Used my mom's freedom pass, got caught and received a letter from TFL:

[Dyda]

requesting a basic disclosure check

Thank you so much! and how can I do it?

 

[Dyda]

an expensive parking ticket

I love it! Can I really look at it like that? I mean with no additional paranoia?

 

[najaB]

Thank you so much! and how can I do it?

See here: https://www.gov.uk/request-copy-criminal-record

 

[tony_mac]

The term 'criminal record' isn't a term that has a specific meaning.

Many people take it to mean 'any convictions recorded on the Police National Computer', which this won't be, hence they will say you don't have a criminal record.
Other people think it means 'any history of convictions', and they will say you do have a (minor) criminal record. (The term 'criminal record' has been around since long before the Police National Computer...)

You have been convicted of a criminal offence - if you are legitimately asked about it, legally you should still declare it. If you apply for insurance, for example, in the next year and say you don't have any convictions, then if it ever comes to light they could refuse to payout on the basis that you lied about your conviction. (It could even, potentially, count as fraud to lie about it, but that's rather unlikely).

Because it's not recorded on the Police National Computer, it's very unlikely that anyone else will find out. It will have to be down to your judgement if you think lying about it is a good idea.

(You can probably consider it more like a speeding ticket than a parking ticket - parking is generally not a criminal matter, whereas speeding is.)

 

[najaB]

You have been convicted of a criminal offence - if you are legitimately asked about it, legally you should still declare it. If you apply for insurance, for example, in the next year.

Not wanting to do this *again* but, while follow your train of thought, absent specific clarification from an official source I don't think you can so confidently state this as legal fact.

 

[tony_mac]

All I mean is that lying in order to gain a job, or insurance, etc., is not legal (fraud by false representation is one possibility.)

 

[Dyda]

Thank you guys but from high to low again - meaning confused
The official letter I received 'Result of court case' says I have been found guilty of this offence and my penalty is a fine. They do NOT mention anything about a criminal record.
Being optimistic (for once) shouldn't I just stick to what the letter says and forget about 'criminal' as there is no mention of this in this official (hopefully) last legal letter?
So offence - does it equal criminal/record?

 

[tony_mac]

Offence does mean "Criminal Offence" (There isn't really any other sort of 'offence').

 

[najaB]

Offence does mean "Criminal Offence" (There isn't really any other sort of 'offence').

Yes. But not all offences are recorded. Byelaw offences definitely are not.

@Dyda, as I pointed out previously, you can obtain a copy of your criminal records for yourself if you want confirmation of what will be shown.

 

[Dyda]

Ok, thank you all very much for your help I really appreciate it a lot and I have no idea how I would have survived all this horrible experience without you. So thank you! thank you and thank you again

 

[island]

Not wanting to do this *again* but, while follow your train of thought, absent specific clarification from an official source I don't think you can so confidently state this as legal fact.

It will depend on the question asked.

If they ask “do you have a criminal record” the answer would be no.

If they ask “have you been convicted of any criminal offences” then saying no would be a lie.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It will depend on the question asked.

If they ask “do you have a criminal record” the answer would be no.

If they ask “have you been convicted of any criminal offences” then saying no would be a lie.

It seems to me that the honest answer to the second question is 'not that aren't spent.' Hopefully any employer you would want to work for would know to stop digging at that point - I think if they went further they would be breaking the law and you could pursue them through an employment tribunal.

And insurance companies are also careful about their reputation - they will ask carefully and legally worded questions that you can answer honestly. As an example, this is what Aviva say if you apply for travel insurance:

Assumptions
Please agree that the following statements are true to view your cover summary.

You and any other traveller named:
(five irrelevant assumptions edited out)

• Have not received any criminal conviction for fraud, dishonesty or deception in the last 5 years.

This only applies to convictions that are not spent under the 'Rehabilitation of Offenders Act as amended by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offender Act 2012'. If you are not sure whether a previous conviction is spent, refer to www.disclosurecalculator.org.uk or Unlock's public helpline 01634 247350.

(source:https://www.direct.aviva.co.uk/quote/Direct/Travel/TripTraveller/TravelDetails)

 

[island]

It seems to me that the honest answer to the second question is 'not that aren't spent.'

I’m not at all sure that’s correct. A byelaw conviction is a conviction, and if one is fined for it, the conviction is not spent for 12 months.

The conviction won’t (shouldn’t) be recorded on the PNC, but not being recorded does not equal being spent.

 

[najaB]

A byelaw conviction is a conviction, and if one is fined for it, the conviction is not spent for 12 months.

This has been stated repeatedly on the forum in recent weeks but nobody is able to provide a definitive source.

 

[island]

Section 5(2) of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

 

[najaB]

Section 5(2) of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Act. What isn't made clear is exactly how it is to be interpreted with respect to non-recordable offences, since that is a distinction that post dates the Act.

This, among other reasons, is why there's a call by Unlock and similar organisations for a review of the 1974 Act.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think there is any ambiguity, and I have never seen anyone else claim that there is. The act was extensively modified in 2012, if there was an intention to add an exception for non-recordable offences they could have done it then.
Most driving offence are non-recordable, do you really think that they are also immediately spent?

I don't think this post / discussion is in the right place. But I do want the OP to be aware of the issues instead of just believing that his conviction is, legally, spent.

 

[Joshua1202]

Hi guys,

I’ve just received a ‘Result of court case’ and it says:

----
On (date) magistrates considered the case brought against you by Transport for London and the following orders were made:

Offence – Enter a compulsory ticket area on the transport for London regional railway network without a valid ticket.

Fine £294, Costs: £100, Victim surcharge: £30

You have been found guilty of this offence. You need to pay a total of £424 within 14 days.

A collection order in case I don’t pay….

How to pay….
-----

So, it is all over? Of course I've already paid.
In this letter (1 page, 2-sided) nothing is mentioned about a criminal record, it’s all about a fine for an offence. It doesn’t say if it’s spent or unspent and how long it takes to spend it.

What does it mean? Should I call them to check if I have criminal record or would they just tell me?

Please I’m begging for your help, again!

Hello I'm in the same boat as you. They sent me the single justice procedure but my costs were £225 considering how low yours were, I want to plead guilty but go to court. Would it be okay if you emailed me your result so I can state that there's disreprencies in their fines. I'm not sure how I start a conversation with you. Kind regards

 

[najaB]

Would it be okay if you emailed me your result so I can state that there's disreprencies in their fines.

You probably won't get very far with that argument, tbh.

 

[Haywain]

Hello I'm in the same boat as you. They sent me the single justice procedure but my costs were £225 considering how low yours were, I want to plead guilty but go to court. Would it be okay if you emailed me your result so I can state that there's disreprencies in their fines. I'm not sure how I start a conversation with you. Kind regards

Please start a new thread so that advice can be given appropriately. No two cases are the same and costs can vary from one train company to another. In any event, pleading guilty in court and complaining about the costs is unlikely to be an approach that will achieve good results.

 

[Joshua1202]

Please start a new thread so that advice can be given appropriately. No two cases are the same and costs can vary from one train company to another. In any event, pleading guilty in court and complaining about the costs is unlikely to be an approach that will achieve good results.

They give you the option to plead guilty and go to court. I assume its for if you want to plead your case to get a lower fine.
I already have the argument I would use but showing that I'm being charged more than twice somebody else can only benefit me

 

[londonboi198o5]

Please don’t take this the wrong way but I don’t mean this to come across as rude. But it is not down to you to decide how much of a fine you should receive. The only way to make it fair is if you bought a tricker you were entitled to travel on in the first place

 

[Haywain]

They give you the option to plead guilty and go to court. I assume its for if you want to plead your case to get a lower fine.
I already have the argument I would use but showing that I'm being charged more than twice somebody else can only benefit me

Sorry Joshua but I think you are living in dreamland with that statement.

 

[Dyda]

Hello I'm in the same boat as you. They sent me the single justice procedure but my costs were £225 considering how low yours were, I want to plead guilty but go to court. Would it be okay if you emailed me your result so I can state that there's disreprencies in their fines. I'm not sure how I start a conversation with you. Kind regards

Hi, I am sorry I can’t email you anything because it contains my personal information but in this thread I’ve stated all the facts that have happened from the beginning so I hope this will be enough information for you.

I don't know why there are different costs - what was your fine btw and the total to pay? - but my experience was traumatic and I was only happy that I didn't get a criminal record.

If you decide to go to court the overall cost to you will be even higher as they will charge you for the venue, magistrates, their time and god knows what else!

So if your main goal is to save money, and if you are going to plead guilty, doing it outside the court will avoid additional charges. If they have proof you committed a crime there is no chance you can win it.

And also, if you are guilty think about your psychological health - do you know how much stress it will cause you to go to court? and you don't even know yet how many times you will have to go there...

 

[Dyda]

@najaB first of all, and everyone else who has helped me, I’d like to say a big thank you for supporting me through this horrible time. I am so glad that you exist

I’ve been meaning to post it for some time now but I kept forgetting due to my new job that sadly I’ve already managed to lose again :

I received a ‘Basic certificate’ of DBS checks, ‘basic certificate within the meaning of section 112 of the Police Act 1997’ and it states:
---
‘Police Records of Convictions, Cautions, Reprimands and Warnings

NONE RECORDED
---
It obviously makes me really happy and is the only consolation in this horrible next chapter of my life. I hope this information will give some piece of mind to other people who are or will be in my situation!

My only question is (and I think this is my paranoia and poor mental state talking again and tormenting me): should my next employer wish to do a Standard check – will they find out about my conviction?

Or will my conviction only appear on Enhanced checks?

And are any other checks (apart from the 3 – basic, standard, enhanced), where this conviction will appear, that I should be worried and aware of?

 

[Llanigraham]

They give you the option to plead guilty and go to court. I assume its for if you want to plead your case to get a lower fine.
I already have the argument I would use but showing that I'm being charged more than twice somebody else can only benefit me

Oh dear!
Yes if you plead guilty at the first occasion you fine will be reduced. However what you have either ignored or failed to understand is that the amount of a Magistrates Court Fine is based on the weekly income of the guilty party, therefore everyone will be different.
And if you want to start arguing with the Court then perhaps you should also study the rules of Contempt.

 

[island]

Employers don’t get to do standard (or enhanced) checks because they “wish to”. That only applies if you are applying for certain specific roles.

 

[Dyda]

Hi guys,

I have a question. I am looking for a job now and some agents have called me with jobs where I would be client facing and working on some projects for the government.

I think this will definitely require being security cleared.

Does anyone know if, with my offence – single fare evasion with no criminal record – there is a chance I could get security clearance or is it a definite no?
And should I declare my offence from the start?

Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Haywain]

Hi guys,

I have a question. I am looking for a job now and some agents have called me with jobs where I would be client facing and working on some projects for the government.

I think this will definitely require being security cleared.

Does anyone know if, with my offence – single fare evasion with no criminal record – there is a chance I could get security clearance or is it a definite no?
And should I declare my offence from the start?

Thank you very much in advance!

I've no idea whether it will impact on security clearance, but of course you should declare the offence from the start as not doing so effectively shows an extra level of dishonesty.

 

[Dyda]

I've no idea whether it will impact on security clearance, but of course you should declare the offence from the start as not doing so effectively shows an extra level of dishonesty.

Of course I would declare it at the start of the process, I was just wondering if it would disqualify me immediately…