Using Super Off peak via High Wycombe on Virgin trains "blockade buster"

[TSR :D]

I understand this discussion has been done to death regularly and the consensus is that it's accepted (And it should be).

However I did stumble across a info stating that this type of service is very busy and people regularly get turned away if the train service is full and those people are usually super off peak holders because people with virgin trains ticket holders are prioritised.

I'm looking at red spotted hanky site right now, it seems to me that seats can be reserved on those services using super off peak ticket. I have a few questions regarding to this matter:

1. Can they turn me away on these train services if it's full? What are my rights if I had reserved a seat on that service?

2. Thankfully, I never needed to tell someone to get off their seats if I'm reserved on those seats but I'm worried about this becoming a possibility on these train services. What can I do about it if they refuse to get off? I'm not quite so good with standing for long time due with issues with my back.

3. If I remember correctly, there was an easement from virgin trains for railcard holders which allows them to travel peak time on off peak ticket. Does that apply in this case?

Thanks.

 

[maniacmartin]

1. If you have reserved a seat and your reservation will not be honoured, you can claim a full refund by presenting your ticket to any ticket office, provided you decide not to travel using said ticket. (NRCoC 26(a))

2. If someone is sat in your reserved seat and refuses to move, you can seek assistance from the Train Manager (assuming the train isn't so wedged that you can't get to them)

3. The easement applies "to point-to-point journeys (except between London Euston and Milton Keynes Central) made solely on board Virgin Trains using Railcard-discounted Off-Peak tickets, between stations at which our services call."

 

[TSR :D]

1. If you have reserved a seat and your reservation will not be honoured, you can claim a full refund by presenting your ticket to any ticket office, provided you decide not to travel using said ticket. (NRCoC 26(a))

2. If someone is sat in your reserved seat and refuses to move, you can seek assistance from the Train Manager (assuming the train isn't so wedged that you can't get to them)

3. The easement applies "to point-to-point journeys (except between London Euston and Milton Keynes Central) made solely on board Virgin Trains using Railcard-discounted Off-Peak tickets, between stations at which our services call."

Thanks!

The easement would apply in my case provided I use disabled railcard and go between Birmingham International and Euston. Brfares.com says it has restriction code PV which doesn't even have any restrictions for journeys to and from Euston.

Now I've looked at red spotted hanky, it seems they actually offer any permitted super off peak instead of via High Wycombe. I would need to go to a rail station to buy the ticket as booking engines won't allow it (They won't even offer any-permitted tickets inside restricted times when using a railcard).

So looks like it's time for a trip to New St.

 

[CyrusWuff]

3. The easement applies "to point-to-point journeys (except between London Euston and Milton Keynes Central) made solely on board Virgin Trains using Railcard-discounted Off-Peak tickets, between stations at which our services call."

That's something of an oversimplification by Virgin. The other caveat is that the ticket has to be priced by Virgin as well, which the via High Wycombe tickets aren't.

In addition, a Super Off-Peak ticket (ticket type OPS/OPR) isn't an Off-Peak ticket (ticket type SVS/SVR), so the easement wouldn't apply anyway, nor does it apply to Virgin's own Super Off-Peak tickets (ticket type SSS/SSR).

 

[TSR :D]

I can't seem to find this easement anywhere on official sources. Did this easement get discontinued recently?

Is it possible that this ticket is valid due to having PV restriction code which meant there is no restriction on arrival/departure times at Euston?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I can't seem to find this easement anywhere on official sources. Did this easement get discontinued recently?

It used to be mentioned on the individual Railcard pages in "The Manual". I haven't checked iKB yet though.

Is it possible that this ticket is valid due to having PV restriction code which meant there is no restriction on arrival/departure times at Euston?

There are two sets of restricted times for codes PU and PV. One from/to London Terminals and the other from/to Reading. This hasn't changed since the migration from The Manual to iKB.

Similarly, Virgin's Super Off-Peak restrictions apply for London Terminals and Birmingham Stations even though the public material states Euston and New Street.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....1. Can they turn me away on these train services if it's full? What are my rights if I had reserved a seat on that service?....

Yes, they can. You can apply for a refund on any fees you paid for the reserved seat and you could claim compensation for a delay under the relevant compensation scheme. You could decide not to travel and claim a refund, but whether this will be under NRCoC Condition 26a or 26b will depend on where you bought the ticket and whose ticket office you apply to.

....2. Thankfully, I never needed to tell someone to get off their seats if I'm reserved on those seats but I'm worried about this becoming a possibility on these train services. What can I do about it if they refuse to get off? I'm not quite so good with standing for long time due with issues with my back....

Go to the Train Manager and explain the situation to them.

....3. If I remember correctly, there was an easement from virgin trains for railcard holders which allows them to travel peak time on off peak ticket. Does that apply in this case?....

The easement applies to SVS (Off-Peak Single) SVR (Off-Peak Return) and SVH (Off-Peak Day Single) tickets combined with 16-25, Family & Friends, Senior, Disabled Persons or HM Forces Railcard. It does not apply to other Off-Peak tickets or to any other Railcards.

That's something of an oversimplification by Virgin. The other caveat is that the ticket has to be priced by Virgin as well, which the via High Wycombe tickets aren't....

I can't recall the exact wording of the restriction off hand, but my recollection was that this part of the easement disappeared a couple of years ago.

It used to be mentioned on the individual Railcard pages in "The Manual". I haven't checked iKB yet though....

iKB mentions the easement on all relevant Railcard pages.

 

[maniacmartin]

iKB says this on the 16-25 Railcard page

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR which are discounted using a 16-25 Railcard can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. This easement does not apply for journeys wholly between Milton Keynes Central/Northampton and London Euston in either direction.

Here it mentions the SVR (which is not the Super Off-Peak return). No mention here that the ticket has to be priced by Virgin, however this information isn't publicly available so you wouldn't really be able to use it to back you up.

 

[yorkie]

I understand this discussion has been done to death regularly and the consensus is that it's accepted (And it should be).

However I did stumble across a info stating that this type of service is very busy and people regularly get turned away if the train service is full and those people are usually super off peak holders because people with virgin trains ticket holders are prioritised.

They could enforce 'reservations only', so if you obtain a reservation that will cover you in such an event.

I don't see how they can enforce "virgin trains tickets only" - the only walk-up tickets routed Virgin Trains only are for shorter journeys e.g. Coventry-Birmingham, London-Milton Keynes (which wouldn't be applicable in this case).

I'm looking at red spotted hanky site right now, it seems to me that seats can be reserved on those services using super off peak ticket. I have a few questions regarding to this matter:

1. Can they turn me away on these train services if it's full? What are my rights if I had reserved a seat on that service?

They could turn reservation holders away by allowing anyone without a reservation to board and then simply saying "the train is full" to anyone who turns up later. You can avoid that by arriving at the station early and keep an eye on websites like Realtimetrains for the platform.

2. Thankfully, I never needed to tell someone to get off their seats if I'm reserved on those seats but I'm worried about this becoming a possibility on these train services. What can I do about it if they refuse to get off? I'm not quite so good with standing for long time due with issues with my back.

If the seat is shown as reserved, politely ask them to move. If they refuse, ask the Train Manager for advice. The TM may make the person move or may bump you up to 1st class. If all else fails, Virgin Trains appear to have an undocumented policy of providing compensation if no seat is available.

If the seat is not shown as reserved, you can't make them move, and if you can't find an alternative, seek advice from the TM. Again, VT may compensate you.

3. If I remember correctly, there was an easement from virgin trains for railcard holders which allows them to travel peak time on off peak ticket. Does that apply in this case?

The easement applies to Off Peak Returns ( ticket code: SVR) but not to Super Off Peak Returns (ticket codes: SSR/OPR)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's something of an oversimplification by Virgin. The other caveat is that the ticket has to be priced by Virgin as well, which the via High Wycombe tickets aren't.

That was the old rules - they changed that about 2 years ago (ish).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Evidence of this is hard to find, and Virgin Trains refuse to document it, but it can be found on Twitter [1], [2], and the restriction text in BRfares

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior , Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. This easement does not apply for journeys wholly between Milton Keynes Central/ Northampton and London Euston in either direction.

I can't recall the exact wording of the restriction off hand,

See above, but here's a summary:

• Most National Railcards, but not Gold/2 together/Network (but contradicted by this tweet which refers to "a rail card discount")
• Off Peak but not if suffixed with Day or prefixed with Super (but contradicted by this tweet which refers to "any journey"!)
• Most flows, but not MKC <> EUS (but contradicted by this tweet which refers to "any journey"!)
• Only if the entire journey is by Virgin Trains (the ticket can be for a longer journey, e.g. Ashford to Bolton, but it's still valid if you don't use the other part of the journey [source])

 

[TSR :D]

Thanks everyone for being helpful and informative.

@Yorkie, I meant that flows priced by Virgin Trains, advance tickets and any-permitted are prioritised.

There are two sets of restricted times for codes PU and PV. One from/to London Terminals and the other from/to Reading. This hasn't changed since the migration from The Manual to iKB.

Similarly, Virgin's Super Off-Peak restrictions apply for London Terminals and Birmingham Stations even though the public material states Euston and New Street.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63061.aspx

Says restriction times are for Marylebone and Paddington but I'm guessing you mean it's restricted to London terminals in non-public materials.

If information from internal and public materials contradicts with each other, then information from the latter usually applies. Is this correct?

Anyway I've missed the key information that it is for Monday to Friday, and there are no restrictions on weekends which I'll be travelling on.

A quick question - Since I can't find ticket via High Wycombe on booking engines (and book a seat reservation at the same time). Is it possible to book a seat reservation at my local station which is only staffed by London Midland (Snow Hill line) and do they have facilities to book me a specific seat?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks everyone for being helpful and informative.

@Yorkie, I meant that flows priced by Virgin Trains, advance tickets and any-permitted are prioritised.

I can understand prioritising people who have reservations. I could also understand prioritising longer distance passengers, or - while not ideal - a 'first come first served' basis.

But priority based on who sets the flow?! If they did that, I think we'd need to be taking the matter further...

 

[maniacmartin]

Is it possible to book a seat reservation at my local station which is only staffed by London Midland (Snow Hill line) and do they have facilities to book me a specific seat?

Schedule 17 of the TSA details which stations can book seat reservations. Note that some stations are not required to offer this facility for their full opening hours - the link has full details.

If your station shows in that link as offering reservations, then it should be possible regardless of the TOC

 

[TSR :D]

Thanks.

I can understand prioritising people who have reservations. I could also understand prioritising longer distance passengers, or - while not ideal - a 'first come first served' basis.

But priority based on who sets the flow?! If they did that, I think we'd need to be taking the matter further...

Sorry, my memory isn't very good but this was where I got information from

Is there specific reason why Virgin trains terminate their trains at International instead of New St?

 

[adrock1976]

Thanks.



Sorry, my memory isn't very good but this was where I got information from

Is there specific reason why Virgin trains terminate their trains at International instead of New St?

It is I believe to save having diesel Voyagers running under the wires north of Birmingham.

Also, the route from Willesden Junction continues via the Acton Wells line?, joins the Great Western at Acton, then diverges via Greenford and the Great Central/Great Western Alternative route via High Wycombe. The wires run out just past Willesden Junction. I have been on this diversion back in 2008.

In peace

Adam

 

[CyrusWuff]

I can't recall the exact wording of the restriction off hand, but my recollection was that this part of the easement disappeared a couple of years ago.

It may not be in print anywhere, but Journey Planners and Ticket Issuing Systems still appear to be enforcing it.

Though in this case it's a moot point, as the "via High Wycombe" SVS and SVR are unrestricted leaving London anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, my memory isn't very good but this was where I got information from

I don't know what happened with that complaint, but I'd say that it could be reported as a potential franchise breach. If it happens again, I'd be happy to proof read letters to Virgin as well as appropriate bodies (DfT, Passenger Focus, etc).