*UPDATED* Idea Greater Bristol area redraw

Discussion in 'Buses & Coaches' started by freetoview33, 21 Aug 2015.

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  1. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Where is Weston to Cribbs hourly?

    125: Weston-super-Mare - Wells (As service 26/126, but serving Wookey Hole, every 60 mins, single decker)

    126: Weston-super-Mare - West Harptree (As 135/A2, every 120 mins, single decker)

    127: Weston-super-Mare - Bristol Airport (As A2, every 120 mins, single decker)

    128: Weston-super-Mare - Nailsea (As 850, every 60 mins, single decker)

    129: Weston-super-Mare - Cribbs Causeway (As X5, every 120 mins, single decker)


    Why does Chew Magna need a link to Bath? What's the evidence? It can barely sustain a service to Bristol which is a damn sight bigger and closer so why Bath?

    Also, how do you suggest running a full size vehicle on the roads to Chew, either from Pensford or Stanton Wick?

    The A4 is hardly laden with passengers but it manages to get local passengers through Bath to Saltford/Keynsham as well as passengers from there and south Bristol and to the Airport. The actual trade from Bath to the Airport isn't very great.

    You've got to run where the chimney pots are and where the demand is. The fact is places like Marksbury or Stanton Wick.... in fact, the whole Chew Valley is very sparsely populated and dominated with very affluent people. Sadly, the realities are that bus services have never and will never be great in that area; there just aren't that many people.

    Likewise, I don't think you've got to grips with that nor that you can simply "move demand" by funnelling people from one service to something inferior.

    I do appreciate your time and effort on this but I think there's some fundamental issues that you have to understand and then incorporate.

    PS I don't know what you meant by your "keepign a depot only for those routes" line as it seems to be tacked onto some stuff about Weston where you propose to have a depot anyway?
     
    Last edited: 14 Sep 2015
  2. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    129 would be hourly.
     
  3. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    So basically, the 129 is actually just the X5 and the 850 would be an additional hourly service?

    Like I say..... where are the chimney pots? Where do people travel to? Why do they travel? Another example...

    If people travel from Trowbridge to Frome, and from Frome to Radstock, then why not from Trowbridge to Radstock?

    They could but you know what, they don't. Talk to people in either town and they just don't do it, even by car. They've no reason to, there's no link historically (despite a road between the two).

    Never forget - it's all about people and what the average person wants....
     
  4. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    No as the X5 is currently operated by Double Deckers (On the whole) and the new service would be single decker.

    You yourself stated there was a demand for Nailsea - Clevedon.

    The 128 (Would be the A2, Nailsea to Clevedon, then additional service onwards to Weston, To make up for loss of capacity on the 129
     
  5. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Chimney pots refers to Chew Valley - wasn't talking about demand from Nailsea to Clevedon.

    Your plan would make sense if the majority of demand was at the Weston end which, in my experience and shown by the various changes, it ain't. Expect deckers to reappear on the X5 as the crowds head into Cribbs.
     
  6. ValleyLines142

    ValleyLines142 Established Member

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    You're a right cow :lol:

    But you're right.
     
  7. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I've always thought it a bit of an omission that the Gloucester Road corridor didn't have any buses to Temple Meads yet the Blackboy Hill corridor had loads of routes. I remember that the 73 used to have buses that went around at Temple Quay, but that extension was axed yonks ago.

    I suppose now that the 70/71 now runs through to Temple Meads at all times (except overnight) and not just on Sundays as previously is a huge improvement, and also the creation of the 71 that goes along the Gloucester Road rather than turning off at the Arches to go through Ashley Down.
     
  8. THarris123

    THarris123 Established Member

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    My time to moo

    Grandwazoo is wrong (to a certain degree). Yes ok there wouldn't be enough demand in Chew Valley area for a single deck service every hour, but a solo serving each village every 2 hours there would be. You seem to underanticipate the amount of demand. Have you actually used any of the services or explored any of the villages? I have and can tell you there is demand.

    Demand on the 672 was growing before Bugler came along. Demand has been growing on 683, 640 and they're even having to use Somerbus' citaro on 134 and 135. I have always been under the belief that we should have 3 two hourly solo run buses through Chew and withdraw the council run routes. One going Wells to Bristol, via Priddy, Blagdon, Ubley, Chew Stoke/Magna, Winford, maybe Felton, Dundry and into Bristol, another two going Bath to Weston, one via Marksbury, High Littleton, Clutton, Bishop Sutton, Harptree and along the main road to Weston, then the other would be a stopper route going round all the villages and the airport. Single deckers would be used on this at peak and serve chew valley school, which should save the council some money on school contracts. Then there would be a daily service twice going Keynsham to Trowbridge via Pensford, Bishop Sutton (as a transfer point for services) then to Clutton, Paulton, Norton and up to Trowbridge via 185 route (note there is plenty of demand on 185, but only between Paulton/Norton area to Trowbridge).

    Chew Valley is neither no longer that affluent. I went to Chew Valley school and can tell you that certainly places like Sutton aaren't affluent- they're building new homes and social housing there and I hear all the time people complaining about such a lack of services. The council's are also looking into doing something soon too.
     
  9. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    Thank you!
     
  10. Class 33

    Class 33 Established Member

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    What is your reason for swapping the routes of the 70 & 71?

    I think there should be a service that goes from or via(from wherever) the Centre, The Haymarket, Cheltenham Road, Zetland Road, into Redland, and then onto wherever. A quick direct link from Broadmead-Redland. Like the old 13, 14, & 15 from the old pre October 1986 years.

    As currently if you want to go between Broadmead and the middle area of Redland, there is the 8 & 9 and the 72 or Wessex Connect's 19, which all go via the Centre and not really the most direct routes!

    The 8 & 9 can also be frequently late too at busy times, which is annoying. And often over-crowded. I was waiting for a 9 on Saturday from Rupert Street to Redland. I had unfortunately just missed a 72. The next bus display screen said the next 9 was another 24 minutes away!(and knowing the reliability of these screens, it would be at least a few minutes longer than 24 minutes!) I had heavy shopping with me so wanted a service that took me nearer to my house. Otherwise I would also be able to get a 1,2,3 or 4 from Rupert Street to Clifton Down Station and then about a 12 minute walk to my house. I couldn't be doing with waiting at least 24 minutes for a 9, so I waited another 5 minutes and got on an 8. Though that goes the annoying long way round via all through Clifton first!

    Quite often it is actually quicker for me to walk between Redland and either Broadmead or the Centre!

    There is a gap in the market I think for such a service that is routed similarly to the service you propose, though not specifically number service 72. And if First don't bother, then I would like to see Wessex Connect or Abus introduce such a service.
     
    Last edited: 14 Sep 2015
  11. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Sorry but there's a lot of difference between looking at a once a week bus like the 185 with a dozen pensioners and then extrapolating that to say that there's some sort of demand.

    Essentially, take the 752 and the passengers it carries once a week but instead of once a week, make it daily every hour. Doesn't make sense.

    And as for the Chew Valley not being affluent. Give over - 2013 average UK house price was £172k. Bristol average was £223k. Chew Valley - £320k!!!! Hartcliffe it is not!

    As I say, if this was some sort of massively depressed area of latent demand then fair enough. However, the 672 DID get a massively uplifted service with RBC money but even that didn't last. Many people say "oh, if only we had a service then we'd use it". Look at the Somerset services that were made hourly - 161, 184, 29 - build it and they will come? Experience shows they don't.
     
  12. THarris123

    THarris123 Established Member

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    You're welcome, but you're not quite off the hook. I can't really comment on your plans for the Bristol city routes, but I think you're proposed ideas of the country routes aren't quite there and some are a bit daft. I'm going to try to have a go at a plan for the country routes myself and what I think would your ideas should look like. It's mostly to do with numbering issues and frequency, but you've got the routes right. I'll post in the next few days.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Again have you actually explored the routes and villages? Figures are one thing, but seeing it with your own eyes is another. And how do you know that 752 would be hourly - one route every 2 hours goes one way around chew from Bath to Weston and the other goes a different way. Nsc is lately talking about sscrapping 672 and replacing it with a more regular decent service.
     
  13. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    My 72 proposal is to Go up Cheltenham Road, then Zetland Road, Redland Road, Coldharbour Road, Linden Road, Then Henleaze road and the old 15 to U.W.E
     
  14. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Been on the 672. 185 goes past my house.

    I was talking about ftv33's plan for a bus every hour to Bath. However, if there's such a demand a) why doesn't the 672 do more on the timings it has b) why has no-one rushed in to fill this apparent gap in the market - ask Andy Fear next time you see him and c) why do they all run with council support?

    A half full bus on a once a week service does not translate into demand six days a week, several times a day.
     
  15. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    Because really the main route up Gloucester Road to U.W.E is now the 71! And if you were starting totally from scratch you would more likely call that the 70!
     
  16. THarris123

    THarris123 Established Member

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    Re chew valley - I'll come up with a plan and justification when I'm back home (I'm in Glasgow atm with a terrible phone to use!)
     
  17. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    Currently Chew Magna is served by

    67, 134, 135, 140, 460, 640, 672, 683, 752, 754 (Yes most are school trips or once a week)

    but I would have

    54: 2 Hourly Bristol - Wells
    139: 2 Hourly Bath - Bristol Airport

    And Blagdon by

    128, 134, 135, 672, 683

    and I would have

    126: 2 Hourly Weston-super-Mare - West Harptree

    Yes Blagdon wouldn't have a direct link to Bristol but I would make sure interchange was possible with the 54 at West Harptree so there would still be a workable link!
     
    Last edited: 16 Sep 2015
  18. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Yep, get that. The point is why do you need such levels of service?

    Instead of once a week, Wells to Chew is 60 times a week.
    Instead of twin a week, Chew to Weston is 30 times a week.

    I can't see why? Where's the demand coming from?
     
  19. THarris123

    THarris123 Established Member

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    I think you've read that wrong. From Freetoviews plan it states 2 hourly Weston to Chew and 2 hourly Chew to Weston.
     
  20. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    He's got an hourly service in place of the 683.

    Two hourly to Weston in place of the 134/5

    The only way I can see Chew Valley provision changing is if they get some LSTF style funding and can afford to have another vehicle. Even then, the most likely would be to bolster the 672 and serve Winford and Felton. Something like

    Bristol - Dundry - Chew Stoke - Chew Magna - Stanton Drew - Bishop Sutton
    Bristol - Felton - Winford - Chew Magna - Chew Stoke - West Harptree - Ubley - Blagdon

    However, you're still only looking at half a dozen journeys in total

    However, we've got to remember that the area is sparsely populated (only 5000 people in the entire valley) and very affluent. To put it in context, Keynsham is getting 700 new homes at Somervale; that's probably more than Chew Magna or Chew Stoke now have respectively and Keynsham alone has a current population of 16000.
     
    Last edited: 16 Sep 2015
  21. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    A good example is the 121 when it served the Airport it just about broke even and Felton had a 2 hourly service. The moment they cut it down the whole route died. Also the 20, 21,22 it used to manage a 10 min frequency!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    And be full until the 22 got axed then the whole service started to die! People in Henleaze got the 54. People in Westbury got the 1. The service completely collapsed!
     
  22. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    How do you know that the 121 "just about broke even"? It was operated under tender by Wessex and Bakers (can't recall when First ran it before Wessex) but indicates it probably marginal at best and a loss maker at worst.

    If you want a potted example of a route in similar territory, look at the 184. Essentially two routes - Bath to Norton and Radstock to Frome with a bit of through traffic across Norton and limited amount from Bath past Stratton. The Bath half is good territory whilst the Frome bit was always fairly marginal.

    With RBC money, it was increased from two hourly to hourly south of Norton. Yet it didn't appreciably grow in traffic because, quite simply, it runs through a very affluent, sparsely populated area especially once you hit Vobster, Mells and Great Elm. There's not the chimney pots to develop the patronage.

    Now, you'll point out that it went back to two hourly and that route was only being kept afloat by the MSN to Bath section as a cross subsidy and that it's tendered. True enough.

    However, I'd long advocated the 173 being doubled and chopping the 184. I may have not got it 100% right (I didn't pick a 174 Shepton link out) but there's more scope for attracting more people onto buses by developing the Wells to Bath corridor (via the 174) than trying to flog a dead horse like the 184.
     
  23. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    Thing is the 184 was 2 very different routes! Like the 121 in many ways. Neither had end/end traffic. Frome was always better served by the 267 anyway.

    But with the 121 the splitting it meant that Felton alone couldn't support the service (21).

    Yes my ideas admittedly would never be the busiest services, but there would be people wanting to travel to Bristol Airport, Wells, Bath and Bristol, and hopefully might gain a little bit of additional end/end traffic to make it slightly more viable.

    If I lived in Chew Magna at the moment I wouldn't get the bus simply because it's a) too infrequent, b) too many odd once a day/week routes so I'd never know if I was coming or going.
     
  24. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Be realistic. The whole of Chew Valley is 5000 people. Smaller than Paulton and far more scattered. There's not the passenger base for a network as you suggest. That's why it's all tendered and limited.

    As for end to end traffic.... The 672/683 mash up won't as it'll be a damn sight slower. Bath to Airport - there's not much anyway and you'll lose more from Keynsham than you'll ever gain from Marksbury.

    Look where's the big new developments. Keynsham to Bristol express? Paulton to Bath. That's where I think you could be creative and pragmatic. I could suggest others like bolstering the 231 and 272 though maybe they should've done that before Faresaver got there!

    Really, I think there's a lot of scope to do stuff like you said with Charlton Hayes.
     
  25. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    "The Chew Valley Area has a usual resident* population of about 9,983."
    http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/...ch-and-statistics/wiki/chew-valley-forum-area

    Also it has around 3.2% of people who use public transport compared to the national average of 16.4% so there is scope to try and shift peoples mode of transport.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    And my 139 wouldn't be much slower to the Airport maybe even faster!
     
  26. THarris123

    THarris123 Established Member

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    Hehehehehe, well done, good show.
     
  27. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    Thank you
     
  28. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Ok fair enough - will teach me to believe Wikipedia. ;) However, in Jules Winnfield (as opposed to June Whitfield) style, allow me to retort!

    The figure for public transport usage is not 16.4%. That's people who use it to TRAVEL TO WORK (the figure in Bristol is 10% BTW). The actual figure for public transport usage is much lower and for those who use the bus, the figure is actually 7% as quoted by the DFT's 2014 Transport Statistics

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/389592/tsgb-2014.pdf

    However I will also point out another nugget in the BaNES document....

    "Among the wards in the Chew Valley Area, in 2011 the proportion of households with no cars was extremely low. Chew Valley North (7.10%), being the ward with the greatest proportion, was far below the B&NES (21.98%) and England & Wales (25.63%) averages. "

    Other information about the affluence of the area....

    "There is very little deprivation in the Chew Valley area. All wards are within the least deprived 30% nationally and Chew Valley South falls within the least deprived 10%."

    ....probably explains why car ownership is high and public transport usage low! You might also want to look at this http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/def...p_options_display_-_bathampton_batheaston.pdf and the para RA1 - they might not want to have more buses as its part of the way they can limit development (which is something that Mendip District haven't sorted yet - see Norton St Fullup and Faulkland Fields Forever campaigns).

    As an aside, I didn't say your 139 would be slower. I said your 672/683 would be. What I said was that you were routeing the A4 from major traffic sources (e.g. Keynsham) to go via Chew Magna (which isn't).

    Again to paraphrase Jules, I'm tryin' real hard here.... There are some areas where there some areas that could do with some TLC and you can be innovative. Keynsham is growing, so is Paulton, as well as Charlton Hayes - that's where the innovation should come. So go on, innovate but remember where the chimney pots are, and why people make those journeys.
     
    Last edited: 17 Sep 2015
  29. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    The A4 would still exist as the 39!
     
  30. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Sorry, missed that in your expanding list of routes.

    However, point still applies. You're removing half the journeys from densely populated areas (like Keynsham and South Bristol) in favour of routeing it via villages of a few hundred people and that doesn't make sense.

    **EDIT - just realised that this 139 will run only every two hours so actually you're dropping the Bath to Bristol Airport service by 25%. Also, given the running time.... Bath to Chew Stoke is 45 mins and Winford to Airport is 10 mins. The 2.7 miles from Chew Stoke to Winford is 10 mins in a bus so 1h 05 compared to 1h 10 on the A4.
     
    Last edited: 17 Sep 2015
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