Use of Endorsement box on back of ticket

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by gray1404, 19 May 2015.

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  1. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Does anyone have an examples - scans of the back of tickets - on which the Endorsements box has actually been used. What is the format this is normally done?

    I do get the impression that many staff do not like doing this and will simply not do so as it ties them to something. I had a delay at MKC 2 weeks ago in that my Advance booked train was cancelled and I had 2 more connections on that. The booking office gladly gave me the times of the new trains and a delay repay form. They would not endorse my ticket though and said to just explain to the guard about the delay.

    As many of you will know, I split ticket a lot using a ticket on Mereyrail (my concession travel pass issued by the PTE) and an Advance ticket on either LM or TPE. Getting a member of Merseyrail staff to endorse the back of my Advance ticket (I've asked both a ME guard gateline when I've just got off the train or the LPY booking office) to state the ME from FBY-LPY was delayed is like asking for gold dust! Had similar problems when I've done via LIV onto a VT Advance.

    What really annoyed me is when the guard says "you should have got the booking office/station staff to endorse your ticket". Am I right in saying you are actually under no duty to even bother for them to endorse your ticket. Train data is logged anyway so they can call control to check (assuming they'll be told correct information) and can be bothered.

    They either need to start pro-actively using these endorsement boxes or remove them.
     
  2. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    I do. Banbury Landslip meant my booked VT wasn't running and XC were just being awkward despite ticket acceptance being in place!
     

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  3. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    I was on a XC train from Peterborough to Leicester last Saturday and a passenger sat near to me had the wrong portion of their ticket incorrectly stamped by the guard.

    The guard immediately realised his mistake, told the passenger what had happened and wrote something in the endorsements box.
     
  4. alxndr

    alxndr Member

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    Not strictly an endorsement I guess, it was written in response to someone manning a ticket barrier not realising that peak time restrictions hand been lifted and thus preventing me passing through at LST. Unfortunately by the time I got through the queue, got it signed and back to the gate line my train had left anyway and I was stuck with the stopping service.

    [​IMG]

    The vast majority of my tickets, like the above, don't have endorsement boxes, just a blank space. I probably have less than 10 which do have the box.
     
  5. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I hope you claimed Delay Repay if sufficiently delayed as a result.
     
  6. alxndr

    alxndr Member

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    I didn't pay for the ticket, made no difference to me. I probably end up travelling short and getting home sooner anyway.
     
  7. Hyphen

    Hyphen Member

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    But claiming Delay Repay on tickets you didn't buy is half the fun <D
     
  8. alxndr

    alxndr Member

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    True! Tad late to think of it now though, 6 months on! Thinking about it though I think I would have still ended up on the same final connection (had I attempted to catch it) as I would have anyway.
     
  9. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I have an example from a couple of months back where a ticket office clerk at Euston used every bit of white space on the back ticket to endorse it except the actual endorsements box!

    As far as I understand you're under no obligation whatsoever to get your ticket endorsed, but given the difficultly I've had from a small minority of railway staff across the network who refuse to believe your inbound connecting service was delayed despite reality, I now make a point of getting a guard or ticket office clerk to endorse the back of the ticket where possible.

    That said a couple of years ago I was travelling on an advance ticket and my connecting SWT service to Winchester was delayed, causing me to missed my allocated XC train to Birmingham. I asked the nice SWT guard to put a note on the back and they kindly obliged. On the next available service from Winchester I was then accused of deliberately defacing the ticket and committing an act of fraud by writing a scrawly note on the back in biro in a hope to blag my way on the train... so you just can't win sometimes!
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    There is certainly no endorsement requirement....
    ...however endorsement can offer reassurances for customers, which can help in the unlikely event that they encounter one of the minority of Guards who falsely claim that there is such a requirement.

    It's a myth.

    For the reality, see:

    There is no requirement for endorsement for a delay to a valid itinerary. However discretion can be given in many other circumstances, so the boxes may prove useful on occasions.
     
  11. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    I've had it on XC heading from Oxford to Leeds. The ticket was XC Only but due to delays between Oxford and Birmingham I ended up on a late train that didn't go to Leeds, so the guard endorsed it to allow me to get an EC or EMT train from Doncaster.
     
  12. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    An endorsement should be accompanied by an identifying mark, if your ticket didn't have it, then that may have caused doubt.
     
  13. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    I'm not sure what is being said here:

    If a train for which you have an advance ticket is delayed or cancelled then the situation is clear and you should be able to continue your journey, however is it that the OP has an advance ticket for long distance travel (Liverpool south parkway to wherever), and a separate ticket connecting them to that outbound journey (Formby to Liverpool south parkway)?

    If so, if that first connecting service for which the OP has a separate ticket is late, and they miss their advance ticket service from Liverpool south parkway as a result then surely they have simply missed their opportunity to use that advance ticket?
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  14. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    That's incorrect.
     
  15. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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    What sort of identifying mark tho? How many people on the network have the authority to endorse tickets? How would any of the other people on the network who have the authority to check tickets be able to identify them?
     
  16. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    The only time I had a ticket endorsed, the guard didn't leave any identifying marks at all. I wonder if the practice isn't as relevant as it used to be.
     
  17. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    Can you point me to the rules stating this? I've previously laboured under the thinking of what I posted earlier, in so doing arriving at mainline stations well before my advance ticket service is due to leave in case of delays (and sometimes not booking an Advance if I think it's impractical). If you're correct, it would save me a great deal of time.
     
  18. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    So long as they were at the origin station of their journey in good time, if they are delayed en route they are able to take a later train to complete their journey.

    This only applies where they are using a ticket valid on rail services, and they were delayed on a rail journey (e.g. delays on the Metro using a separate Metro ticket usually don't count)
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  19. thebigcheese

    thebigcheese Member

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    Well it comes from Section 19 of the NRCoC which states "You may use two or more tickets for one journey..."
     
  20. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It's noted in iKB (formerly the manual) what can be used, but an example would be a station stamp. I'm hesitant to state markings a guard could use.

    The Advance Fares FAQ notes that when the railway causes a delay the combination of tickets will be honoured on later services. Staff can find this information in iKB, however, I believe the FAQs are also available on this website (in the fares guide). Note, however, that if you are changing trains at the split point you must allow atleast the minimum suggested connection time for that station, or for interchanges between stations.
     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    A passenger may use two or more tickets for one journey. A delay to a train does not mean the passenger has missed their opportunity to be conveyed to their destination.
    NRCoC Condition 19, plus the T&Cs and contract law make the position clear, in my opinion.

    However some people used to contest this, so the position was clarified in the 'Advance Fares FAQ' in the internal knowledgebase (iKB), an extract of which is in PDF format as an attachment in our Advance tickets part of our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide.
    You do not need to allow any more than the minimum interchange time.

    Trainsplit will automatically ensures that the minimum interchange times are met.

    If you prefer to organise your own combination of tickets, then I suggest you either check the minimum interchange times manually or alternatively you may find it easier to check the itinerary on NRE or any of the booking engines before booking any of the individual legs.
     
  22. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I would be interested to know what other markings can be used other then a station stamp and what guards can use. Basically so next time I get one endorsed I can tell if its been done correctly.

    Needless to say, if anyone is so silly and dishonest to play around making the back of their own ticket, this would be fraud.
     
  23. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I believe others have got in before me with some comprehensive explanations. I was on a phone earlier so was unable to be more than just brief.

    The fundamental point is that as long as you are delayed en route, have valid tickets (can be more than one) covering all of your journey and have a valid itinerary then you will be covered for any missed connection.

    Obviously any local journey you make on the buses before arriving at the railway station would not be included, generally speaking.
     
  24. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    For example, it would be if it was a rail bus - e.g. from St Andrews to Leuchars with St Andrews as the origin of your ticket.
     
  25. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I too would be interested to know this so I can ensure it's done correctly and I won't be falsely accused of defacing tickets, committing fraud or lying in the future. When ever I've had a ticket endorsed by a ticket office they have stamped the back - seems like a sensible thing to do. All I've had with a guard is a short note on the back (or sometimes on a separate blank ticket) - no identifying marks other than perhaps a statement of the train I was delayed on. So it would appear guards (or at least those who've endorsed tickets for me) are unaware of this apparent requirement.
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2015
  26. Be3G

    Be3G Established Member

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    Is this true? Some years ago I tried to find out if this were the case as I was making a journey which began with an official bus link, but which connected with the last train of the day to my destination. The consensus seemed to be that the through-ticketing was merely offered as a financial/administrative convenience to passengers, and didn't confer the rights of onward travel or accommodation that would be provided if the journey had been entirely by rail. I did always doubt the validity of that, but couldn't find anyone who could categorically dispel the popular opinion.
     
  27. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    If the bus journey is on the same ticket as the rail journey (Luton Bus MK for example), yes it can be included. If it is on a separate ticket (such as PlusBus) it is not covered.
     
  28. island

    island Established Member

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    A guard could stamp next to the endorsement with his Zifa. If he has one...
     
  29. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    That's a very big "if". Most guards I come across seem to only be issued with a ball point pen!
     
  30. sarahj

    sarahj Established Member

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    I marked one today with a pen. In on why and when. Other info written that a fellow member of staff would know.

    Pass going from Havant to Truro. Missed their connection at Fareham/Southampton due to us being late. (was a 10 min connection so valid). Next connection via Salisbury would get them in hours later. Printed new intenery for a trip via Reading and XC then onto Truro from there. Then marked ticket.

    10 min late leaving Horsham*, caught up to only 6 mins late leaving Emsworth. Held at Warblington junc for a SWT train, which stopped at Bedhampton as well, which we did not. Thus late for crossing Farlington junc, then held before Cosham junction for 2 mins so the FGW train to Cardiff could go first. Had about 6 pass on my train for that connection. The other 6 either got a later train to Salisbury from Southampton, or got the next FGW to Cardiff in an hour.
    * not sure why late from Vic to Horsham. I think it was due to disruptive passengers on an earlier train in front at Clapham. It's a 2 3/4 hour run, so many places where a delay can happen on this train. I was happy that they held the Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper at Ford junction. If that goes in front its a turn around at Fareham for the Sou's to Vic's
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2015
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