Update on various London rail schemes

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Rational Plan, 24 Nov 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
    Modern Rail has a focus on London again, though some of the schemes detailed are a bit out there and I think they were doing a bit of a Phil Space exercise. From reading it I get the impression that this most of this is what TFL would like to do, not necessarily what the train operators would want.

    Basically all the Olympic work is finishing and the tube upgrade is coming in to the home straight. What to do next?

    Thoughts turn to the impact of HS2. Crossrail takeover of the West Coast commuter routes will help, but ideally they'd like Crossrail 2. They might not get Crossrail 2 though at stage 1 of HS2.

    So it looks like the DLR will be heading to Euston at the moment. It will be an express tunnel to keep station costs down and to stop it from getting too crowded by the time it reaches Bank. Stations would be City Thameslink, Holborn and Euston with a possibilty of curving back towards St Pancras International. One possible problem is Holborn. It's crowded and they are reluctant for the DLR end up paying for a massive upgrade there.

    The DLR to Central London looks like it has priority compared to Dagenham, because of the passenger numbers and they would rather wait for the Royal Docks to be redeveloped first before they worry about Barking Riverside.

    Tramlink is back on the agenda. First is the new trams for Central Croydon and then doubling the Wimbledon route. After that Crystal Palace to Bromley, Morden to Sutton and Tooting are all under examination.

    London Overground has been a huge success, with passenger numbers up 50%. The opening of the New Stratford Mall has seen passenger numbers increase by 30% in Stratford (65% on Saturdays).

    The head of LOROL argues that it is often better to start small and upgrade rather than pitch big. If you pitch for what you need to 20 years time you'll never get the money. If you start small and demonstrate success then subsequent phases will be funded. It's how DLR ended up being created and it's how London Overground will develop.

    The next push is 5 carriages, it could happen as early as 2013/14. It's unlikely that 5 cars would go Euston Watford. They might not expand increase the length of the diesels on the Gospel Oak line as they don't want to undermine the BCA for introducing four car electrics.

    It also looks at the case for extending the Bakerloo. TFL has a big push on this, but don't expect anything to happen until 2016 at least. The economic case for the extension is not strong under traditional tube only calculations.

    Roughly, £1 billion will get you to Peckham, £1.6 billion to Canary Wharf, over £2 billion to Lewisham or Charlton and £3.5 to outer London.

    The big question is no one has created a metric for valuing the release of train paths, if the extension took over a railway line.

    I'm confused by the article as I thought the route via the Old Kent Road was favoured but it seems to imply Camberwell, Peckham then Lewisham. The problem with this is that going via Camberwell only has a BCA of 1.4:1 compared to 1.9:1 via the Old Kent Road. This is due to it's shorter length and faster journey times foe the outer section to Hayes.

    The Pro's of the Bakerloo extension are regeneration, use of an underused tube line cross London, release of train paths into London Bridge.

    The cons against are:

    Affordability. Any cost overruns on the tube upgrade plan will impact the ability to fund this line. delays will mean that other projects may over take it.

    Spending priorities. Crossrail 2 and Hs2 could suck up all the money for a long time. There are no strong lobby groups in favour of the Bakerloo extension.

    The most congested routes in South East London are Bromley via Herne Hill and Croydon to London Bridge, not the Lewisham routes.

    The economics of replacing one 12 carriage Networker with 2 to 3 tube trains for the same capacity.

    Value of Money. The DFT usually wants a scheme to get a BCR of 2:1 for a new scheme.

    Also there was a hint that thoughts of Crossrail 2 being an automated Metro a la Ligne 14 in Paris. That might suit TFL not sure how Network Rail would feel about it.

    There is some interesting blurb on the Northern line upgrade and then we get to the bizarre schemes! More in part 2
     
    Last edited: 24 Nov 2011
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Fred26

    Fred26 Member

    Messages:
    901
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2010
    I'm very interested in the DLR and London Overground. I shall buy the magazine in a little while.
     
  4. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,417
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    I thought Crossrail 2 was going to take over some southern suburban trains that currently route through Wimbledon station, at which point it seems a shame to deliberately restrict its loading gauge to the size of a "Metro", especially as so much of the line is above ground, with the only existing tunnel on the proposed route being on the District Line.

    Either way, very intersting.
     
  5. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

    Messages:
    7,691
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    i think before getting carried away with new routes i.e crossrail 2 etc they should see how successfull the first phase is and how the consept works for London and surrounding areas.

    It also baffles me why they didnt electrify the one isolated bit of overground rather than get new trains for it?


    Would have thought too that tube upgrade phase 2 would take prioritty over extentions with work to include more step free access, new trains for the Bakerloo and Pickadilly and all the bits of track and signaling work that havent been done in phase 1.
    The bakerloo stock wil soon be the oldest on the network and with Bombardia stil a hot topic a fleat of new units built by them would keep them going till the Pacer and Sprinter replacement work starts to flud in? I know things have to be tendered but politically it would look good surely? oh and scrap the borris master and put the money elsewhere!

    If DLR did go to Euston it would be better for it not to call at Holborn as a fast quieter non stop run would I think be far more attractive to the kind of long distance traffic both from EUS and nearby JGX/ST handles than something that gets hammered with local journeys!
     
  6. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
    Various marginal ideas are also presented in the Magazine.

    They resurrected that old Hillingdon scheme to extend the Central line to Uxbridge from the Ruislip branch. Whatever happens it can't happen until the signalling is updated on the Metropolitan.

    Various minds have been very busy over how to improve access to Heathrow.

    First their is Wandsworth Airtrack lite scheme, that combines existing services into Heathrow, thereby avoiding the level crosssing problem. The only problem with is, the main benefits of the airtrack scheme was the additional capacity the extra trains provided to the existing network.

    [​IMG]

    It also looks at other schemes outlined by a report done by Atkins for Slough council.

    [​IMG]

    The options were:

    Use the freight line from Colnbrook to get to the Great Western, with a new western facing junction and a tunnel from T5 to the freight line (£550 million.

    A new tunnel to from T5 to Langley. This costs £740 million but is much shorter and has few curves.

    Extend the Piccadilly to Slough on a direct course £1.19 billion.

    This would be wildly popular locally, especially is there were a couple of intermediate stations. It would be the most useful for airport workers as it would link all the main sites and provide a direct link to Hounslow, which has strong links to Slough.


    Extend the Piccadilly to Slough via the Windsor lines (£770 million), with a new tunnel under Windsor linking up the two lines. It's not recorded how the existing Windsor train service to Waterloo would integrate.

    Extend the Piccadilly up the the Colnbrook freight line to a New Heathrow hub station at Iver, at a cost of £1.1 billion. I assume this option included a 12 platform station and an M25 link.


    Another option mentioned is a scheme by a local engineer which is pretty much the same as the Piccadilly extension to Slough via the Windsor lines, except that it would be a heavy rail line. This appeals to me as it would allow direct trains from Slough to Staines and onwards, they'd just need to extend the Windsor terminators.


    Next the orbital west london mini metro
     
  7. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    8,944
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    London is working hard to associate Crossrail 2 as a requirement for HS2, sadly I fear they may win it as a sop and you will have the ridulousness of them spending more per year on that than HS2 itself!
     
  8. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
     
    Last edited: 24 Nov 2011
  9. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,417
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    Is that West London mini metro concept using railway or former railway infrastructure for parts of its route or is it to be entirely new build? Additionally would any new sections be built elevated or in tunnels?
     
  10. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
    it was to be a fully tunneled mini metro. much shorter trains than the tube network so much smaller and therefore cheaper stations. An entirely underground DLR network in effect.
     
  11. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    The 5 car Overground - did that specify if ELL or WLL/NLL?
     
  12. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    It states five cars for ELL,NLL, WLL & DC and four cars for GOBLIN lines is the long plan after electrification. Does mention that the DC will likely get 5 cars last as the demand isn't there.

    Also mentioned in the story was the fact that the 378 we designed five car but not six. Doing six car would be a big project along the lines of sorting out Clapham Junction's abandoned platform.
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2011
  13. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,882
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Thanks for posting this - I'll pick up a copy, sounds very interesting

    I've quoted these two unconnected comments as I think that the expansion of Crossrail will be very interesting, once it is up and running.

    I think it'll be a sucess, as a stand alone operation, which will encourage plans for expansion onto surrounding branches (the Tring services on the WCML, maybe some southern parts of Chiltern, SWT terriroty beyond Heathrow, the Medway towns, further into Essex...). Personally I think that the second stage of (the first) Crossrail line is more interesting than any plan for a second Crossrail line through London (CHELNEY etc).

    Without trying to start an argument, its good to see this level of investment being talked about on various different schemes in/around London - It's a shame that this is at the same time that we are squabbling over "peanuts" further north, but I'm happy to see London lead the way (especially if there are some LO 172s going spare in a few years...) :)
     
  14. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    I'd be interested to know about DC patronage in the last year. I've taken it a few times and it's been full and standing out of Euston PM.

    I've also seen it arrive into Queens Park at about 8:30am almost full. I think the new longer trains have had the same effect here, even if it has been less documented.
     
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,882
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Could it be that due to sharing revenue with the Bakerloo there's not the same incentive to invest in longer trains here?

    (compared to the other LO routes, where they can account for any increased passenger numbers directly)
     
  16. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,753
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    In theory, how long could Watford DC line trains be without needing SDO? a 72 stock train is ~112m long, so clearly 5-car, 100m long class 378s would be fine at the shared stations.
     
  17. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    I think they could run tomorrow - Kilburn HR and South Hampstead both have long platforms too.

    Forgot about north of H&W...not too sure on those. From what I recall, maybe Bushey and Hatch End could be problematic?
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2011
  18. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,417
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    Google Earth puts the DC platforms at Bushey at 120+ metres, same at Hatch End.
     
  19. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    I wonder it the crowding is peak only compared to the NLL, WLL and ELL are more spread out all day?

    I bet it affects investment in both the Bakerloo and LO tbh.

    Tube trains used to run up that far so it maybe be a case of upgrading platform areas (properly just as expensive as new build)
     
  20. lancastrian

    lancastrian Member

    Messages:
    475
    Joined:
    2 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Bolton, Lancashire
    Well I enjoyed reading these articles in Modern Railways and some of it was very thought prevoking. However if only 10% of the money spent in the Greater London/South East of England, was spent in the North West we would have a fantastic system there.

    An extended and improved Merseyrail, extended from Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, Ellesmere Port to Helsby and Bidston to Wrexham Central.

    All of the suburban lines around Manchester would be electrified, the lines between Bolton & Blackburn, Preston & Burscough Junction and Kirkham & Blackpool South would be redoubled. The Colne to Skipton line reopened, and possibly all the East Lancashire lines Preston to Skipton and Todmorden electrified.

    Railways really started properly in Lancashire, and along with the rest of the North of England we need proper investment in our Railways, not the table scraps that we get now. They are better than nothing, but we need real investment, NOW.
     
  21. ajax103

    ajax103 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,277
    Joined:
    28 Apr 2009
    Couldn't have agreed more, :)
     
  22. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,882
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    London dominates the UK rail spending. But if you think that "the north" gets a raw deal compared to London then consider how "Manchester" gets significantly more of the "scraps" than the rest of "the north".

    For example, recently announced investment:

    • Electrification of Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss
    • Electrification of Manchester to Blackpool via Bolton
    • Electrification of Manchester to Leeds via Huddersfield
    • New chord at Ordsall in Manchester
    • Other "Northern Hub" improvements around Manchester like additional through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly

    ...meanwhile the rest of "the north" gets the real "table scraps".

    Personally I've no problem with investment in London (despite living in Yorkshire).
     
  23. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

    Messages:
    2,255
    Joined:
    31 Aug 2008
    Location:
    Portsmouth
  24. ntg

    ntg Member

    Messages:
    123
    Joined:
    27 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Potters Bar, Herts
    A bit more from Boris here.

    Strange that Nine Elms and Vauxhall are mentioned, as far as I was aware, only Nice Elms and Battersea were planned. Also more interestingly...

     
    Last edited: 29 Nov 2011
  25. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    18,221
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    They seem to have fixed it since you posted. Vauxhall is no longer mentioned...
     
  26. ntg

    ntg Member

    Messages:
    123
    Joined:
    27 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Potters Bar, Herts
    Has anyone seen, or does anyone know more about, these two new Chelney routes?

    The former "metro" line is a huge surprise but the regional one is like no variation of the safeguarded routes I've seen. It seems to link the South Western Mainline with the ECML via Palace Gates and up the Hertford East via WAML :s
     
  27. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    18,221
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    The idea to run the SWML main suburban services into Crossrail 2 is only quite recent, it came up in the final version of the NR London and SE RUS. Likewise extending to the east onto the WA routes, previously the idea was to take over part of the Central.

    None of these possible extensions would be mentioned in the published route safeguarding, because that is only concerned with the route as it stood a few years ago.
     
  28. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    We've discussed it here too. As I remember talking about the imbalance of TPH with the West Anglia route.

    4tph via Seven Sisters
    2tph Hertford East
    4tph Chingford
    and if desperate:
    2tph Cambridge
    4tph Stansted

    Nowhere close to the SW services so far, even if WA could take more, such as to Enfield for example.
     
  29. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
    But that map shows a new underground branch to ally pally and wood green, it would intercept suburban traffic from the great northern and piccadilly line in the North, as well as West anglia. In the South apart from taking over many SWT options it would intercept the southern end of the Northern line.
     
  30. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,417
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    Well the Great Northern Traffic is almost all gone to Thameslink already and the Southern End of the Northern line would preclude main line scale stock being used without massive tunnel expansion works.

    Additionally, am I the only one that things an "automated metro" on the Crossrail 2 route is a waste of money and a perfectly good safeguarded route.
     
  31. ntg

    ntg Member

    Messages:
    123
    Joined:
    27 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Potters Bar, Herts
    That was my thinking - I'm not quite sure whether the map intends to reinstate Palace Gates (which I think is quite built on, but whose alignment this seems to follow) and have ECML traffic diverted down it which makes little sense given the saturation of the ECML by Thameslink, or whether it's, as it seems to be though lack of a portal, a tunnel terminating there.

    And yeah, I think the idea of future LUL or light underground light rail lines is dead when you can build Crossrails for a similar price.

    It'd be nice to see the literature this originated from.

    Edit: here it is, if anyone hasn't seen it.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item05-ECPP-Nov-2011-HS2.pdf

    Indeed, it seems they want and ECML connection and ally pally. Maybe they want to rob the Hertford Loop of some of it's thanks-to-thameslink extra Moorgate trains!
     
    Last edited: 8 Dec 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page