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Unplanned bit of track-bashing (passengers overcarried on Empty Coaching Stock working)

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XAM2175

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Yet they have the most useless 'energy used/recovered' statistics on the HMI (human-machine-interface) screen in my cab !! Why do I need to know that whilst I'm driving ? Who asked for that feature?
It's been standard on Adtranz TMS displays since the mid-'90s, and Siemens appear to have adopted it when developing their own system.

Doesn't make it any more useful, but at least it isn't something that sprung up here first :p
 
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IanXC

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I'm no expert on the PIS system. Should it have showed 'Stand back, the train approaching the platform may not stop here' or something like that.

But doesn't that depend on if the headcode is in the GSM-R ?

Was this a planned termination at finsbury ? Maybe it was intended to go to Hitchin and driver hadn't changed headcode to one for their ECS move ?

Rather depends on the CIS system in place at the location, and what the schedule data says. To a very significant degree it comes down to what the signaller has described the train as - to my knowledge GSM-R doesn't come in to it directly.

An ATOS system will display and announce the next train booked at the platform - if there is a booked empty stock move then there should be a 'The next train is not in passenger service' or some such message if it is departing ECS, or a 'The next train does not stop here' as applicable.

A KeTech system will display and announce every train as 'The next train is not in passenger service' or 'The next train does not stop here' unless it has identified a train described, and booked, to call at the platform in question.
 

choochoochoo

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It's been standard on Adtranz TMS displays since the mid-'90s, and Siemens appear to have adopted it when developing their own system.

Doesn't make it any more useful, but at least it isn't something that sprung up here first :p

Exactly, so when coming to specify requirements for a new train, this nice-to-have was decided to be useful yet a terminal station mode for shutting a train down from passenger service was overlooked !! So once again, those who chose the spec have a lot to answer for.

Rather depends on the CIS system in place at the location, and what the schedule data says. To a very significant degree it comes down to what the signaller has described the train as - to my knowledge GSM-R doesn't come in to it directly.

An ATOS system will display and announce the next train booked at the platform - if there is a booked empty stock move then there should be a 'The next train is not in passenger service' or some such message if it is departing ECS, or a 'The next train does not stop here' as applicable.

A KeTech system will display and announce every train as 'The next train is not in passenger service' or 'The next train does not stop here' unless it has identified a train described, and booked, to call at the platform in question.

Thanks, I thought it might be GSM-R related as it appears to instantaneously change as soon as I register a new headcode in the GSM-R.
 

XAM2175

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Exactly, so when coming to specify requirements for a new train, this nice-to-have was decided to be useful yet a terminal station mode for shutting a train down from passenger service was overlooked !! So once again, those who chose the spec have a lot to answer for.
I suspect it's more the case that nobody asked for it to be taken out.
 

choochoochoo

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I suspect it's more the case that nobody asked for it to be taken out.
Most likely.

But it does highlight that the end-users were probably not consulted about the design or their requirements. Which is very poor when it comes to human factors and the prevention of incidents (including over carry)

And I'd love to see the reason any driver would like to know how much energy their brakes have regenerated whilst they're actively driving their train. Brake temperature monitoring would have been more useful !!
 

507020

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If it was a 700 (as it is the only Thameslink train to go through finsbury park) then it's easy enough for platform staff to walk through it after the doors are closed.

Poor driver must've got a surprise when changing ends in the hornsey reverse sidings.

Poor design on 700. The 717s have a termination mode, where the doors are set so they can be opened from the inside only, to prevent people boarding, and once closed by platform staff as they walk through, cannot be re-opened. But guess what, the software mod is too expensive to put on the 700s.

The people who approved and signed off the design spec for these trains should be ashamed of themselves.
When Siemens are being paid by the companies who operate the trains they have manufactured to maintain them, whether they are 700s, 707s or 717s, if they have written this software for them, why are they being unhelpful and refusing to implement this useful feature, whether it is essential or not? The issues following the power cut in August 2019 were caused by a Siemens software update some trains had received.
 

CyrusWuff

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A KeTech system will display and announce every train as 'The next train is not in passenger service' or 'The next train does not stop here' unless it has identified a train described, and booked, to call at the platform in question.
Caveat: It'll only do that if the station in question is in the schedule as a timing point. I know Chiltern have had issues with that at Wembley Stadium and Beaconsfield in the past.
 

James James

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When Siemens are being paid by the companies who operate the trains they have manufactured to maintain them, whether they are 700s, 707s or 717s, if they have written this software for them, why are they being unhelpful and refusing to implement this useful feature, whether it is essential or not? The issues following the power cut in August 2019 were caused by a Siemens software update some trains had received.
You write as if such a software change is risk-free and free to make.

But that's never the case - and I think it's fair enough for Siemens to say no to making changes that are outside of contractual requirements, because they would be the ones on the hook if the software update causes issues. (Also, they'd be the ones having to pay for the testing and validation.)

Clearly it wouldn't be too hard to add this functionality, but it's up to the owner (or ultimately lessor) of the stock to push for it and pay for it.
 

O L Leigh

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...and so we're back to procedural issues.

If someone else is checking my train (e.g. the guard) I will stand on the platform and watch the outside of the train to ensure that no-one boards while the train is being secured. If I'm doing it alone I tend to lock the doors closed as I go so that no-one can board behind me, especially if it's a double set. On the EMU classes I used to drive I would use the porter buttons on the coach ends to close each car individually which would have the same effect. The point being that I want to make sure that there isn't anyone on my train before it goes out to the depot, as I know how much of a faff it can be when it happens.

I'm unsure whether or not the correct procedures were applied in the incident mentioned (or if the OP informed platform staff about these unauthorised passengers). I'm not about to judge based on the partial information provided.
 

Dave W

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I was at Finsbury Park around this time, albeit heading south. There was a fair bit of out of course running and terminating and my experience (not massive) is that turning trains at Finsbury Park to return south in this way isn’t a regular occurrence - certainly not on this scale I think? I didn’t have a sense that it was particularly chaotic, though.
 

etr221

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I think it might be worth looking at why the information screen displayed
inaccurate information which seems to be the initial problem here.

I'm no expert on the PIS system. Should it have showed 'Stand back, the train approaching the platform may not stop here' or something like that.

But doesn't that depend on if the headcode is in the GSM-R ?

Was this a planned termination at finsbury ? Maybe it was intended to go to Hitchin and driver hadn't changed headcode to one for their ECS move ?
My understanding - from the OP - is that the information screen was actually displaying information about the next train ('to Hitchin') and not the train actually at the platform ('Do not board'), i.e. it was displaying correct information about the wrong train.

What PIS systems shoould be displaying, and when, and how this is controlled is a difficult subject ...
 

spyinthesky

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I was travelling back from Dortmund to Ostend. Left Dortmund at 04:20 having stayed up all night as it was my last chance to get back for Christmas. I fell asleep and woke up in sidings across the Rhine from Cologne Hbf 4 minutes before my connection there.
Had to jump on to the tracks which frightened the life out of an old German lad who was doing something with the couplings. My German was ok and I managed to explain I needed to get back to Cologne for my connection in 2 minutes.
He pointed at the train on the adjoining track and helped me get in and pass my bags up.
A few minutes late I was moving in the right direction but feared my Xmas was ruined. Turning to the other side door where the platform appeared I noticed that the train I was on was my late connection.
It was rare that German trains were late but for once I was quite chuffed.
 

Watershed

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It's amazing seeing the difference in procedures between TOCs for taking a train out of passenger service . A lot of TOCs are still quite lax about it, but the ORR are on the case.
 

InOban

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Given that everyone carries a mobile phone to summon help, the danger from being left in a locked train in the depot would now seem minimal.
 

craigybagel

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I do wonder if those people downplaying the risks of members of the public accidentally ending up at a depot have ever actually been to a depot themselves?

And bear in mind the kind of people who end up in the depot are often not the kind of people who are in full control of their senses - otherwise they probably wouldn't be there in the first place.
 

InOban

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It would have been much more dangerous in the days of slam door trains.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Given that everyone carries a mobile phone to summon help, the danger from being left in a locked train in the depot would now seem minimal.

who do they phone? The police?

“Oh hi. I think I’ve accidentally ended up on a railway depot.”

“OK caller. Where are you exactly?”

“Er. I don’t know. Somewhere in London.”

People are panicky unpredictable creatures. Anyone who has had to deal with the public for any length of time will attest to this fact. A phone is more likely to be used to record a video for Facebook/Twitter/TikTok than anything else so the best thing to do is not overcarry members of the public, even if sometimes it does feel like a massive game of whack-a-mole trying to stop the buggers boarding a train which is out of service.
 

plugwash

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Given that everyone carries a mobile phone to summon help, the danger from being left in a locked train in the depot would now seem minimal.
Not everyone carries a phone and even among those who do not everyone is good at keeping it charged.

And even if I do have a working phone what am I supposed to do with it? calling 999 seems like overkill when there is no immediate threat to life and i'm not convinced calling outsourced "customer help" phone numbers for the railway would be very productive.
 

InOban

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As we well know from TV dramas, it is quite possible for the authorities to locate a mobile phone.
 

Western Sunset

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Does the fact that Finsbury Park has a track with a platform face on both sides of it, have any bearing?

I remember trying to get off a 700 at FP once, but the doors wouldn't open. I kept pressing the button, then it twigged that there was a platform face on the other side of the carriage.
 

IanXC

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Caveat: It'll only do that if the station in question is in the schedule as a timing point. I know Chiltern have had issues with that at Wembley Stadium and Beaconsfield in the past.

If its a booked calling point, but not a timing point, they it relies on the berth offset times which can be advised to KeTech, but which will occasionally result in things not being correct if there is slow running for instance. I would though, be surprised if there is no berth that can be accurately associated with either of those stations. If its a matter of additional calls then if they don't input the stop order by Tyrell then (as I should have stated) the *Darwin* schedule won't include the stop.
 

Western Sunset

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If its a booked calling point, but not a timing point, they it relies on the berth offset times which can be advised to KeTech, but which will occasionally result in things not being correct if there is slow running for instance. I would though, be surprised if there is no berth that can be accurately associated with either of those stations. If its a matter of additional calls then if they don't input the stop order by Tyrell then (as I should have stated) the *Darwin* schedule won't include the stop.
I wonder what this means in English...
 

IanXC

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I wonder what this means in English...

Booked calling point = a calling point planed in advance and shown in TRUST and Darwin at the start of day
Timing point = a place in the TRUST schedule showing where the train is timed to be (this will also show in Darwin)
Berth = individual signalling section
Offset time = a fiddle factor based on where the Berth is versus where the station is
Tyrell = system used to advise all parties (stations, JourneyCheck, Darwin, CIS etc) of an amendment to the planned train service
Darwin = the system which controls passenger facing information

A good number were defined or implied already but I thought it worthwhile to give their definitions at this point.
 

Falcon1200

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who do they phone? The police?

Yes, and the Police have dedicated Emergency numbers to contact Network Rail who would then pass on details to the relevant TOC. And presumably the passenger has some idea what train they were on, and/or where they were going, so it would not be too hard to establish their location. But agreed, better if it doesn't happen in the first place.
 

Tomnick

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Given that everyone carries a mobile phone to summon help, the danger from being left in a locked train in the depot would now seem minimal.
There is risk associated with it, none the less. I don't think you could call it minimal either.

Firstly, the railway goes to great lengths to differentiate between passenger lines and non-passenger lines. There are restrictions on running passenger trains over goods lines (or sidings), and special arrangements that have to be made before a passenger train is run over a goods line (or siding). Facing points are probably the most obvious - a passenger accidentally taken onto a depot will quite likely also be taken over a number of sets of unlocked hand points, where the derailment risk is considerably higher.

Once the passenger's on the depot, there's then risks associated with retrieving them and returning them to civilisation. Returning the train to a station, in a reasonable timescale at least, might not be possible, so they might have to climb down to track level and then (accompanied, of course) negotiate all the risks of what can be a very dangerous environment.

There's also a customer service aspect too, obviously.

I'd still say that the risk, overall, is relatively low - but it's still best avoided, and it's right that companies have procedures in place to prevent it from happening and investigate what's gone wrong when it does happen.
 

eMeS

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Given that everyone carries a mobile phone to summon help, the danger from being left in a locked train in the depot would now seem minimal.
Correction: Not everyone carries a mobile phone which works everywhere. Mine works in most areas, but not in Tesco's shop, Wolverton. My partner's phone of similar age works OK in Tesco's.
 

Dave W

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Correction: Not everyone carries a mobile phone which works everywhere. Mine works in most areas, but not in Tesco's shop, Wolverton. My partner's phone of similar age works OK in Tesco's.
Not uncommon that mobile signal performance is poor deep in buildings, especially when there are lots of people in there. But in most cases neither of those things apply on a railway depot, I'd have thought?
 

LAX54

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My understanding - from the OP - is that the information screen was actually displaying information about the next train ('to Hitchin') and not the train actually at the platform ('Do not board'), i.e. it was displaying correct information about the wrong train.

What PIS systems shoould be displaying, and when, and how this is controlled is a difficult subject ...
Could it be if the TD Berth in the PSB is showing 'SHED' / 'WASH' / '-ECS' or similar, would the Stn PIS will not pick that up, and just display the next booked service ?
 

IanXC

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Could it be if the TD Berth in the PSB is showing 'SHED' / 'WASH' / '-ECS' or similar, would the Stn PIS will not pick that up, and just display the next booked service ?
A KeTech system would pick that up and announce 'not in passenger traffic' an ATOS system, as I understand it, would not.

Of course that does then occasionally result in a 'not in passenger traffic' announcement for a Line Block of whatever, but that will simply disappear when the description does, or when a known, calling passenger train does.
 

plugwash

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Firstly, the railway goes to great lengths to differentiate between passenger lines and non-passenger lines. There are restrictions on running passenger trains over goods lines (or sidings), and special arrangements that have to be made before a passenger train is run over a goods line (or siding). Facing points are probably the most obvious - a passenger accidentally taken onto a depot will quite likely also be taken over a number of sets of unlocked hand points, where the derailment risk is considerably higher.
Those regulations presumablly exist exist, because if you are trying to reduce the total deaths/injuries it makes sense to put tighter regulations on trains that carry more people and the easiest way to make that distinction is passenger trains vs other trains.

But the number of passengers over-carried onto non-passenger lines must be tiny compared to the number of staff that travel on them everyday, so I really don't think this is significant.

Once the passenger's on the depot, there's then risks associated with retrieving them and returning them to civilisation.
Agreed,

If the person is able-bodied, sober, cooperative, of sound mind and accompanied by staff from the point they leave the train to the point they exit the "railside" of the depot I would argue the risk is minimal. The problem is you can't guarantee any of those things.

I'd still say that the risk, overall, is relatively low - but it's still best avoided, and it's right that companies have procedures in place to prevent it from happening and investigate what's gone wrong when it does happen.
Agreed, the question IMO is whether those processes should be adversarial or not.
 
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