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Untold truths-Great Train Robbery

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g.satchwell

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Are there any former railwaymen left that were actually about at the time of the Great Train Robbery? I would love to correspond or talk with any former staff who might be able to tell me more about the signalling situation (or other) on the line that night in August 1963. Please let me know.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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Are there any former railwaymen left that were actually about at the time of the Great Train Robbery? I would love to correspond or talk with any former staff who might be able to tell me more about the signalling situation (or other) on the line that night in August 1963. Please let me know.

Send me a PM as to what exactly you are looking for. I know some old hands from Bletchley , who may know even older hands. (though time is very much a factor as 1963 is a very long time ago)

Inspector Satchwell I presume !
 

g.satchwell

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Hi ChiefPlanner, thank you for getting back to me. Yes, Inspector Satchwell of the (Goods)Yard! I've been doing some research for a book about the mail thefts and mail robberies that led up to the Great Train Robbery, as well as certain aspects of the Great Train Robbery itself.
I am particularly interested in speaking to former signalling staff from that former B.R region who might have known the signalmen in the signal boxes concerned on the night in question. More generally, I would like to get confirmation that when the TPO was stopped between signal boxes then its continued stationary presence would have been indicated in the signal box. I have other specific questions too. For example, when I joined in 1968 the railways had a well developed internal telephone system. Am I righto think this was in being long before 1963 and allowed for internal calls to be made between 'boxes' right across the region.
In addition, on the 20th Feb. 1963, the 'Irish mail' was attacked after it left Euston and was stopped at Hemel H. when the cord was pulled. I have read the book published by Guard Howells' son. But does anyone else remember anything about it?
Finally, having done a lot of research, I firmly believe that important aspects of the investigation may not have been fully explored, and this belief MIGHT just strike a chord with some of the old staff. What d o you think?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Hi ChiefPlanner, thank you for getting back to me. Yes, Inspector Satchwell of the (Goods)Yard! I've been doing some research for a book about the mail thefts and mail robberies that led up to the Great Train Robbery, as well as certain aspects of the Great Train Robbery itself.
I am particularly interested in speaking to former signalling staff from that former B.R region who might have known the signalmen in the signal boxes concerned on the night in question. More generally, I would like to get confirmation that when the TPO was stopped between signal boxes then its continued stationary presence would have been indicated in the signal box. I have other specific questions too. For example, when I joined in 1968 the railways had a well developed internal telephone system. Am I righto think this was in being long before 1963 and allowed for internal calls to be made between 'boxes' right across the region.
In addition, on the 20th Feb. 1963, the 'Irish mail' was attacked after it left Euston and was stopped at Hemel H. when the cord was pulled. I have read the book published by Guard Howells' son. But does anyone else remember anything about it?
Finally, having done a lot of research, I firmly believe that important aspects of the investigation may not have been fully explored, and this belief MIGHT just strike a chord with some of the old staff. What d o you think?

I have put a feeler out , will get back to you. (PS - bought and enjoyed your book)
 

g.satchwell

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That's great Chief' and I'm really glad you enjoyed the book. I'm up to 39 reviews on Amazon now, and they are virtually all 5 star. I am so pleased that so many seemed to have enjoyed it. There's no real money in writing (unless of course you are really good or really lucky) but getting positive feedback makes it very worthwhile. Thank you very much for your help. If we were face to face I would tell you a lot more about the GT Robbery angle.
 

ChiefPlanner

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That's great Chief' and I'm really glad you enjoyed the book. I'm up to 39 reviews on Amazon now, and they are virtually all 5 star. I am so pleased that so many seemed to have enjoyed it. There's no real money in writing (unless of course you are really good or really lucky) but getting positive feedback makes it very worthwhile. Thank you very much for your help. If we were face to face I would tell you a lot more about the GT Robbery angle.

Hopefully we can maybe meet up , I have a few mailbag robbery issues to mention - checking the track for them and finding them - with a good result. The wrong un's were nicked....
 

SWTCommuter

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For example, when I joined in 1968 the railways had a well developed internal telephone system. Am I righto think this was in being long before 1963 and allowed for internal calls to be made between 'boxes' right across the region.

This LMS film from 1938 shows signalmen using the telephone to warn about a cow on the line o_O
Scroll through to a about 12 mins 30 secs.
 

70014IronDuke

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1963 is a long time ago! I can't help with any concrete contacts, I'm afraid - only to say that I did some runs on the footplate in the 70s (not as footplate crew) particularly in 74 for the electrification Weaver-Glasgow, and it seems as if the subject of the Train Robbery came up on several occassions. I can't remember any details - but I'm pretty sure at least one of the drivers on one run had known Jack Mills. It is difficult to describe the atmosphere when his name was mentioned - but there always seemed to be a reverence and a sort of "there but by the grace of God go I" feeling across the footplate on these occasions. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I always get that feeling. A very strong feeling of camaraderie, respect, and great sadness. There was no doubt that the robbery ruined his life.
EDIT - trying to describe the feeliing more accurately - it felt as if any talk on the subject engendered a sombre mood for a minute or maybe just some seconds among us all. I suppose you could say that it obviously should do - but it was a unique feeling in my experience.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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This LMS film from 1938 shows signalmen using the telephone to warn about a cow on the line o_O
Scroll through to a about 12 mins 30 secs.

The railways were very early innovaters with the telegraph and block bells for signalling) , box to box speaking tubes (!) - much like those on merchant etc ships, and telephones from circa 1895 or so. The latter had fairly simple circuits.

Even in the late 1960's , good old fashioned single needle telegraph communications were in daily use on "minor" routes such as the East Coast Main line. We digress here a little.
 

g.satchwell

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This LMS film from 1938 shows signalmen using the telephone to warn about a cow on the line o_O
Scroll through to a about 12 mins 30 secs.
Thank you
This LMS film from 1938 shows signalmen using the telephone to warn about a cow on the line o_O
Scroll through to a about 12 mins 30 secs.
Hi SWT commuter, the video was very helpful, thank you.
 

g.satchwell

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The railways were very early innovaters with the telegraph and block bells for signalling) , box to box speaking tubes (!) - much like those on merchant etc ships, and telephones from circa 1895 or so. The latter had fairly simple circuits.

Even in the late 1960's , good old fashioned single needle telegraph communications were in daily use on "minor" routes such as the East Coast Main line. We digress here a little.
Thanks Chief ' great to get this help.
 

g.satchwell

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1963 is a long time ago! I can't help with any concrete contacts, I'm afraid - only to say that I did some runs on the footplate in the 70s (not as footplate crew) particularly in 74 for the electrification Weaver-Glasgow, and it seems as if the subject of the Train Robbery came up on several occassions. I can't remember any details - but I'm pretty sure at least one of the drivers on one run had known Jack Mills. It is difficult to describe the atmosphere when his name was mentioned - but there always seemed to be a reverence and a sort of "there but by the grace of God go I" feeling across the footplate on these occasions. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I always get that feeling. A very strong feeling of camaraderie, respect, and great sadness. There was no doubt that the robbery ruined his life.
EDIT - trying to describe the feeliing more accurately - it felt as if any talk on the subject engendered a sombre mood for a minute or maybe just some seconds among us all. I suppose you could say that it obviously should do - but it was a unique feeling in my experience.
Yes, I think that feeling of respect for him was widely felt, certainly amongst all I ever came into contact with.
 

Cowley

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My father worked for BR in the offices at Marylebone during the time of the Great Train Robbery.
One morning the police burst into the office and told all of them to stay exactly where they were while they searched the place (they were looking for a possible insider that had passed operational details onto the gang), they were all questioned, and in my fathers words... "They soon realised that not one of us in that office had the planning ability or intelligence to have ever been involved in anything like that." :lol:
 

Elecman

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My father worked for BR in the offices at Marylebone during the time of the Great Train Robbery.
One morning the police burst into the office and told all of them to stay exactly where they were while they searched the place (they were looking for a possible insider that had passed operational details onto the gang), they were all questioned, and in my fathers words... "They soon realised that not one of us in that office had the planning ability or intelligence to have ever been involved in anything like that." :lol:

My elder brothers office at Euston was similarly raided and them all questioned
 

g.satchwell

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My father worked for BR in the offices at Marylebone during the time of the Great Train Robbery.
One morning the police burst into the office and told all of them to stay exactly where they were while they searched the place (they were looking for a possible insider that had passed operational details onto the gang), they were all questioned, and in my fathers words... "They soon realised that not one of us in that office had the planning ability or intelligence to have ever been involved in anything like that." :lol:
Hi Cowley, that's interesting, what office did your father work in? Was it the Transport Police?
 

Cowley

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Hi Cowley, that's interesting, what office did your father work in? Was it the Transport Police?
No nothing to do with the police. I'll give him a ring this afternoon and find out.
 

Cowley

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Great, thank you.( P.S. I meant was it the Transport Police who 'burst in' or the Met.)
I just spoke to him, and obviously this was a long time ago so he's understandably a little bit hazy.
He worked in the Estates Office at Marylebone and wasn't sure which force visited them, but they were plain clothed so he assumed that they were the Met rather than the BTP.
Hope that helps.
 

Cowley

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Hi Cowley, thank you for the information. I wonder why they raided the Estates Office?
I don't know actually.
Unfortunately he was on bus on Dartmoor somewhere so it wasn't the easiest of conversations. :smile:
If I hear any more I'll post it on here.
 

silverfoxcc

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If he is still around, have a word with John Woolley, the first policeman to enter Leatherslade Farm

He does a fantastic talk and has lots of memorobilia from it NO money though!!
 

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Was it just to cock a snook that led to Buster Reynolds, having done his time and become a flower seller, that his stall was right under the railway bridge in Waterloo Road carrying the southeastern lines into Charing Cross?
 

g.satchwell

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Was it just to cock a snook that led to Buster Reynolds, having done his time and become a flower seller, that his stall was right under the railway bridge in Waterloo Road carrying the southeastern lines into Charing Cross?
My guess is that he knew his notoriety would attract the curious to his stand.
 

46223

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Was it just to cock a snook that led to Buster Reynolds, having done his time and become a flower seller, that his stall was right under the railway bridge in Waterloo Road carrying the southeastern lines into Charing Cross?
I think you mean Buster Edwards.
 

edwin_m

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Getting back to the original question, I seem to remember that at the time and place of the robbery the re-signalling for the West Coast electrification was in progress but not yet complete. The absolute block signalling still in use at the time might have had track circuits in some places, that would illuminate a light on the signalman's panel if any part of the train was within a track circuit. But the line was not continuously track circuited so in general the signalman wouldn't know where the train was unless within sight of the signal box, and wouldn't necessarily know it was divided unless the front portion passed the signal box with no tail lamp on the rear.

The re-signalling provided continuous track circuiting, so the signalman would have know if the train had moved between sections which would typically be about 600 yards long. There would still be no indication of what the train was doing when within one of those sections.

There are some signal box diagrams online that would give more details of the signalling. If anyone can remember the name of the boxes then a search might find something.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Getting back to the original question, I seem to remember that at the time and place of the robbery the re-signalling for the West Coast electrification was in progress but not yet complete. The absolute block signalling still in use at the time might have had track circuits in some places, that would illuminate a light on the signalman's panel if any part of the train was within a track circuit. But the line was not continuously track circuited so in general the signalman wouldn't know where the train was unless within sight of the signal box, and wouldn't necessarily know it was divided unless the front portion passed the signal box with no tail lamp on the rear.

The re-signalling provided continuous track circuiting, so the signalman would have know if the train had moved between sections which would typically be about 600 yards long. There would still be no indication of what the train was doing when within one of those sections.

There are some signal box diagrams online that would give more details of the signalling. If anyone can remember the name of the boxes then a search might find something.


I am awaiting some information (if I can get it !) , on the absolute block signalling on the route , before the commissioning of the Bletchley Power Box (which controlled south of Tring to north of Hanslope Junction / north of MK in the real world , not the railway world !)

Sears Crossing was the box in question , and it may have had some basic track circuits (an indicator , not neccessarily a "red light" in the box)

One assumes the Up Postal would have been offered forward to S Xing from the north , accepted under the block instructions , train entering section given and "offered" forward to the next box (Tring ?) - standard signalling procedures.

If the train had not arrived - the controlling signalmen should have implemented the standard rule of "train unusually long time in section" , which means that another train wold have been stopped , cautioned to proceed slowly on another line , and report back if anything amiss was spotted (like a broken down train , or even a mail train robbery) - the nearest Station Master and Operations Supervisor wold have been called out for an incident like this , and they would not have been that far away - at the furthest Bletchley , though there was then an SM at Hemel.

If the communications and phone lines were cut , then another set of rules should have been applied , basically proceed ahead , at a very slow speed and look out for "trouble" / report back at the next open box. (or manned station) .

There ought to have been other trains around , in fact I am anecdotally told there was a goods train that passed the robbery.

There would of course be a very full internal railway enquiry into this , the question is , have the files been archived or destroyed. (or withheld due to extreme sensitivity) - they MIGHT be in Kew.
 

ChiefPlanner

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searscrossing1957.jpg


1957 - so we have (standard) colour light signals and mechanical home / starting signals numbers 2 and 3 apply to the up fast lines , only one track circuit applies to the up fast lines , (4494) in rear of up fast home signal no 2 , which is at the north end of the signal box.

Clearly more work needed , but it looks as if the other boxes controlling the route are Leighton Buzzard no1 (north) of the box and Cheddington to the south. The signal box is just behind the figure "20" on the map.

This comes from John Hinson's excellent signalling website (a man who is a legend for recording these things) www.sigbox.org (to who any credit must be given)
 

Highlandspring

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That diagram doesn’t tie in with the purported method of stopping the train, which I’m given to understand was a glove placed over the lamp for the green aspect and a battery connected to the lamp for the red aspect in a colour light signal head..? Though I’ve always been confused about how this was achieved as it seems to raise more questions than it answers. It would be fascinating to read a proper report of exactly what happened on the railway, how and when.
 
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