Upgrades to Aylesbury - Princes Risborough branch

[NickBucks]

This thread has been split from The future for Chiltern's Class 121 "bubble car" units?

No; they only operate on what is basically a Beeching escapee country branch line.

People forget just how rural Bucks is. Much more so than much of Northernland, say.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes and were it not for HS2 it would remain as such.

The "Beeching escapee country branch line" will be upgraded in due course to enable services to run London Marylebone> High Wycombe> Aylesbury> Milton Keynes services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes and were it not for HS2 it would remain as such.

The "Beeching escapee country branch line" will be upgraded in due course to enable services to run London Marylebone> High Wycombe> Aylesbury> Milton Keynes services.

Didn't know they were going to run them that way, I'd always assumed via Amersham. But I suppose there's precedent - its situation is not dissimilar to Oxford-Bicester.

I think you mean EWR rather than HS2 though.

 

[The Planner]

Yes and were it not for HS2 it would remain as such.

The "Beeching escapee country branch line" will be upgraded in due course to enable services to run London Marylebone> High Wycombe> Aylesbury> Milton Keynes services.

Depends on your idea of upgraded and due course, nothing major will happen and the only new thing is likely to be the bridfe over HS2.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Didn't know they were going to run them that way, I'd always assumed via Amersham. But I suppose there's precedent - its situation is not dissimilar to Oxford-Bicester.

I think you mean EWR rather than HS2 though.

I had assumed the same, as it seems logical to go via Amersham.

Apparently the Risboro route will be upgraded for higher speed, but there's very little being done to twin the route as it's just not physically possible in places. But I do recall some passing loops being added somewhere along the route, and then some fancy timetabling to make the most of it.

I can only assume not going via Amersham is due to the existing route being fairly busy, what with sharing with LU, and the requirement for tripcocks which probably complicates matters a little.

Then again there's a level crossing to contend with, and the route is pretty winding, but apparently that's the option chosen! Obviously smarter people than I know more!

 

[67018]

I had assumed the same, as it seems logical to go via Amersham.

Apparently the Risboro route will be upgraded for higher speed, but there's very little being done to twin the route as it's just not physically possible in places. But I do recall some passing loops being added somewhere along the route, and then some fancy timetabling to make the most of it.

I can only assume not going via Amersham is due to the existing route being fairly busy, what with sharing with LU, and the requirement for tripcocks which probably complicates matters a little.

Then again there's a level crossing to contend with, and the route is pretty winding, but apparently that's the option chosen! Obviously smarter people than I know more!

IIRC One of the reasons for local political support for this part of the route was the prospect of improving cross-Buckinghamshire links between High Wycombe/Aylesbury and Milton Keynes. Especially as road connections aren't great.

With some upgrading on the branch would it also be faster that way? - given the ability to run on the main line as far as Princes Risborough.

 

[The Planner]

E-W timetable doesn't require anything much between Risborough and Aylesbury. It won't be doubled or have any loops any time soon.

 

[KingDaveRa]

IIRC One of the reasons for local political support for this part of the route was the prospect of improving cross-Buckinghamshire links between High Wycombe/Aylesbury and Milton Keynes. Especially as road connections aren't great.

With some upgrading on the branch would it also be faster that way? - given the ability to run on the main line as far as Princes Risborough.

That would be a good reason then. Aylesbury to Wycombe is 'challenging' by road these days although the 300 bus runs a very frequent service now.

I'm not sure what the line speed is of the branch, but I know it's pretty low, so any improvement will help no end. The daily Bin Liner trains would benefit from that speed increase too, I'd imagine.

 

[t_star2001uk]

I'm not sure what the line speed is of the branch, but I know it's pretty low, so any improvement will help no end. The daily Bin Liner trains would benefit from that speed increase too, I'd imagine.

15 mph from the loop at Princes Risboro rising to 40 mph, 20 mph at Marsh Lane crossing then back to 40 mph and 15 mph on the exit in to Aylesbury.

 

[KingDaveRa]

15 mph from the loop at Princes Risboro rising to 40 mph, 20 mph at Marsh Lane crossing then back to 40 mph and 15 mph on the exit in to Aylesbury.

So would it be sensible to assume it going up to 60mph perhaps?

 

[t_star2001uk]

A speed upgrade would be good. Unfortunately before this could happen, there are a large number of foot crossings to be contended with.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm fairly surprised that people were not aware of the proposed extension of the Aylesbury via High Wycombe service to Milton Keynes, as this has been regularly mentioned in the long term discussions of EWR, and has been a standard feature of the EWR project's timetable proposals/aspirations for 5 or 6 years now. Presume as mentioned earlier they are going where they expect the major passenger flows might be, but it is probably assessed in one of the early EWR business cases - if only they were still online...

 

[NickBucks]

The following update from May 2016 appears on the East-West website.

You will see that the original plan which allowed for a line speed of 80mph with passing loops is now much watered down

http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Info-Sheet-PR-Ayl-May-2016.pdf

Information Sheet Princes Risborough – Aylesbury May 2016 .

Introduction

East West Rail (EWR) aims to establish a strategic railway connecting East Anglia with Central, Southern and Western England. The proposed East West Rail route can be broken down into three sections: Western, Central and Eastern.

East West Rail Western Section

The work has been broken down into two separate phases.

Phase 1

Work between the new Oxford Parkway station and Bicester Village has been completed and services began operating on 26th October 2015. Work between Oxford and Oxford Parkway is due for completion by December 2016 with services commencing shortly afterwards.

Phase 2

The East West Rail Western Section Phase 2 (EWR2) project involves the upgrade and reconstruction of existing and mothballed sections of line linking Bedford-Bicester and Milton Keynes-Princes Risborough.

This will allow passenger and freight services to run between Bedford and Bicester and between Milton Keynes and London via Aylesbury.

Consultation

Consultation on EWR2 was carried out in September/October 2015 and our original plans involved substantial work to allow an increased line speed of 80mph along the Princes Risborough – Aylesbury line. However, further development of timetable modelling has concluded that the line speed improvements are not now required to achieve the planned service pattern of one hourly passenger train (in each direction) and capacitiy for freight trains. As a result of this it is no longer proposed to increase the line speed along the route and therefore the associated construction work is no longer required. EWR2’s likely scope of work involves extending the platforms at Little Kimble, Monks Risborough and Princes Risborough to allow longer four car trains to operate and the EWR2 project will continue to develop options for the closure of Marsh Lane level crossing. We are also working closely with HS2 to,as best practicable, integrate the projects where they overlap.

Longer Term Plan

Network Rail’s Long Term Planning would be to deliver further capacity improvements along the line, which could require full double tracking. The line could also be a candidate for electrification. These plans will be included in Network Rail’s Route Study document to be published May 2016 and will be subject to government and industry consultation. Planning for this would not be envisaged before the mid 2020’s.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm fairly surprised that people were not aware of the proposed extension of the Aylesbury via High Wycombe service to Milton Keynes, as this has been regularly mentioned in the long term discussions of EWR, and has been a standard feature of the EWR project's timetable proposals/aspirations for 5 or 6 years now. Presume as mentioned earlier they are going where they expect the major passenger flows might be, but it is probably assessed in one of the early EWR business cases - if only they were still online...

I can definitely foresee High Wycombe-MK bringing a decent flow of passengers (more so than routeing via Amersham would). Plus some rail-heading from the Thames Valley for MK-bound passengers, who currently have a faff-y journey into and out of London.

 

[route:oxford]

15 mph from the loop at Princes Risboro rising to 40 mph, 20 mph at Marsh Lane crossing then back to 40 mph and 15 mph on the exit in to Aylesbury.

No matter what happens with the route, the Marsh Lane crossing needs to be sorted out - it has the most bizarre layout.

 

[KingDaveRa]

The following update from May 2016 appears on the East-West website.

You will see that the original plan which allowed for a line speed of 80mph with passing loops is now much watered down

http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Info-Sheet-PR-Ayl-May-2016.pdf

Seems fair to me. If they can do it without making major modifications, it saves a load of money, and increases the speed to completion. Plus they have a future option to increase linespeed and capacity, albeit at a cost, should there be a need.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One other issue that affects timetabling of trains to/from the branch is that access at the Princes Risborough end is only possible from Platform 1 (the Bay) or 2 (Up Loop), with a 25mph limit over the crossover from the Down Main to the Loop and through Platform 2 (compared to 40mph for Up trains through Platform 2).

 

[HowardGWR]

15 mph from the loop at Princes Risboro rising to 40 mph, 20 mph at Marsh Lane crossing then back to 40 mph and 15 mph on the exit in to Aylesbury.

No wonder they only need a class 121. If I were a cartoonist, I would picture a stage coach overtaking it with the herald blowing a raspberry at the glum class 121 receding in the background.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Seems fair to me. If they can do it without making major modifications, it saves a load of money, and increases the speed to completion. Plus they have a future option to increase linespeed and capacity, albeit at a cost, should there be a need.

More or less my thoughts - although the ultimate, final cost is (as usual) likely to be more in the long run, as they will no doubt take machinery away, only to have to bring it back 3-4-5 years in the future to finish the job off.

 

[berneyarms]

No matter what happens with the route, the Marsh Lane crossing needs to be sorted out - it has the most bizarre layout.

For those of us unfamiliar with it, could you elaborate?

 

[KingDaveRa]

For those of us unfamiliar with it, could you elaborate?

You can see it here:
https://goo.gl/maps/VD5cbh1H53J2

The approach from Stoke Mandeville side is very odd as you're basically doing a right turn across the track.

The line is being realigned a little closer into Aylesbury as part of HS2.

 

[work-traveller]

The line is being realigned a little closer into Aylesbury as part of HS2.

The HS2 proposals tie-in before the crossing, so leaving it in place (bottom of plan, towards the right):

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/529511/C222-ATK-CV-DPP-020-000006-FPD.pdf

 

[NickBucks]

The HS2 proposals tie-in before the crossing, so leaving it in place (bottom of plan, towards the right):

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/529511/C222-ATK-CV-DPP-020-000006-FPD.pdf

As per the plan Marsh Lane is to be stopped up. The half barrier level crossing disappears as part of the new arrangements for HS2 & the Stoke Mandeville by pass. I doubt this will speed matters up much given the very limited improvements to the rest of the line.

 

[work-traveller]

As per the plan Marsh Lane is to be stopped up. The half barrier level crossing disappears as part of the new arrangements for HS2 & the Stoke Mandeville by pass. I doubt this will speed matters up much given the very limited improvements to the rest of the line.

What you say is likely to be the end situation, albeit it's not agreed yet.

 

[ironstone11]

As per the plan Marsh Lane is to be stopped up. The half barrier level crossing disappears as part of the new arrangements for HS2 & the Stoke Mandeville by pass.

That is not how I read it. Marsh lane is stopped up where is crosses HS2.
However, Marsh Lane going south towards the crossing is still accessible from the Stoke Mandeville bypass.

The crossing is worse than the map and Google Earth makes it appear because the track is raised relative to the roads on both sides. Like going over a hump back bridge. Not a good place to mess up a hill start!