Using an invalid route due to engineering works?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by callumbb, 19 Nov 2011.

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  1. callumbb

    callumbb Member

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    Hi, I have a ticket from London to Southampton with the "via Barnham" condition on it - i.e I would normally have to take the direct London Victoria to Southampton train.

    There seems to be a load of engineering work tomorrow and I can't find a reasonable route that goes via Barnham (the only journey via Barnham I could find involves going to Barnham, then back to London, then back to Southampton!). Would I therefore be allowed to use the South West Trains Waterloo to Southampton service?
     
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  3. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    Generally speaking, No. Provided there is an alternative timetable in place, such as replacement buses etc, then you should use that alternative timetable. Obviously if the line is completely closed and and there is no replacement service provided that is a different matter, but that is very rare. There is normally a replacement timetable of some sorts using trains / buses in place.

    In this case it is especially doubtful as it is a different TOC operating the service, so unless the TOCs have an agreement in place, I suggest an alternative route Excess may be required.


     
  4. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I thought 1072 London Terminals to Southampton route Barnham was changed to route Southern Only a while back?
     
  5. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Does it really say 'via Barnham' on the ticket?

    Going the other way (from stations between Havant and Southampton) they are normally routed 'Southern Only' in my experience...
     
  6. callumbb

    callumbb Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    National Rail Enquiries only gives me the option to go by train (which makes me go from Victoria to Barnham then back to Clapham Junction to get on the SWT service - completely pointless!). I've tried on the Southern website and that gives no option to restrict to via Barnham that I can see, but with "show Southern Trains only" selected, it still tells you to change at Clapham Junction and get the SWT service. Could that imply there is an agreement in place?

    Whenever I've checked SWT during engineering it always timetables the bus on the website - I assume Southern would do the same? I can't find any coherent timetable for a bus I would take from Victoria to Southampton.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Yeah it says "Route: Via Barnham, Validity: As Advertised".
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ah I see how I've confused you all - sorry I didn't think the bit I missed out was relevant to this!

    The ticket was a Southampton to Dumpton Park (Kent) ticket via Barnham. The second leg is by Southeastern (and there are no issues on this bit of the ticket) which is presumably why it doesn't say Southern only.

    Sorry about the confusion!
     
  7. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Southern's planner routes you on a bus from Bognor Regis to Havant around mid day tomorrow, if you select 'via Barnham'.

    Then SWT from Havant to Southampton with a change at Fratton. The direct SN services between Havant and Southampton tomorrow aren't running, not unusual with a block in the Barnham area.

    If you are travelling as early as possible and arrive at Havant before midday, there are no trains Havant to Fratton either...
     
  8. Mike395

    Mike395 Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I should just add - 'Route Barnham' tickets from Southeastern destinations are not valid via London - the only permitted route is via Ashford and Brighton :)
     
  9. callumbb

    callumbb Member

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    Thanks, I didn't see that option on their planner first of all.

    That's going to be a pain - especially as I have to switch to the exact same South West train I could have taken from Clapham Junction in the end anyway!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Really? The Southern Trains journey planner tells me to go to London with that fare. The guard who checked the ticket didn't say anything either (or is it only "from" the destination and not "to" it?). Though it does explain how the Southampton to Dumpton Park ticket is cheaper than a London to Dumpton Park ticket!
     
  10. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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  11. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Tell that to journey planners!
     
  12. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Looking at the National Routeing Guide.

    Dumpton Park is a related station to Faversham and Ramsgate.
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 20

    To find out which, if either of these is appropriate, we must do a fare comparison.
    Dumpton Park-Southampton Ctl
    CDS £58.30
    SDS £64.70

    Faversham-Southampton Ctl
    CDS £48.40
    SDS £54.40
    Both these fares are less than the Dumpton Park fare, therefore Faversham is an appropriate routeing point.

    Ramsgate-Southampton Ctl
    CDS £58.30
    SDS £64.70
    Both these fares are equal to the Dumpton Park fare, therefore Ramsgate is an appropriate routeing point.

    Southampton Ctl is a member of the Southampton Group.
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 55

    Routeing permissions for Faversham-Southampton are:
    London, LR+LK+SC+CW and LR+WX
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 321

    Routeing permissions for London-Southampton are:
    LB+CW, LP, PD+CW, SC+CW, SC+PD+CW, WR+MW, WX and WX+MW
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 605

    LP gives:
    London-Clapham Jn-Streatham Group-Croydon-Redhill-Gatwick-Three Bridges-Horsham-Ford-Havant-Southampton
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf page 66

    Therefore, I conclude that there are valid routes for Dumpton Park-Southampton which pass through Barnham. This may not be the case when the origin is a different South Eastern Division station.
     
  13. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I'm confused now.

    Surely if the OP's ticket is a cheaper fare routed 'via Barnham' - it must by definition be valid via Barnham anyway, and it isn't necessary to check that?

    Isn't the question therefore whether Dumpton Park to Barnham is valid via London?
     
  14. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    I think it's clagmonster's summary that may be somewhat confusing.

    Perhaps it should say:

    Therefore, I conclude that there are valid routes for Dumpton Park-Southampton via London which pass through Barnham. This may not be the case when the origin is a different South Eastern Division station.
     
  15. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Yes, appologies I worded it very badly.
     
  16. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree with this summary. My interpretation of the rules for route restrictions (where the RG needs to be consulted) is that any mapped routes which pass through (or avoid for NOT tickets) the location(s) stated on the ticket are valid.
     
  17. 55003

    55003 Member

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    I commute to Gatwick from Tonbridge and when there is engineering the National Rail Enquiries website always shows a route via London.You have to dig quite deeply and put in an intermediate station such as Penshirst to try and find the buses ,so who is correct?
     
  18. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    You will probably find that NRES shows the quickest journey. If you look at the tickets it offers you it may well say that you need more than one ticket, or the more expensive route, depending what option is available. Or at least it should do!
     
  19. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    I'd say that you need to speak to the SWT guard prior to departure from WAT and ask if he'll let you travel direct due to engineering on the southern route. I'd be surprised if he even excesses you, tbh
     
  20. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    If i have worked this out correctly if the guard does decide to excess you you are likely to pay :

    Off Peak Return Route Barnham Southampton to Dumpton Park £29.00
    Off Peak Return Route Any Permitted Southampton to Dumpton Park £63.50

    Difference between 2 fares : £34.20. Because you are returning on your return portion half of this fare will apply so this makes the excess £17.10.
     
  21. Lrd

    Lrd Established Member

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    But there are buses running Bognor Regis to Havant, therefore the OP can still complete there journey through Barnham. I would expect the Guard to laugh in my face and turn me away, tbh!
     
  22. callumbb

    callumbb Member

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    Thanks for all the replies. Even if it wasn't technically allowed I was hoping the guard would show sympathy and let me through considering the London - Southampton route through Barnham is now ridiculous due to engineering works, whereas it should normally be a direct train.

    I think I may just wait and go back on Monday when it's back to normal - I don't really have £17 to waste on a ticket excess!
     
  23. Urban Gateline

    Urban Gateline Established Member

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    Remember though that your original ticket is effectively Southern only if from London terminals, so all of the revenue will go to them, why would SWT accept your ticket without an excess, if it were to mean zero revenue for them? Secondly, you probably wouldn't get through the barriers at Waterloo either, any "Southern only" tickets are rejected, and I would expect the CSA on the barriers not to let you through on a "route:Barnham" ticket.

    As Lewis said, if there is sufficient methods to complete your journey (Rail Replacement buses included) then you should use those methods, most engineering work is displayed on the TOC's website long in advance, so you could have checked before buying the ticket.
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2011
  24. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Disagree with that. A route:Barnham ticket between Dumpton Park and Southampton can be used with numerous different TOCs on the various routes it is valid.
     
  25. Urban Gateline

    Urban Gateline Established Member

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    Ok, my bad, I am refering to journeys starting from London terminals in my post, should have made myself more clear!
     
  26. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Even on the portion of the journey from London Terminals to Southampton via Barnham (assuming we're all agreed that route:Barnham is valid via London!) then the ticket could still be valid on TOCs other than Southern. Taking the RG options for Dumpton Park to Southampton you could travel on SWT, FCC, Southeastern, even FGW, for part of the journey!

    Please excuse my overly anal pedantry. :p
     
  27. callumbb

    callumbb Member

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    It's not from London terminals, it's not Southern only (half the journey is on Southeastern) and the re-routing involves 1 hour on a SWT service, compared to 1hr15mins if I got on at Clapham Junction. Also, the only barriers I should be going through are at Victoria.

    It presumably has been on the website a while, but it wasn't displayed on the homepage like it is for the TOCs I usually use so I missed it. Still my fault I guess for not looking further though.

    I was hoping this would be a case where common sense could be used as opposed to strictly following the rules. I guess not!
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2011
  28. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Common sense on the railways? There's a novel idea! :lol:
     
  29. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Agree the barrier may not recognise the ticket, however this ticket is valid Waterloo-clapham junction on SWT....

    I still say to try talking to the guard - then if all else fails going on the rail rep bus.
     
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