "rival" as a comparable standard not some sort of face to face competition in the same way that Sapphire rivals Gold or Transdev premium offerings.

Talk of funding in other countries and how fantastically and utterly wonderful life is in Den Haag is of no consequence to what the OP asked.

 

[radamfi]

Talk of funding in other countries and how fantastically and utterly wonderful life is in Den Haag is of no consequence to what the OP asked.

It was in direct reply to

"There is the usual wiffle about double glazing being essential - on a train, yes but not a bus. Or air-con for the few days we actually need it in our temperate climate."

 

[overthewater]

I believe double glazing should be essential the further north you go Go back 30 years in my local area and buses were less frequent, now there loads of them but sometime not at the best place times, especially for worker which is a shame.

 

[class387]

That's good news

Often use the 614 as a quicker way of getting from Edgware to Barnet , far quicker than the 107

Don't Uno have Citaros too . Remember having one on the 614 recently

They really need to have a unified fleet . Most of them are all over the place in terms of interior

Yes, Uno, now has NO interior identity. The Citaros are probably their best buses, but even they are now falling apart with mismatched seat cushions etc. Newer buses and refurbed just have different generic interiors.

The 614 buses are fine. Some have been recently 'refurbished' and aren't in desperate need of replacement, regardless of whether they are that premium. I would far prefer some decent E200MMCs or something like that to replace the worst Darts (people who have travelled on Darts 111 and 112 would understand) and a good refurbishment the others (Citaros, E200s etc.).

 

[overthewater]

What are uno like in Northampton? or Cranfield?

 

[class387]

What are uno like in Northampton? or Cranfield?

A lot of Uno's better buses are/were cascaded out of Hatfield, so for a long time I thought that Hatfield was being treated unfairly. Now a lot of Citaros (good), Presidents (decent) and Darts (bad) have returned to Hatfield, both have got new (2015, Northampton have some 2016 ones) E200s but Northampton have quite a few ex-London Darts in place of the Citaros, so the operation is fairly equal. Northampton still have the Geminis which I liked though.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know what buses Uno is getting but someone must as they've already been ordered.

 

[class387]

I don't know what buses Uno is getting but someone must as they've already been ordered.

Any good way to find out?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was in direct reply to

"There is the usual wiffle about double glazing being essential - on a train, yes but not a bus. Or air-con for the few days we actually need it in our temperate climate."

Did I mention another country? I said our temperate climate

 

[radamfi]

Did I mention another country? I said our temperate climate

But somewhere not very far away has the same climate and has air-con and double-glazing! If such facilities have no benefit whatsoever, then why provide them given the extra costs? Trains in Britain operate in the same climate as buses in Britain yet have double-glazing and air-con. You can make a case for double-glazing being more relevant for trains for reasons other than climate but not air-con.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But somewhere not very far away has the same climate and has air-con and double-glazing! If such facilities have no benefit whatsoever, then why provide them given the extra costs? Trains in Britain operate in the same climate as buses in Britain yet have double-glazing and air-con. You can make a case for double-glazing being more relevant for trains for reasons other than climate but not air-con.

Buses and trains are fundamentally different, that's why. Perhaps the need for sealed unit double glazing is not related to climate and the use of it dictates air conditioning?

 

[radamfi]

Buses and trains are fundamentally different, that's why. Perhaps the need for sealed unit double glazing is not related to climate and the use of it dictates air conditioning?

That can't be right as 150s, 156s, 319s and 376s are double-glazed and don't have air-con.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That can't be right as 150s, 156s, 319s and 376s are double-glazed and don't have air-con.

Designs generally of a different era with the exception of the 376. Also, whilst double glazing promotes use of AC, it isn't a exclusive principle. Every species of dog has four legs but not every four legged animal is a dog :roll:

Let me put back to you - if there was a discernible and tangible benefit in promoting patronage and revenue from double glazing and AC, surely it would be more not less likely to be evident in a commercial environment?

Operators have tried and there is no evidence for ridership to be promoted any more than any new bus. Research of passengers shows what is important to them and it isn't double glazing and AC.

 

[radamfi]

Let me put back to you - if there was a discernible and tangible benefit in promoting patronage and revenue from double glazing and AC, surely it would be more not less likely to be evident in a commercial environment?

Lowering cost is of paramount importance in today's commercial environment so they aren't likely to try it now if they didn't try it in the past. Obviously in the British context there are several other factors other than the vehicles themselves that have reduced patronage levels to far below comparable sized towns in mainland Europe. It doesn't matter how nice the bus is if the bus journey is slow, unreliable and expensive.

It is not even all about patronage. The Netherlands has very low bus usage, below the UK, because of the mass use of bicycles. Despite that, the Dutch insist on splashing out on double-glazing, air-conditioning and lavish bus priority, simply because they think it is the right thing to do.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lowering cost is of paramount importance in today's commercial environment so they aren't likely to try it now if they didn't try it in the past. Obviously in the British context there are several other factors other than the vehicles themselves that have reduced patronage levels to far below comparable sized towns in mainland Europe. It doesn't matter how nice the bus is if the bus journey is slow, unreliable and expensive.

It is not even all about patronage. The Netherlands has very low bus usage, below the UK, because of the mass use of bicycles. Despite that, the Dutch insist on splashing out on double-glazing, air-conditioning and lavish bus priority, simply because they think it is the right thing to do.

Let's not lose sight of the OPs question "Is this the way forward for buses? Does it increase patronage and bring in extra money?"

Answer - it does. DG and AC - no evidence. Bus priority has a quantifiable benefit to in terms of both reducing cost and improving RELIABILITY.

Saying some is "the right thing to do" is so amorphous, intangible and subjective as to worthless esp in this context.

 

[jon0844]

Bit more info. Still don't know what bus, but there are 6 of them coming for September 18th introduction. Might be of a total order of 18 new double deckers, but not sure if they're to the same spec.

Wi-Fi, air conditioning, tables and power.

Also rumours that Uno may introduce new buses and move away from the bus for everyone idea of today to concentrate on University buses only. Likely meaning a big downscaling of the business, and less maintenance (and of a more standardised fleet).

My personal opinion of that is they've lost a lot of subsidies from the council and probably ran many routes only because they got a safe (for a while) income. Now they're less interested in taking commercial risk.

 

[class387]

Bit more info. Still don't know what bus, but there are 6 of them coming for September 18th introduction. Might be of a total order of 18 new double deckers, but not sure if they're to the same spec.

Wi-Fi, air conditioning, tables and power.

Also rumours that Uno may introduce new buses and move away from the bus for everyone idea of today to concentrate on University buses only. Likely meaning a big downscaling of the business, and less maintenance (and of a more standardised fleet).

My personal opinion of that is they've lost a lot of subsidies from the council and probably ran many routes only because they got a safe (for a while) income. Now they're less interested in taking commercial risk.

Great news about new (and apparently quite nice) buses. I'm struggling to see where they would use 18 double-deckers though - only the 614 and 601 routinely see them.

It is a huge shame that they could be cancelling a lot of non UH bus routes. This probably means that only the 614, 602, Shuttle and the 610 to Luton are safe. These are the only routes that seem to have routinely good loadings. Most of the others are not used enough to be profitable, but many, including the elderly, rely on them and school routes could also be axed.

Perhaps another company like Sullivans or Arriva could bring buses back to Hatfield?

 

[jon0844]

I saw an Arriva bus driving down my road a couple of months ago (L plate) so depending on how truthful this rumour is, and how much HCC and other operators know, perhaps another operator will give the other services a go.

Uno is a weird set up. It's a not-for profit company I believe, funded by the University. I guess as long as it could bid for HCC contracts and grab all the S106 money on offer to fund services, it was worth doing.

If they have to run commercially, someone has probably asked why they need to do it at all. I'm told they now have so many random buses that maintenance is a nightmare. I assume that translates to a high cost, and so it would make sense to get rid of old buses - and also other associated costs (no doubt including drivers).

BTW, I might have misunderstood about all the new buses being double deckers. I sort of assumed based on what I was told, but realise now it could have been a mix!

 

[class387]

I saw an Arriva bus driving down my road a couple of months ago (L plate) so depending on how truthful this rumour is, and how much HCC and other operators know, perhaps another operator will give the other services a go.

Uno is a weird set up. It's a not-for profit company I believe, funded by the University. I guess as long as it could bid for HCC contracts and grab all the S106 money on offer to fund services, it was worth doing.

If they have to run commercially, someone has probably asked why they need to do it at all. I'm told they now have so many random buses that maintenance is a nightmare. I assume that translates to a high cost, and so it would make sense to get rid of old buses - and also other associated costs (no doubt including drivers).

BTW, I might have misunderstood about all the new buses being double deckers. I sort of assumed based on what I was told, but realise now it could have been a mix!

That makes much more sense. Still a fleet decrease if all the old buses go though.

I'd be very happy to see Arriva back. I remember when they ran the 608/609 and they did a very good job - much better than Uno have ever been. It would give the Garston drivers something to do now that they have lost the 142 and 258 and there will always be ex-London buses to top up the fleet. Uno are making cuts with every new timetable and while we will never reverse the cuts already made, I would like Uno to make way for a company that would not reduce the service even further, even if the rumours aren't true.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of people feel the same way.

As long as Uno run buses, and offer students cheaper travel, it's near on impossible for anyone else to have a go. If the buses go, there's a chance.

They must have loads of old buses that are causing hassle. I remember they got new buses for the 608 and 609, back when there was a requirement to have buses no older than 3 or 4 years old. A rule that must have been quickly dropped because they got them in 2003 and they're still using them today - albeit not always on the merged 607 that then became the 341/641.

I did see a fancy double decker earlier in the year at their garage (with white LED boards) but can't remember what make it was. Perhaps that is what Uno then subsequently ordered.

Frankly, it's going to be weird to see Uno going upmarket.

 

[class387]

A lot of people feel the same way.

As long as Uno run buses, and offer students cheaper travel, it's near on impossible for anyone else to have a go. If the buses go, there's a chance.

They must have loads of old buses that are causing hassle. I remember they got new buses for the 608 and 609, back when there was a requirement to have buses no older than 3 or 4 years old. A rule that must have been quickly dropped because they got them in 2003 and they're still using them today - albeit not always on the merged 607 that then became the 341/641.

I did see a fancy double decker earlier in the year at their garage (with white LED boards) but can't remember what make it was. Perhaps that is what Uno then subsequently ordered.

Frankly, it's going to be weird to see Uno going upmarket.

The double decker was an Enviro400City, a great bus.

I'm happy about Uno going upmarket, but very concerned about further service cuts. I get the 341 every morning and the Dart that is usually used on it is falling apart. This morning there was a tip up seat that wouldn't keep up and the driver had problems with the cab door. Once, on the same bus but on a different route, a window disintegrated while moving. Arriva's MPDs were newer and better. I think they are now in Aylesbury or something. But any bus is better than no bus, which seems to be what we are facing.

 

[jon0844]

I see the 'buses' (if you can call them that) Uno use on the 341/641 going by my house every day and they look in a right state.

I now opt to take the 614 or 644 from the end of my road to the station, not least because even now some drivers forget their route. They all seem to get confused with the route from the station, business park, town, The Common, then back again through the business park, station and Broxbourne - and some go the wrong way through the garden village (they do go backwards in Salisbury Village but should always go the same way via the Garden Village) and they can struggle to keep to time.

So far, touch wood, the 614 and 644 seem to keep to time pretty well - despite coming and going to London. New buses are a bonus, but I'm still unsure if it's going to make a massive difference. Once the bus hits London, they don't accept Oyster, so is it just students they're trying to attract? Is it that students are opting to drive or use the train instead? Otherwise isn't it a captive market that they don't need to try and impress?

(The Uni is paying for them, so I wonder if they've secured a grant or something to fund them?)

 

[class387]

I see the 'buses' (if you can call them that) Uno use on the 341/641 going by my house every day and they look in a right state.

I now opt to take the 614 or 644 from the end of my road to the station, not least because even now some drivers forget their route. They all seem to get confused with the route from the station, business park, town, The Common, then back again through the business park, station and Broxbourne - and some go the wrong way through the garden village (they do go backwards in Salisbury Village but should always go the same way via the Garden Village) and they can struggle to keep to time.

So far, touch wood, the 614 and 644 seem to keep to time pretty well - despite coming and going to London. New buses are a bonus, but I'm still unsure if it's going to make a massive difference. Once the bus hits London, they don't accept Oyster, so is it just students they're trying to attract? Is it that students are opting to drive or use the train instead? Otherwise isn't it a captive market that they don't need to try and impress?

(The Uni is paying for them, so I wonder if they've secured a grant or something to fund them?)

The 341 is ridiculous. The routing is just stupid and it seems to be the only route on which Uno can keep the same bus everyday (not in a good way), and I used to dislike the hybrid Solos on 607...

614 seems to be one of Uno's better operations and is well loaded, hence why they are enhancing the service.