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Unserved coach markets in Scotland?

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route101

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The Stagecoach X58 isn't really comparable as it's not a direct route and takes almost 3 hours. The most comparable routes are the Citylink M90 & M92/G92.

I want Ember to be a success but i can't see it working out. Edinburgh - Dundee is already well served and they've possibly picked the worst time possible to launch a long distance coach service.

Might give it a try next week, probably sooner rather than later. At £7.50 flat price if booked online , it's good value compared to train and citylink.

Is there any unserved coach markets in Scotland?
 
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Jordan Adam

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Is there any unserved coach markets in Scotland?

Pre-Covid i would've said Inverness/Elgin to Aberdeen direct or Dundee - Glasgow Airport, however both of those would be niche markets and with the current situation there isn't anywhere near the demand there would've been a year ago.

I'm sure there's a market gap somewhere for an express coach service but generally most areas where there's demand are already well served.
 

route101

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Pre-Covid i would've said Inverness/Elgin to Aberdeen direct or Dundee - Glasgow Airport, however both of those would be niche markets and with the current situation there isn't anywhere near the demand there would've been a year ago.

I'm sure there's a market gap somewhere for an express coach service but generally most areas where there's demand are already well served.

Stagecoach have the 10 between Inverness and Aberdeen , would citylink be allowed to operate that and would it be much quicker I wonder.

Not sure how a Dundee to Glasgow Airport coach would do as Glasgow has lost quite a few routes and Edinburgh has it all now.

More regular citylink service from Edinburgh to the west highlands perhaps?
 

Jordan Adam

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Stagecoach have the 10 between Inverness and Aberdeen , would citylink be allowed to operate that and would it be much quicker I wonder.

Not sure how a Dundee to Glasgow Airport coach would do as Glasgow has lost quite a few routes and Edinburgh has it all now.

More regular citylink service from Edinburgh to the west highlands perhaps?

However the 10 isn't a direct service. It stops at nearly every village along the A96, Citylink in the past did operate a service along the A96 corridor but this was pre-Stagecoach having any involvement.

Xplore were actually proposing a Dundee to Glasgow Airport service if the X90 did well, obviously Covid halted that.

I can't see much demand for more Citylink to West Highlands. There's already decent coverage via Glasgow/Inverness. If more Edinburgh to West Highland services were launched it would be at the expensive of Glasgow services and i can't see Citylink being willing to do that. Additionally it's not really the sort of market Ember are trying to target.
 

GusB

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Stagecoach have the 10 between Inverness and Aberdeen , would citylink be allowed to operate that and would it be much quicker I wonder.

Not sure how a Dundee to Glasgow Airport coach would do as Glasgow has lost quite a few routes and Edinburgh has it all now.

More regular citylink service from Edinburgh to the west highlands perhaps?
To all intents and purposes the 10 is a coach service when it runs the full Inverness to Aberdeen route. Stagecoach have tried some limited stop journeys in the past, and prior to privatisation it was a Citylink route. I wouldn't say it was unserved at all.

Anyway, this is off-topic :)

Posts 1-5 were originally here:
 
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route101

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However the 10 isn't a direct service. It stops at nearly every village along the A96, Citylink in the past did operate a service along the A96 corridor but this was pre-Stagecoach having any involvement.

Xplore were actually proposing a Dundee to Glasgow Airport service if the X90 did well, obviously Covid halted that.

I can't see much demand for more Citylink to West Highlands. There's already decent coverage via Glasgow/Inverness. If more Edinburgh to West Highland services were launched it would be at the expensive of Glasgow services and i can't see Citylink being willing to do that. Additionally it's not really the sort of market Ember are trying to target.

Im sure there was a Citylink service via the A84 which avoids Glasgow. I think Lothian Motorcoaches ran it last year, remembber it going via Perth and A85.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Im sure there was a Citylink service via the A84 which avoids Glasgow. I think Lothian Motorcoaches ran it last year, remembber it going via Perth and A85.
Edinburgh to Fort William I think, the 913?

IIRC it wasn't the most reliable either!
 

tbtc

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It's hard to find a gap in the market that doesn't have good trains - but there are some examples where the middle distance bus/coach service has boomed in recent times - seems amazing to me that, given the way that some urban bus routes have dwindled away, there are parts of Glasgow that have a worse frequency from the city centre than either Halbeath to the east or Largs to the west (both every fifteen minutes IIRC - certainly pre Covid). Even Dairsie has a half hourly coach to Glasgow.

Sometimes it's not obvious why one route succeeds as another fades away - the Dumfries - Glasgow service used to be a handful of times a day but is now hourly, but Dumfries - Edinburgh is only about four buses a day despite the lack of rail link (yes, there's not much population between Dumfries and Penicuik, but then there's not much population between Dumfries and Hamilton, and the Glasgow service seems to do okay).

Stagecoach have transformed the Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr corridor from the once-hourly Citylink service (to now when both Kilmarnock and Ayr justify their own regular Glasgow services - but the North Ayrshire services (X34/X36/X44) have seen large cuts - possibly as a result of improved train services - and the X16 no longer runs through to Lanarkshire AFAICR.

I don't know whether the Stagecoach X51 is taking any more passengers from Livingston to Glasgow than the old First X15 used to, but good luck to them for at least trying. However they couldn't make a go of the 23 from St Andrews to Stirling - that felt like a route that could have had an experimental Glasgow extension (as a way of Stagecoach dipping a toe into the Stirling - Glasgow market, plus through services from Dollar etc - could have been a nice tourist route for people at the Glasgow end.

I think that there might be enough of a market for a kind of Edinburgh - Hamilton - East Kilbride - Paisley - Glasgow Airport service, given the lack of rail links between those places and the capital, plus the way that coaches can cater for the kind of "time rich" punters who value a direct Airport link over the option to change vehicles at Buchanan Bus Station.

Something like the aforementioned 913 looks a nice idea on paper - if you can fill it full of tourists at Edinburgh then it doesn't matter so much if it's running late en route (compared to a route that would have a lot of passengers waiting at intermediate places).
 

Daniel740

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It's hard to find a gap in the market that doesn't have good trains - but there are some examples where the middle distance bus/coach service has boomed in recent times - seems amazing to me that, given the way that some urban bus routes have dwindled away, there are parts of Glasgow that have a worse frequency from the city centre than either Halbeath to the east or Largs to the west (both every fifteen minutes IIRC - certainly pre Covid). Even Dairsie has a half hourly coach to Glasgow.

Sometimes it's not obvious why one route succeeds as another fades away - the Dumfries - Glasgow service used to be a handful of times a day but is now hourly, but Dumfries - Edinburgh is only about four buses a day despite the lack of rail link (yes, there's not much population between Dumfries and Penicuik, but then there's not much population between Dumfries and Hamilton, and the Glasgow service seems to do okay).

Stagecoach have transformed the Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr corridor from the once-hourly Citylink service (to now when both Kilmarnock and Ayr justify their own regular Glasgow services - but the North Ayrshire services (X34/X36/X44) have seen large cuts - possibly as a result of improved train services - and the X16 no longer runs through to Lanarkshire AFAICR.

I don't know whether the Stagecoach X51 is taking any more passengers from Livingston to Glasgow than the old First X15 used to, but good luck to them for at least trying. However they couldn't make a go of the 23 from St Andrews to Stirling - that felt like a route that could have had an experimental Glasgow extension (as a way of Stagecoach dipping a toe into the Stirling - Glasgow market, plus through services from Dollar etc - could have been a nice tourist route for people at the Glasgow end.

I think that there might be enough of a market for a kind of Edinburgh - Hamilton - East Kilbride - Paisley - Glasgow Airport service, given the lack of rail links between those places and the capital, plus the way that coaches can cater for the kind of "time rich" punters who value a direct Airport link over the option to change vehicles at Buchanan Bus Station.

Something like the aforementioned 913 looks a nice idea on paper - if you can fill it full of tourists at Edinburgh then it doesn't matter so much if it's running late en route (compared to a route that would have a lot of passengers waiting at intermediate places).
As someone who lived in Dumfries for a few years Glasgow was a much bigger draw than Edinburgh. Better shopping and entertainment options and a faster journey on the M74 meant that I very rarely visited Edinburgh.
 

overthewater

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I don't know whether the Stagecoach X51 is taking any more passengers from Livingston to Glasgow than the old First X15 used to, but good luck to them for at least trying.

It does seem to be picking up passengers, the benefit of course is if your traveling from Glasgow it takes you straight to Shops and many work places. The old X15 went a different way and then they also started using strange stock on it.


However they couldn't make a go of the 23 from St Andrews to Stirling - that felt like a route that could have had an experimental Glasgow extension (as a way of Stagecoach dipping a toe into the Stirling - Glasgow market, plus through services from Dollar etc - could have been a nice tourist route for people at the Glasgow end.

Stagecoach had real troubles operating this route, which included running a bus empty 36 miles every morning just to start one journey, which was never that great to begin with. On the Fife side, there was more frequent services paid for by the council, so do you wait for 23 or jump on another route? The route wasn't operated by coaches ( it did for a spell but its believed the locals did not like them hence there were taken off the route) So extending them to Glasgow would have resulted in single deckers being used, it should be noted, IF that was the case then Glasgow depot would have had to operate at least one of the duties, it might have helped cut down on the dead running but X24 does a perfect end to end service anyways. Would Stagecoach want to compete and undermine the M8/909 Citylink route? The 23 was never that busy. At least with First X53 it will pick up more local passengers especially since Mackies Ma2/3 are now gone.


I think that there might be enough of a market for a kind of Edinburgh - Hamilton - East Kilbride - Paisley - Glasgow Airport service, given the lack of rail links between those places and the capital, plus the way that coaches can cater for the kind of "time rich" punters who value a direct Airport link over the option to change vehicles at Buchanan Bus Station.

Remember the spat between First and Arriva with 600 and 601? To be fair in Lanarkshire there is alot of missing buses routes but there probably is demand once covid is over to see about restore a link of some sort. Trouble was you it was quicker at times to just use Glasgow express IE going give City centre.

I wonder why First doesn't operate more buses into Maxi centre to provide a interchange for users, That would be the best option to test the water for Direct service to Edinburgh. Again with the Shotts line been improved does give most people with a short drive quick trains into Edinburgh.


Something like the aforementioned 913 looks a nice idea on paper - if you can fill it full of tourists at Edinburgh then it doesn't matter so much if it's running late en route (compared to a route that would have a lot of passengers waiting at intermediate places).

The thing is, it was used by locals else where outside Edinburgh, however the coaches that kept on breaking down did not help matters.
 

route101

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It's hard to find a gap in the market that doesn't have good trains - but there are some examples where the middle distance bus/coach service has boomed in recent times - seems amazing to me that, given the way that some urban bus routes have dwindled away, there are parts of Glasgow that have a worse frequency from the city centre than either Halbeath to the east or Largs to the west (both every fifteen minutes IIRC - certainly pre Covid). Even Dairsie has a half hourly coach to Glasgow.

Sometimes it's not obvious why one route succeeds as another fades away - the Dumfries - Glasgow service used to be a handful of times a day but is now hourly, but Dumfries - Edinburgh is only about four buses a day despite the lack of rail link (yes, there's not much population between Dumfries and Penicuik, but then there's not much population between Dumfries and Hamilton, and the Glasgow service seems to do okay).

Stagecoach have transformed the Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr corridor from the once-hourly Citylink service (to now when both Kilmarnock and Ayr justify their own regular Glasgow services - but the North Ayrshire services (X34/X36/X44) have seen large cuts - possibly as a result of improved train services - and the X16 no longer runs through to Lanarkshire AFAICR.

I don't know whether the Stagecoach X51 is taking any more passengers from Livingston to Glasgow than the old First X15 used to, but good luck to them for at least trying. However they couldn't make a go of the 23 from St Andrews to Stirling - that felt like a route that could have had an experimental Glasgow extension (as a way of Stagecoach dipping a toe into the Stirling - Glasgow market, plus through services from Dollar etc - could have been a nice tourist route for people at the Glasgow end.

I think that there might be enough of a market for a kind of Edinburgh - Hamilton - East Kilbride - Paisley - Glasgow Airport service, given the lack of rail links between those places and the capital, plus the way that coaches can cater for the kind of "time rich" punters who value a direct Airport link over the option to change vehicles at Buchanan Bus Station.

Something like the aforementioned 913 looks a nice idea on paper - if you can fill it full of tourists at Edinburgh then it doesn't matter so much if it's running late en route (compared to a route that would have a lot of passengers waiting at intermediate places).

The Edinburgh to Dumfries is a long run, must be one of the longest runs in a normal bus. I think it could do with being operated by a coach like the Fife Expresses.

As for East Kilbride link , it would be ideal to see a service that saves you going into Glasgow.Maybe Ayr, Kilmarnock, East Kilbride , Hamilton and then fast to Edinburgh. I reckon it would be quiet though.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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The Edinburgh to Dumfries is a long run, must be one of the longest runs in a normal bus. I think it could do with being operated by a coach like the Fife Expresses.
Not the standard allocation, I know, but B5LH Enviro400 MMCs are common appearances on the X7 between Aberdeen and Perth, which is considerably longer (in terms of distance).
 

Jordan Adam

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Not the standard allocation, I know, but B5LH Enviro400 MMCs are common appearances on the X7 between Aberdeen and Perth, which is considerably longer (in terms of distance).

The 35 between Aberdeen and Elgin is practically the same length as the X7 at around 90 miles and is allocated some very E400MMCs providing some very Bonnie Views of Northfield in Aberdeen and the Moray Coastline. Further to that E200MMC and E400MMCs sometimes work on the full length 10 from Aberdeen to Inverness which is well over 100 miles.

The Edinburgh to Dumfries is a long run, must be one of the longest runs in a normal bus. I think it could do with being operated by a coach like the Fife Expresses.

There would be no point, only 4 runs per day go to Dumfries, the vast majority terminate at Biggar which is only about 30 miles from Edinburgh.
 

tbtc

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As someone who lived in Dumfries for a few years Glasgow was a much bigger draw than Edinburgh. Better shopping and entertainment options and a faster journey on the M74 meant that I very rarely visited Edinburgh.

That's fair points, I just (think I) remember the days when the Glasgow service was the same three/four journeys a day that there was to Edinburgh - one has boomed whilst the other is fairly static (south of Biggar, at least - the number of buses from Edinburgh to Biggar has got a lot, erm, larger!)

I appreciate that the motorway makes Glasgow journeys relatively fast, and the train service is pretty slow (although Dumfries doesn't have a train to Edinburgh)

Stagecoach had real troubles operating this route, which included running a bus empty 36 miles every morning just to start one journey, which was never that great to begin with. On the Fife side, there was more frequent services paid for by the council, so do you wait for 23 or jump on another route? The route wasn't operated by coaches ( it did for a spell but its believed the locals did not like them hence there were taken off the route) So extending them to Glasgow would have resulted in single deckers being used, it should be noted, IF that was the case then Glasgow depot would have had to operate at least one of the duties, it might have helped cut down on the dead running but X24 does a perfect end to end service anyways. Would Stagecoach want to compete and undermine the M8/909 Citylink route? The 23 was never that busy. At least with First X53 it will pick up more local passengers especially since Mackies Ma2/3 are now gone.

Just a suggestion, since the 23 used to run through to Glasgow - maybe there was a chance before the X26 was diverted north to serve Cupar etc - Stagecoach do sometimes try to innovate services before scrapping them, but the 23 was always going to struggle given the tendered services running in the Howe Of Fife

As for East Kilbride link , it would be ideal to see a service that saves you going into Glasgow.Maybe Ayr, Kilmarnock, East Kilbride , Hamilton and then fast to Edinburgh. I reckon it would be quiet though.

It's a shame that the X16 has been cut back to Kilmarnock, I'd like to think that there was some kind of market for a service from Ayrshire through to Lanarkshire - the X76/X77 have been a big success but Glasgow is obviously more of a draw than Hamilton :-/
 

Scotrail314209

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I can see Stagecoach doing more cuts in North Ayrshire soon. Throughout the day the X36 route is normally extremely dead except in peaks. The half hourly Glasgow - Beith run didn’t last long either. (It was an X36 then turned into a service 25 to Irvine). I can see the X36 staying but probably every 2 hours.

I believe the 585 has been permanently cut back to Largs as McGill’s do the majority of buses between Largs and Greenock
 

route101

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That's fair points, I just (think I) remember the days when the Glasgow service was the same three/four journeys a day that there was to Edinburgh - one has boomed whilst the other is fairly static (south of Biggar, at least - the number of buses from Edinburgh to Biggar has got a lot, erm, larger!)

I appreciate that the motorway makes Glasgow journeys relatively fast, and the train service is pretty slow (although Dumfries doesn't have a train to Edinburgh)



Just a suggestion, since the 23 used to run through to Glasgow - maybe there was a chance before the X26 was diverted north to serve Cupar etc - Stagecoach do sometimes try to innovate services before scrapping them, but the 23 was always going to struggle given the tendered services running in the Howe Of Fife



It's a shame that the X16 has been cut back to Kilmarnock, I'd like to think that there was some kind of market for a service from Ayrshire through to Lanarkshire - the X76/X77 have been a big success but Glasgow is obviously more of a draw than Hamilton :-/

Yes , shame about the X16, i know it was popular with students heading to the college and shoppers to East Kilbride. In the summer people heading to Ayr. Im sure some people would of relied on it for jobs.
 
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