Because it allows it to leave Köln Hbf before the morning rush hour begins.
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Updated - Sweden: Trafikverket proposes Malmö-Brussels & Stockholm-Hamburg night trains, starting by 2022.8.1
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Because it allows it to leave Köln Hbf before the morning rush hour begins.
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StephenHunter
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Just stopping is far less disruptive than all the rigamarole of a termination operation, that can be done far easier in Aachen.
The difference between setting down passengers (3min?) and clearing the train entirely. (In the UK this has to be done before a train leaves for a siding, is it different in DE?)
AlbertBeale
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Though if sleeper passengers are getting off, that'll take a bit more than 3 minutes...
StephenHunter
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Not if they're up and ready.
jamesontheroad
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Just a reminder that Trafikverket should be publishing their final recommendations later this week.
Just a plug for the Swedish railway forum www.postvagnen.com, which is the discussion forum of the Svenska Järnvägsklubben, the Swedish Railway club. A lot of interesting discussions occur there, and Google Chrome's built-in translation function will help you understand it in most languages. There will likely be lots more discussion.
@JonasB I assume you might be active there as well?
Just a plug for the Swedish railway forum www.postvagnen.com, which is the discussion forum of the Svenska Järnvägsklubben, the Swedish Railway club. A lot of interesting discussions occur there, and Google Chrome's built-in translation function will help you understand it in most languages. There will likely be lots more discussion.
@JonasB I assume you might be active there as well?
Correct! And even if you don't speak Swedish(or Danish or Norwegian), feel free to join the discussion. English and German are widely understood in the forum. There are also active users who speak Czech, Dutch, Finnish and Japanese.
I can also recommend the news site https://jarnvagar.nu and https://www.jarnvag.net that is a great source of information about lines and vehicles.
The final report is here: https://www.trafikverket.se/om-oss/...ringsuppdraget-att-utreda-nattag-till-europa/ (I have not read it yet but the big change seems to be that they now propose Malmö-Köln-Brussels to start with.)
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sounds good, wonder if OBB would suggest integrating with there current Brussels service
StephenHunter
Established Member
We're not sure what the long-term plan is for that; the proposed Amsterdam-Vienna/Innsbruck service from December is silent on the issue. However, it's perfectly feasible and there is indeed historical precedent for this sort of thing, for the ex-Brussels sleeper to have portions heading in opposite directions after Cologne.
Certainly not impossible, and might actually be a good idea. One train from Amsterdam and one from Brussels, they meet in Köln, exchange some coaches, one train continue to Malmö and the other to Vienna.
current setup is the as followed
8 cars Brussels -> 4 cars Vienna and 4 Cars Innsbruck Wednesday and Sunday
10 cars Dusseldorf -> 5 cars Vienna and 5 Cars Innsbruck everyday except Wednesday and Sunday and will soon extend to Amsterdam
my thinking for future service
Wednesday,Friday and Sunday
9 cars Brussels -> 4 cars Vienna and 5 Cars Malmo
10 cars Amsterdam -> 5 cars Innsbruck and 5 Cars Malmo
Monday,Tuesday,Thursday and Saturday
9 cars Brussels -> 4 cars Innsbruck and 5 Cars Malmo
10 cars Amsterdam -> 5 cars Vienna and 5 Cars Malmo
StephenHunter
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What about the other direction?
i would say same consists but in reverse?
The booked formation for NJ420 according to Vagonweb is 5 (+1 as required) cars x2, and OeBB are suggesting running the full load to Amsterdam.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...austria-and-slovakia-croatia-sleepers.203595/
The two threads overlap considerably!
Not that this would prevent a Malmo-Amsterdam portion.
jamesontheroad
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Trafikverket has published the video of a 90-minute seminar (in English) on the plans for night trains from Sweden to Europe.
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Market share for train from Sweden to Europe is 1%, Air is 70%
21% of public found a night train concept very attractive, another 41% found quite attractive
For Sweden-Brussels
The idea I think is to use a PSO to fund night trains. Germany doesn't want to introduce a PSO or form an agreement with Sweden. Belgium has no prohibition on cross border PSOs, but isn't keen.
The reckon business travellers are happy for 12 hours, leisure 16 hours. From Stockholm to Kopenhagen is 5 hours, so that really limits business from Stockhom to Hamburg/Berlin. Gothenburg to Frankfurt, Malmo to Brussels/Amsterdam.
Desire timetables is departing Stockholm at 1650 (all stops), Stockholm at 1821 (express, change at Malmo), Connection from Oslo at 1615 (to board at Gothenburg at 1945). Malmo at 22:55, then either Amsterdam for 09:35 or Koln 0735, Brussels for 1000. No later than 10 as the first flight frmo Stockholm arrives at Brussels airport at 0915.
Another service planning running from Stockhome-Malmo-Hamburg-Berlin from 2021
Major capacity constraints on Malmo to Stockholm in Peak. Loco and crew changes at borders adds problems. From 2030 Kopenhagen will be in 12 hours of most of France, Germany, Benelux, Austria as well as Milan, Vienna, and London will be 9h, putting Stockholm within 12 hours of Frankburt, Prague, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels. Paris and London would be a upto 14 hours.
21% of public found a night train concept very attractive, another 41% found quite attractive
For Sweden-Brussels
The idea I think is to use a PSO to fund night trains. Germany doesn't want to introduce a PSO or form an agreement with Sweden. Belgium has no prohibition on cross border PSOs, but isn't keen.
The reckon business travellers are happy for 12 hours, leisure 16 hours. From Stockholm to Kopenhagen is 5 hours, so that really limits business from Stockhom to Hamburg/Berlin. Gothenburg to Frankfurt, Malmo to Brussels/Amsterdam.
Desire timetables is departing Stockholm at 1650 (all stops), Stockholm at 1821 (express, change at Malmo), Connection from Oslo at 1615 (to board at Gothenburg at 1945). Malmo at 22:55, then either Amsterdam for 09:35 or Koln 0735, Brussels for 1000. No later than 10 as the first flight frmo Stockholm arrives at Brussels airport at 0915.
Another service planning running from Stockhome-Malmo-Hamburg-Berlin from 2021
Major capacity constraints on Malmo to Stockholm in Peak. Loco and crew changes at borders adds problems. From 2030 Kopenhagen will be in 12 hours of most of France, Germany, Benelux, Austria as well as Milan, Vienna, and London will be 9h, putting Stockholm within 12 hours of Frankburt, Prague, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels. Paris and London would be a upto 14 hours.
Interesting that they've opted to start the service from Stockholm after all, despite the lengthy journey, and to serve Göteborg (and Oslo). I would be intrigued to see their preferred timetable northbound - it will need an arrival in Stockholm late morning which means being at Malmö well before 0600. Not very attractive for Copenhagen either, if they want DSB onside.
I didn't have time to watch it, but I got the feeling these are the options - specifically what they would like. Upon meeting reality it felt like nothing is going to happen.
That 4 hour trip to do 380 miles from Stockholm to Malmo really impacts the options.
That 4 hour trip to do 380 miles from Stockholm to Malmo really impacts the options.
43096
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Time for Siemens to come up with a SE-DK-DE-NL-BE country package for the Vectron, then, to solve the loco change problem.
the Danish already have the class EG that is a 25Kv/15Kv Euro sprinter and Siemens already sell a Quad system Eurospinter(ES 64 U4) and Vectron(Multisystem)
43096
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Siemens no longer sell the EuroSprinter: Vectron is their locomotive platform. My point was around a country setup for the Vectron that would allow through running from Sweden to Amsterdam/Brussels, which doesn’t exist (yet). There’s more to it than voltages: there are also different signalling and pantograph configurations, for example.
fair point
Vectron orders for all nations along the route apart from Belgium so all required subsystems exist just need combining
also would need Multi system certification in Sweden as so far only the AC version has certification there (all there neighbours and neighbours's neighbours who share same Rail gauge use AC so no need for DC subsystems to be certified)
43096
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There is a Belgium country package available: the latest deliveries for BLS and ÖBB have it. Denmark isn’t authorised yet as far as I know, but obviously will be soon (on AC at least) for the 42 locos DSB has on order.
jamesontheroad
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It is explained in the first half hour of the video that originating the Trafikverket-procured night train (PSO or otherwise) in Stockholm is a problem for two reasons: it will be hard to get paths out/in Stockholm in the busiest hours of the day, and (intriguingly) it might conflict with Snälltåget’s plans to operate a commercial service from Stockholm-Berlin via Copenhagen and Hamburg.
Snälltåget have not publicly announced what they plan to do now that the train ferry from Trelleborg to Sassnitz is gone. However they already have train paths for an intercity service that leaves Stockholm around 16:30 and arrives in Malmö 21:30. The equivalent morning train leaves Malmö at 09:30 and gets to Stockholm around 14:00.
If I were Snälltåget, I’d put all the money on red and hook a rake of couchettes for Hamburg and Berlin onto the existing pair of Stockholm/Malmö trains, and detach/attach them in Malmö. No extra paths needed, and it would still arrive in Malmö in time for a reasonable overnight departure towards Germany.
Trafikverket have also said that Stockholm-Brussels is too long a journey to be commercially attractive for business travellers. But there’s nothing Trafikverket can do about the geographical location of Stockholm, and it’s the biggest population centre in the country. There will be people in Stockholm who want to take a night train to continental Europe, and they’ll have to take the train to Malmö anyway.
Snälltåget have a wonderful “Krog” (pub) style dining car. I have no problem boarding at 16:30 in Stockholm and travelling all the way to Berlin. Maybe that will demonstrate the possibility of a Trafikverket-supported sleeper also starting there instead of Malmö.
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A multi-Voltage/Country Loco would solve that
changing locos between Sweden and Denmark would be hell as no station at the voltage change boundary and Signalling changes as a different point (i believe if going Denmark -> Sweden Signalling changes just before the Bridge and Voltage changes Just after)
jamesontheroad
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There's also a linguistic matter - Snälltåget has campaigned on this for some time. They would like English to become lingua franca of signalling systems since, under the current systems, a driver from Malmö to Hamburg needs to speak Swedish, Danish and German in order to communicate with signallers. Not impossible, but remember that global Air Traffic Control has long accepted English as the operating language to avoid any chance of misunderstanding.
StephenHunter
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Ironically, the regulating body that would enforce that - the UIC - has a French name and the terms for the carriages in this proposed train i.e. Wagons-Lits and couchettes are French...
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