Upminster - Seascale

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Essexman

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Please can someone confirm that it is acceptable to break overnight at Wigan the outward journey of an Upminster to Seascale off peak return, provided the journey is resumed by 12.00 on the second day.

Thanks
 
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Indigo2

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Yepp, that is perfectly allowed :)
Adam :D
That's not correct. Upminster to Seascale Off-Peak Return takes restriction code 5F, which prohibits break of journey on the outward leg. See here.

The accepted wisdom on this though is that you *can* stop overnight if you leave late enough that it's not possible to complete your journey in the same day, and if you resume your journey again on the very first train possible the next morning.
 

calc7

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Please can someone confirm that it is acceptable to break overnight at Wigan the outward journey of an Upminster to Seascale off peak return, provided the journey is resumed by 12.00 on the second day.

Thanks
Yes - as shown in the ticket restriction text on this page:

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.


(Quite clearly, Wigan is on a permitted route for the flow)

SprinterMan said:
I think an ATW guard told me that with a month return ticket you have either 3 or 5 days to complete your outward journey, and can break it as often as you want.
Outward portions of Anytime Returns (SORs) all now give you five days to complete this leg of the journey. You can break it as often as you want.
Do note that the Essexman is asking about the Off-Peak Return (SVR), whose ability to continue the outward journey on the second day after an overnight break is often unknown, even amongst some ticketing staff.
 

Indigo2

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I think an ATW guard told me that with a month return ticket you have either 3 or 5 days to complete your outward journey, and can break it as often as you want.

Adam :D
It depends on the fare; there is more than one return fare that allows a return journey within one month!

With an Anytime Return you have 5 days to complete the outward journey and unlimited break of journey is allowed. With an Off-Peak Return you have only 2 days, you *must* commence the journey on the first day, and if break of journey isn't allowed you may only stop overnight if it's not possible to complete the journey in one day and you resume on the first train of the morning (that doesn't count as break of journey).

Otherwise you can resume at any time on the second day; the "before 12:00" restriction doesn't apply any more since last October.
 

John @ home

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Please can someone confirm that it is acceptable to break overnight at Wigan the outward journey of an Upminster to Seascale off peak return, provided the journey is resumed by 12.00 on the second day.
Upminster to Seascale Off-Peak Return takes restriction code 5F, which prohibits break of journey on the outward leg. See here.
Essexman, I'm sorry you've been given contradictory information, with both experts quoting the same document in aid of their opinion. This shows just how complex fares restrictions are.

In this instance, I agree with Indigo2 that, unfortunately, Validity Code 5F prohibits break the outward leg of the journey.

brfares.com is an unofficial web site. It presents the information in a much more user-friendly way, but in this instance it does not make it clear that the General Conditions for this Ticket Type are subordinate to the Specific Restrictions for this Journey. National Rail Enquiries' version of Validity Code 5F makes it clear that there is "No Break of Journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains".

The lesson I have learned from this incident is that it's usually better to link to the National Rail Enquiries' version of a Validity Code on this forum.

Essexman, if you can provide your proposed dates and times of travel, one of us should be able to suggest an appropriate combination of valid tickets for your journey.
 

calc7

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Apologies - I did not read the actual text for 5F itself as I assumed the OP already had ascertained BoJ is permitted, and was actually questioning whether overnight BoJ was permitted (as a sub-type of BoJ).
 

SprinterMan

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Oh god, really sorry guys.
I thought I was right.
Sorry Essexman, I was going off what that guard told me. I thought an off-peak return was an off-peak return. I should have checked. Really sorry. :(
I hope I didn't ruin your travel plans.
Adam :(
 

Essexman

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Actually reason for asking was that I've already made the journey with overnight break in Wigan, but missed connection at Barrow due to delay to TPE train and Northern choosing not to hold their train for 3 minutes. Complaint to Northern was forwarded do TPE who said they would send refund but ticket I'd provided wasn't valid.

On strength of first reply (and what I thought was correct - or I wouldn't have broken the journey) I've posted letter to TPE telling them of break of journey and that ticket dated a day before travel on to Seascale was valid. I'll post what they reply.

Incidentally on the second day of travel the ticket was checked by Virgin, TPE & Northern and none commented that it wasn't valid for the following day.
 

142094

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due to delay to TPE train and Northern choosing not to hold their train for 3 minutes.
Unfortunately under privatisation and delay attribution, holding one service for another TOC (or even the same company's services) is unlikely and very rarely happens. Each TOC will be out to preserve itself so even though 3 minutes doesn't seem long, the staff would have to explain why they were delayed, and why this has potentially cost the company money.
 

yorkie

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The delay should go to TPE as it was their train that was delayed.

In my experience, TPE generally initially allocate someone unknowledgable to reply to queries/complaints, causing the answer to often be incorrect. You need to persevere and insist that the complaint is passed on to a manager. Eventually, you'll get someone who is intelligent enough to respond and apologise for the incorrect information.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unfortunately under privatisation and delay attribution, holding one service for another TOC (or even the same company's services) is unlikely and very rarely happens.
Common sense does happen sometimes such as today the 1145 from York to Liverpool made up time due to Northern trains being held at Church Fenton and Guide Bridge. Sadly this common sense and overall good of the railway approach does not always occur, as you say, but it's good when it does :)
 

Essexman

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Indeed - another example of privitisation being worse rather than better for the customer.

Northern didn't hold the train although it could easily have made up 3 minutes - the timetable allows 16 minutes from Dalston to Carlisle, but only 8 in the other direction.

Interestingly though the next day Northern held their Leeds train at Carlise for 3 minutes so those changing from the late running train from Barrow could catch it. My assumption was that they didn't hold the connection at Barrow, as despite the guard having phoned through to say he had 12 passengers for it, Northern could send the bill for taxis & compensation to TPE. Had they not held the Leeds train however they would have been responsible for costs as it was their own train that was late.
 

142094

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Common sense does happen sometimes such as today the 1145 from York to Liverpool made up time due to Northern trains being held at Church Fenton and Guide Bridge. Sadly this common sense and overall good of the railway approach does not always occur, as you say, but it's good when it does :)
That'll be the signallers, who sometimes do seem to have common sense to hold local stoppers for a few minutes to allow a express to pass. However, it probably would take a lot of effort or severe disruption for a guard of TOC A to phone up his control, for control to ask TOC B's control to hold their service for a late running train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interestingly though the next day Northern held their Leeds train at Carlise for 3 minutes so those changing from the late running train from Barrow could catch it. My assumption was that they didn't hold the connection at Barrow, as despite the guard having phoned through to say he had 12 passengers for it, Northern could send the bill for taxis & compensation to TPE. Had they not held the Leeds train however they would have been responsible for costs as it was their own train that was late.
Not sure what you've said is totally correct, as the only services north of Barrow on the Cumbrian Coast line are Northern-operated. Holding trains on the same TOC is more common, but again doesn't happen all the time.
 

Essexman

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What I'm saying is that Northern didn't hold their train at Barrow when the delay was down to TPE, but they did the next day at Carlisle (to Leeds) when the delay was down to their own train (from Barrow). Similar number of passengers affected and time need to hold (3 minutes) but it seems suspicious that when they could pass on the costs to TPE they didn't wait.
 

142094

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What I'm saying is that Northern didn't hold their train at Barrow when the delay was down to TPE, but they did the next day at Carlisle (to Leeds) when the delay was down to their own train (from Barrow). Similar number of passengers affected and time need to hold (3 minutes) but it seems suspicious that when they could pass on the costs to TPE they didn't wait.
Right I see what you mean. However I don't think it would be possible for Northern to 'pass on' the delay costs in this way, as it would probably go down as Northern's fault if they didn't leave on time.
 

Essexman

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But if Northern had waited 3 minutes there would have been no costs - no taxis or compensation. And they have passed on the costs because they forwarded my letter to TPE who said they would pay compensation - full refund - until they found ticket was dated a day earlier.
 

142094

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I don't think you understand what happens with delay attribution. Your TPE train was delayed, so TPE had to pay compensation, as you missed your connection. TPE will also have to make a payment to Network Rail as they ran a late service. Now if Northern chose to delay their service by three minutes, they could potentially lose their pathings further up the Cumbrian Coast, causing knock on delays. It would then be Northern who would have to pay compensation to their passengers, and also to Network Rail and other TOCs who have been affected.
 

yorkie

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But if Northern had waited 3 minutes there would have been no costs - no taxis or compensation. And they have passed on the costs because they forwarded my letter to TPE who said they would pay compensation - full refund - until they found ticket was dated a day earlier.
Northern won't care about those costs, as they are incurred by TPE.

Admittedly the franchises exist in order to provide a public service, however the fact is that each franchise holder is out to make money, and sometimes that involves acting in a way that does not benefit passengers. If Northern lose out financially by waiting, then they will not wait.

If you write to Northern over a delay to a TPE train, then of course they will forward the request to TPE. It is best to send the claim to the company whose train(s) were late. In the event of multiple delays it would normally be to the first TOC that initially delayed you, though it depends on the exact circumstances.
 

Essexman

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Actually reason for asking was that I've already made the journey with overnight break in Wigan, but missed connection at Barrow due to delay to TPE train and Northern choosing not to hold their train for 3 minutes. Complaint to Northern was forwarded do TPE who said they would send refund but ticket I'd provided wasn't valid.

On strength of first reply (and what I thought was correct - or I wouldn't have broken the journey) I've posted letter to TPE telling them of break of journey and that ticket dated a day before travel on to Seascale was valid. I'll post what they reply.

Incidentally on the second day of travel the ticket was checked by Virgin, TPE & Northern and none commented that it wasn't valid for the following day.
TPE have replied and said the ticket wasn't valid for overnight break of journey, so no compensation.

How passengers are supposed to know what is & isn't valid in today's ridiculously complicated system I've no idea. I assumed it was OK to break overnight as advice from National Rail Enquiries a couple of months previous was that I could break an off-peak return to Llanwrytd overnight at Bristol. So not only do we have some ticket types where break is allowed and others where it isn't, but it varies between the same ticket type depending on journey. If the experts on here don't always know how do the rest of us have a hope?
 

bb21

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If you cannot complete your journey on the first day, it is not considered a break of journey to stay in overnight accommodation. This is in accordance with NRCoC Condition 16(ii).
 

Essexman

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If you cannot complete your journey on the first day, it is not considered a break of journey to stay in overnight accommodation. This is in accordance with NRCoC Condition 16(ii).
I arrived at Wigan after the last departure that gives same day arrival in Seascale (15.58).
To reach Seascale on the same day I would have had to left Upminster at latest 12.02.

Can I therefore challenge TPE who said overnight break of journey not allowed? (or would I have had to break at Barrow - ie as far as I could get in the day?).

Incidentally I've called National Rail Enquires. They initially said break of journey allowed but not overnight, but then checked and said only allowed to change trains.
 

John @ home

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I arrived at Wigan after the last departure that gives same day arrival in Seascale (15.58).
Ah! Then it is probable that you did not break your journey at all.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
C Use of tickets

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket. ...

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
Can I therefore challenge TPE who said overnight break of journey not allowed?
TPE are correct to say that break of journey is not allowed on the outward leg of this journey. The person dealing with your enquiry probably did not realise that it was necessary to "stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day". That is not a break of journey.
would I have had to break at Barrow - ie as far as I could get in the day?).
No. If it is necessary to "stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day", the passenger chooses where to stay overnight, not the train company.

You should go back to TPE and explain that you now realise that you did not break your journey. TPE will want to lknow exactly which trains you used from Upminster to Seascale. If you have any difficulty remembering the details, send me a PM and I'll calculate this. When you contact TPE, it may also be helpful to quote Condition 16 above.
I've called National Rail Enquires. They initially said break of journey allowed but not overnight, but then checked and said only allowed to change trains.
I have a lot of sympathy with the people who answer these calls for National Rail Enquires. An Upminster - Seascale Off-Peak Return has Validity Code 5F, which includes the sentence "No Break of Journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains". It is not surprising therefore that staff wrongly assume that changing trains is one of the ways one can break a journey. It is not. The problem is caused by the chronic lack of knowledge and skill of the person who wrote the Validity Code.
 

General Zod

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Would it have been better to avoid the term " break of journey " when discussing the matter with TPE ? Obviously it has led to much ambiguity with TPE digging in their heels and refusing to acknowledge OP's journey curtailment as an "over night stay break" ( on account of not being able to complete the journey in one day) and classifying the trip as a "break of journey" in the literal sense.
 

Essexman

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I've had a reply from TPE. They say that 'unless you missed the last connection from Wigan to Seascale on 15 May as a result of disruption, the outward portion of your ticket was not valid to travel on the following day'.

However 'to resolve the matter' they have sent me a voucher for £38.80, equivalent to my journey made on 16 May.

I think I'll settle for this.
 

John @ home

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The Fare Dealer tells the story of this, or an almost identical, incident.
Barry Doe in RAIL 708 said:
[A] reader was told by TransPennine Express that he should not have broken his journey overnight between Essex and Barrow-in-Furness.

When he complained to TPE, its 'Customer Relations Advisor' told him that his ticket did not allow break of outward journey, and that even if it did, a break overnight is only allowed if the journey cannot be completed in time, and furthermore this was only after delays, and that customers must always set out early enough to complete a journey in a day.

All this is total rubbish.
An explanation of ticket validities and overnight stays is promised in RAIL 709.
 
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