Unqualified enthusiam for electrification?

[HSTEd]

Hazel Grove had 20+ years of service before the other trains were withdrawn - due to joining up services to turn them into through ones.
Its a late BR project that served as a regular electric route well into the 2000s IIRC.

 

[macka]

I'm not sure if there will be significant savings in cost from using headspans over portals - while there is some saving in using less materials and less deep foundations (since headspans are lighter), I'd have thought most of the cost in electrification will be project management, logistics, disruption to the line and surrounding area and staff costs.

 

[HSTEd]

Traditionally BR put up headspans using two ladders without actually having a block on the line.

Modern H&S ratcheting prevents that now.

 

[macka]

Traditionally BR put up headspans using two ladders without actually having a block on the line.

Modern H&S ratcheting prevents that now.

Or just standing on top the train tying up the wires as other trains speed by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGEBUAUe5M.

 

[AM9]

Or just standing on top the train tying up the wires as other trains speed by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGEBUAUe5M.

So who would genuinely want to return to such practices?

 

[GatwickDepress]

So who would genuinely want to return to such practices?

People who don't have to work on them...

 

[AM9]

People who don't have to work on them...

Precisely, all this macho poo-pooing H&S practices usually comes from those who might be inconvenienced by them and have no regards for the safety of those that have taken personal risks to keep the service running.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm no engineer, so I don 't know whether this would work, however, would such a wiring practice be possible if, for example, a protective fence was built along the side of the wiring platform and the trains were allowed to continue passing at reduced speed ?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm no engineer, so I don 't know whether this would work, however, would such a wiring practice be possible if, for example, a protective fence was built along the side of the wiring platform and the trains were allowed to continue passing at reduced speed ?

According to the Rail Engineer, the Great Western high output train will do just that - but allow trains to pass at line speed.

http://www.therailengineer.com/2014...ication-arrival-new-high-output-plant-system/

I've never been there so not qualified to comment on how safe that might be or feel.

 

[yorksrob]

According to the Rail Engineer, the Great Western high output train will do just that - but allow trains to pass at line speed.

http://www.therailengineer.com/2014...ication-arrival-new-high-output-plant-system/

I've never been there so not qualified to comment on how safe that might be or feel.

Ah that's interesting.

Personally I wouldn't fancy standing dangling on a wire with nothing between me and the trains whizzing past !

Might be better with a wall though.

 

[edwin_m]

Ah that's interesting.

Personally I wouldn't fancy standing dangling on a wire with nothing between me and the trains whizzing past !

Might be better with a wall though.

Not very clear from that particular article, but the high output train has a solid-looking fence that can be mounted onto either side of each wagon to provide separation from an adjacent open line. I think it shows up in one of the photos but you'd have to know what it is.

 

[yorksrob]

Not very clear from that particular article, but the high output train has a solid-looking fence that can be mounted onto either side of each wagon to provide separation from an adjacent open line. I think it shows up in one of the photos but you'd have to know what it is.

Seems a very sensible workaround anyway.

 

[macka]

In that article, the first picture inside the article (not at the top) has 2 more pictures in its gallery. The last one shows the HOPS train with what I think is the fence for working on open lines.

 

[HSTEd]

Precisely, all this macho poo-pooing H&S practices usually comes from those who might be inconvenienced by them and have no regards for the safety of those that have taken personal risks to keep the service running.

As far as I know very few people were killed as part of these late BR electrification projects with these practices that you condemn as impossibly dangerous.

Indeed the final report on the ECML project mentions no fatalities and only one life changing injury - a man who fell off the top of the train due to a wire failing under load and broke his back on the rail.
That would have happened whether the line was open or not.

It appears that these practices, although they might appear dangerous, are not actually significantly dangerous at all.

Meanwhile abandoning them has driven the costs of electrification so high as to effectively destroy the business case for the majority of the British rail network - preventing significant modal shift as a result of enhanced service and thus leading to additional fatalities due to use of less safe transport modes, as well as deaths from pollution as a result of the extended use of diesel traction.

 

[O L Leigh]

Meanwhile abandoning them has driven the costs of electrification so high as to effectively destroy the business case for the majority of the British rail network - preventing significant modal shift as a result of enhanced service and thus leading to additional fatalities due to use of less safe transport modes, as well as deaths from pollution as a result of the extended use of diesel traction.

You're making too large a leap.

Changes in working practices have not driven the costs of electrification out of reach. Indeed, the new MPV-based electrification train is not so very different from the wiring trains of old in that engineers are working at height on a moving vehicle in order to install OHLE. The difference here is that this new platform is purpose-built with this job in mind rather than a make-do solution based on life-expired rolling stock. To me this is another manifestation of what appears to be large-scale investment in specialised infrastructure equipment which should help to improve efficiency, output and consistency.

O L Leigh

 

[HSTEd]

You're making too large a leap.

Changes in working practices have not driven the costs of electrification out of reach.

Then why has the cost of electrification exploded (in real terms no less) since the last BR era projects? (Cross City and Heathrow Rail Link?).
The costs fell in real terms throughout the lifetime of British Rail, from the incredibly overengineered Mk 1 equipment on the lower WCML through various iterations to the 80s era installations on the ECML and the aforementioned projects.

Indeed, the new MPV-based electrification train is not so very different from the wiring trains of old in that engineers are working at height on a moving vehicle in order to install OHLE. The difference here is that this new platform is purpose-built with this job in mind rather than a make-do solution based on life-expired rolling stock.

Purpose built equipment is all well and good until you realise how much all this specialised kit costs, both in procurement and in maintenance.
Something that is technically the best is not necessarily the best value.

To me this is another manifestation of what appears to be large-scale investment in specialised infrastructure equipment which should help to improve efficiency, output and consistency.

And yet it is failing to achieve this in pretty much every metric you might chose - and noone involved appears convinced that it ever will.
The budget for the GWML just keeps climbing.

 

[starrymarkb]

Have you considered that the gap in major wiring projects may mean NR are having to learn from scratch.

Excluding HS1 (which was all new build) the last major long distance wiring project of an existing line was the ECML - 25 years ago!

 

[O L Leigh]

Well it's not so much learning from scratch as having to recruit, train and retain OLE engineers. Those of you who recall Old Timer's contribution to this forum may recall him bemoaning the loss of qualified OLE engineers from the UK to overseas. Add to that the increasing cost of materials and you can see how the cost of electrification projects have increased. These days you can't just leave copper lying around.

The cost of a couple of MPV-based specialist vehicles is hardly a huge cost when some form of wiring train was going to be required anyway together with the associated running costs. Besides, it's an asset that can be used over and over again in successive projects. Even if this was still BR these costs would still be incurred.

O L Leigh