That's not correct. Upminster to Seascale Off-Peak Return takes restriction code 5F, which prohibits break of journey on the outward leg. See here.Yepp, that is perfectly allowed
Yes - as shown in the ticket restriction text on this page:Please can someone confirm that it is acceptable to break overnight at Wigan the outward journey of an Upminster to Seascale off peak return, provided the journey is resumed by 12.00 on the second day.
Outward portions of Anytime Returns (SORs) all now give you five days to complete this leg of the journey. You can break it as often as you want.SprinterMan said:I think an ATW guard told me that with a month return ticket you have either 3 or 5 days to complete your outward journey, and can break it as often as you want.
It depends on the fare; there is more than one return fare that allows a return journey within one month!I think an ATW guard told me that with a month return ticket you have either 3 or 5 days to complete your outward journey, and can break it as often as you want.
Please can someone confirm that it is acceptable to break overnight at Wigan the outward journey of an Upminster to Seascale off peak return, provided the journey is resumed by 12.00 on the second day.
Essexman, I'm sorry you've been given contradictory information, with both experts quoting the same document in aid of their opinion. This shows just how complex fares restrictions are.
Unfortunately under privatisation and delay attribution, holding one service for another TOC (or even the same company's services) is unlikely and very rarely happens. Each TOC will be out to preserve itself so even though 3 minutes doesn't seem long, the staff would have to explain why they were delayed, and why this has potentially cost the company money.due to delay to TPE train and Northern choosing not to hold their train for 3 minutes.
Common sense does happen sometimes such as today the 1145 from York to Liverpool made up time due to Northern trains being held at Church Fenton and Guide Bridge. Sadly this common sense and overall good of the railway approach does not always occur, as you say, but it's good when it doesUnfortunately under privatisation and delay attribution, holding one service for another TOC (or even the same company's services) is unlikely and very rarely happens.
That'll be the signallers, who sometimes do seem to have common sense to hold local stoppers for a few minutes to allow a express to pass. However, it probably would take a lot of effort or severe disruption for a guard of TOC A to phone up his control, for control to ask TOC B's control to hold their service for a late running train.Common sense does happen sometimes such as today the 1145 from York to Liverpool made up time due to Northern trains being held at Church Fenton and Guide Bridge. Sadly this common sense and overall good of the railway approach does not always occur, as you say, but it's good when it does
Not sure what you've said is totally correct, as the only services north of Barrow on the Cumbrian Coast line are Northern-operated. Holding trains on the same TOC is more common, but again doesn't happen all the time.Interestingly though the next day Northern held their Leeds train at Carlise for 3 minutes so those changing from the late running train from Barrow could catch it. My assumption was that they didn't hold the connection at Barrow, as despite the guard having phoned through to say he had 12 passengers for it, Northern could send the bill for taxis & compensation to TPE. Had they not held the Leeds train however they would have been responsible for costs as it was their own train that was late.
Right I see what you mean. However I don't think it would be possible for Northern to 'pass on' the delay costs in this way, as it would probably go down as Northern's fault if they didn't leave on time.What I'm saying is that Northern didn't hold their train at Barrow when the delay was down to TPE, but they did the next day at Carlisle (to Leeds) when the delay was down to their own train (from Barrow). Similar number of passengers affected and time need to hold (3 minutes) but it seems suspicious that when they could pass on the costs to TPE they didn't wait.
Northern won't care about those costs, as they are incurred by TPE.But if Northern had waited 3 minutes there would have been no costs - no taxis or compensation. And they have passed on the costs because they forwarded my letter to TPE who said they would pay compensation - full refund - until they found ticket was dated a day earlier.
TPE have replied and said the ticket wasn't valid for overnight break of journey, so no compensation.Actually reason for asking was that I've already made the journey with overnight break in Wigan, but missed connection at Barrow due to delay to TPE train and Northern choosing not to hold their train for 3 minutes. Complaint to Northern was forwarded do TPE who said they would send refund but ticket I'd provided wasn't valid.
On strength of first reply (and what I thought was correct - or I wouldn't have broken the journey) I've posted letter to TPE telling them of break of journey and that ticket dated a day before travel on to Seascale was valid. I'll post what they reply.
Incidentally on the second day of travel the ticket was checked by Virgin, TPE & Northern and none commented that it wasn't valid for the following day.
I arrived at Wigan after the last departure that gives same day arrival in Seascale (15.58).If you cannot complete your journey on the first day, it is not considered a break of journey to stay in overnight accommodation. This is in accordance with NRCoC Condition 16(ii).
Ah! Then it is probable that you did not break your journey at all.I arrived at Wigan after the last departure that gives same day arrival in Seascale (15.58).
National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:C Use of tickets
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket. ...
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.
TPE are correct to say that break of journey is not allowed on the outward leg of this journey. The person dealing with your enquiry probably did not realise that it was necessary to "stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day". That is not a break of journey.Can I therefore challenge TPE who said overnight break of journey not allowed?
No. If it is necessary to "stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day", the passenger chooses where to stay overnight, not the train company.would I have had to break at Barrow - ie as far as I could get in the day?).
I have a lot of sympathy with the people who answer these calls for National Rail Enquires. An Upminster - Seascale Off-Peak Return has Validity Code 5F, which includes the sentence "No Break of Journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains". It is not surprising therefore that staff wrongly assume that changing trains is one of the ways one can break a journey. It is not. The problem is caused by the chronic lack of knowledge and skill of the person who wrote the Validity Code.I've called National Rail Enquires. They initially said break of journey allowed but not overnight, but then checked and said only allowed to change trains.
An explanation of ticket validities and overnight stays is promised in RAIL 709.Barry Doe in RAIL 708 said:[A] reader was told by TransPennine Express that he should not have broken his journey overnight between Essex and Barrow-in-Furness.
When he complained to TPE, its 'Customer Relations Advisor' told him that his ticket did not allow break of outward journey, and that even if it did, a break overnight is only allowed if the journey cannot be completed in time, and furthermore this was only after delays, and that customers must always set out early enough to complete a journey in a day.
All this is total rubbish.