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Using only the "& connections" part of an advance ticket

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an7li721

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Sorry if it has been asked before, but I'm curious to know if this is possible. I am travelling from London to Cambridge, and 2 advance fares from Rugby to Cambridge and then Cambridge to Rugby (via London) works out quite a bit cheaper than an open return ticket from London to Cambridge. The advance fares only impose a time restriction on the Rugby-London train, and don't specify a specific London-Cambridge train, so I'm wondering if that effectively makes it an open ticket?
 
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trivran

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Essentially, but you'd be well advised not to push your luck with it, especially if they ask to see your reservation.
 

Merseysider

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No, it doesn't make it an open ticket. It means you can take an appropriate connecting train to London and you can also, if you choose to, breach the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket by finishing short at London. There's a subtle difference. It's also a slightly selfish thing to do as people who are genuinely travelling to Rugby may have to pay more for a higher-tier advance.
 
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Tetchytyke

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You have to take a reasonable connecting train into London, which will be set out in your itinerary when you book. Using it more than an hour before will see serious questions asked.

It is also against the rules of the ticket to break or e d your journey in London, although whether this would be detected is a different matter.
 

yorkie

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Sorry if it has been asked before, but I'm curious to know if this is possible. I am travelling from London to Cambridge, and 2 advance fares from Rugby to Cambridge and then Cambridge to Rugby (via London) works out quite a bit cheaper than an open return ticket from London to Cambridge. The advance fares only impose a time restriction on the Rugby-London train, and don't specify a specific London-Cambridge train, so I'm wondering if that effectively makes it an open ticket?
It's an Advance ticket, which means break of journey is not permitted.

You may take appropriate connecting trains between Cambridge & London in order to connect with your booked train.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1323474&postcount=3

If numerous people attempt to do as you describe, the train companies will probably implement measures to prevent and/or detect it.
 

bb21

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No, it doesn't make it an open ticket. It means you can take an appropriate connecting train to London and you can also, if you choose to, breach the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket by finishing short at London. There's a subtle difference. It's also a slightly selfish thing to do as people who are genuinely travelling to Rugby may have to pay more for a higher-tier advance.

A very selfish thing to do imo, but not that many care about it if it saves them money.

Right or wrong in this case looks different in different people's eyes.
 

father_jack

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A very selfish thing to do imo, but not that many care about it if it saves them money.

Right or wrong in this case looks different in different people's eyes.
You'll probably find advances on non reservable SN and SE trains via London to Swindon that are cheaper than singles on the SN or SE journey on their own. It's the definition of "appropriate" is the thing. Your ticket will only have a reservation on the major leg.
 

greatkingrat

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A very selfish thing to do imo, but not that many care about it if it saves them money.

Right or wrong in this case looks different in different people's eyes.

Is it selfish to book advances for two different trains because you are not sure what time you will be returning and then throw one away?
 

bb21

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Is it selfish to book advances for two different trains because you are not sure what time you will be returning and then throw one away?

IMO yes, but perhaps the real issue is that some Advances are too cheap, compared to walk-on fares. Both moving towards each other a bit more may help.
 

paul1609

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It's an Advance ticket, which means break of journey is not permitted.

You may take appropriate connecting trains between Cambridge & London in order to connect with your booked train.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1323474&postcount=3

If numerous people attempt to do as you describe, the train companies will probably implement measures to prevent and/or detect it.

Its been an issue for years and was one of the reasons Southern Introduced their own advances. Its a result of a long term policy to provide over capacity on many "Inter City" routes off peak in the belief that its going to regenerate the North. Quite how loads of day visitors from Yorkshire to London regenerates the North is still beyond me.
 

Tetchytyke

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IMO yes, but perhaps the real issue is that some Advances are too cheap, compared to walk-on fares. Both moving towards each other a bit more may help.

It depends which way you move them...

I don't have an ethical problem with it. If TOCs are going to fleece commuters by only offering expensive walk-up tickets, then people are going to try and find ways to get around it. It used to be rather irritating to be spending £15 on a single from Hemel to London, only to have to stand all the way because of all the brummies on their £5 cheapo advance tickets already on board.
 

Blindtraveler

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Not gunna lie here, Iv done it but never published details of when where and how on here or anywhere else. Those in the know may know better but I am unsure how it could be detected, esp if the ticket involves different London stations and also due to the number of times tickets dont seam to be iether checked at all or checked so quickly as to not pay all that much attention.

Of course if you regularly booked an MTicket, print at home or other trackable, traceable product then I guess this is how detection may happen?
 

Tetchytyke

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As bb21 said, towards each other: make the Advances more expensive and the walk-up tickets cheaper.

I think there's more chance of me getting the six numbers up on Saturday than there is of a TOC cutting walk-up tickets.
 

najaB

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I think there's more chance of me getting the six numbers up on Saturday than there is of a TOC cutting walk-up tickets.
If it's revenue neutral (or slightly revenue positive) they might well do it. "We've cut fares" is always good PR.
 

Tetchytyke

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"We've cut fares" is always good PR.

Only if they actually do cut fares.

VTEC "cut fares" by cutting 10% off the Anytime fare that nobody buys. But then the Advance tickets people do buy have gone up, so most people are paying a lot more- and are noticing it. Not such good PR.

The solution is to not treat local customers as cash cows. But then that's GoVia's bread and butter, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

The selfish thing is the TOCs ripping off local passengers. If anyone could explain why I had to pay 3x more for a single journey of 25 miles than someone going all the way to Birmingham on the same train did, and why that isn't just greed, I'm all ears :)
 

yorkie

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If anyone could explain why I had to pay 3x more for a single journey of 25 miles than someone going all the way to Birmingham on the same train did, and why that isn't just greed, I'm all ears :)
Because the company have decided that you have no realistic option to travelling by train (OK, if the fare was too high, you'd drive to an alternative 'railhead', but you didn't, so...!) and therefore you will pay a high fare.

The person travelling to Birmingham is likely to consider flying, or travelling with another train company (e.g. Virgin & Chiltern are both faster, and at most times there is more chance of a seat with either of those) and therefore the only way to get their custom is to charge a cheaper fare.

I am not saying it is morally right but that's the model of privatisation that we have in Britain and there is nothing we can do to stop them doing this.

I would never buy a York - Leeds ticket, but many people do, as TPE know that they can charge a huge premium for it and most people are not going to have any idea how they can bring the fare down.
 

yorkie

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Off topic I know so feel free to shoot me but what would you buy instead of a YRK>LDS?
As I've met you, a PM has been sent. ;)

There are many fares which are priced ludicrously, and are undercut by fares that are merely a bit expensive, but those of us who use fares that aren't terribly expensive won't want the prying eyes of pricing departments to wreck havoc on our travel plans ;):lol:

If the choice was between paying the ludicrous York-Leeds fare by train or going on CityZap, I'd have to choose the latter (assuming it ran at the times I wanted to travel), but I fear some pricing people in the rail industry would rather lose our custom to spite us, so would close any anomalies if they became aware of them, so would see the loss of revenue and custom as some sort of victory.
 

infobleep

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As I've met you, a PM has been sent. ;)

There are many fares which are priced ludicrously, and are undercut by fares that are merely a bit expensive, but those of us who use fares that aren't terribly expensive won't want the prying eyes of pricing departments to wreck havoc on our travel plans ;):lol:

If the choice was between paying the ludicrous York-Leeds fare by train or going on CityZap, I'd have to choose the latter (assuming it ran at the times I wanted to travel), but I fear some pricing people in the rail industry would rather lose our custom to spite us, so would close any anomalies if they became aware of them, so would see the loss of revenue and custom as some sort of victory.

I'm not sure they always understand the loss of revenue. It's possible that they only see that someone can't pay less anymore and ignored the fact that now they might not be paying at all.
 

urbophile

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It is also against the rules of the ticket to break or end your journey in London, although whether this would be detected is a different matter.

It's a bit like those cathedrals that allow free entry if you are going to a service as long as you don't look round: how do you get from Euston to Kings Cross (or Liverpool Street) without breaking your journey? Are you allowed to stop for a coffee en route or is it like Monopoly: Go directly to Jail; do not pass Go; do not collect £200?
 

Blindtraveler

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Its all smeekilly designed so that the uninitiated rush like mad thinking they
HAVE
to catch the very first train possible or at very least the one on their shedule and should such things as coffees be desired they pay onboard hiked prices. Little do they know that many will on the journey you suggest stop at Sainsburys on the way to Euston Square and that there is a certain amount of flex built in to the connections leg of the trip.

Appologies for total sinic mode
 

Hadders

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Using Sainsbury's at Euston wouldn't constitute a break of journey as it is on the station premises ;)
 

infobleep

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Its all smeekilly designed so that the uninitiated rush like mad thinking they
HAVE
to catch the very first train possible or at very least the one on their shedule and should such things as coffees be desired they pay onboard hiked prices. Little do they know that many will on the journey you suggest stop at Sainsburys on the way to Euston Square and that there is a certain amount of flex built in to the connections leg of the trip.

Appologies for total sinic mode
Perhaps we should go navy to the days when trains were legally obliged to stop at certain stations to passengers could get refreshments. Don't know when it died out but was around in the 1880s at least.

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Clip

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I'm not sure they always understand the loss of revenue. It's possible that they only see that someone can't pay less anymore and ignored the fact that now they might not be paying at all.

Of course we do which is the main reason why tickets like the Leeds - York is more than a little shack to York is because thats what people want to buy for the journey theyre wanting to take.


Whilst supermarket analogys are never good in this instance the food in Aldi and Lidl is cheaper even though in a lot of cases its still made by the companys that have their own 'premium' branded products. Companys are happy to do this for them as theyre still making money from doing so even though its cheaper than the branded stuff. A shack from outside either of those cities being cheaper just increases patronage form those who may take the car instead and thus its better to get some money than none.
 

185143

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As I've met you, a PM has been sent. ;)

There are many fares which are priced ludicrously, and are undercut by fares that are merely a bit expensive, but those of us who use fares that aren't terribly expensive won't want the prying eyes of pricing departments to wreck havoc on our travel plans ;)[emoji38]

If the choice was between paying the ludicrous York-Leeds fare by train or going on CityZap, I'd have to choose the latter (assuming it ran at the times I wanted to travel), but I fear some pricing people in the rail industry would rather lose our custom to spite us, so would close any anomalies if they became aware of them, so would see the loss of revenue and custom as some sort of victory.
I think you mentioned that ticket at the fares workshop I attended?

EDIT-You did, found it in the notes I made that day.

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