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Vaccine pass regulations in England

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island

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The vaccine pass regulations taking effect from Wednesday at 6am have been published (SI2021/1416).

They apply to nightclubs, indoor non-seated events with over 500 people, outdoor non-seated events with over 4,000 people, and other events with over 10,000 people.

As well as vaccine passes, a medical exemption certificate or clinical trial participation can be used to enter. You can also use a report of a negative NHS test taken in the past 48 hours. Since LFTs are self-reported, that makes the entire regime completely useless in a stroke.

More £10,000 FPNs too, such as for counterfeiting a CovidPass.
 
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Kite159

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I feel sorry for the staff on the doors to those sort of venues having the hassle of having to check a pointless app to see that person has had the vaccines.
 
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I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.
 

westv

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I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.
Because there will be a lot more people to check
Because it will involve more premises
 

MikeWM

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As well as vaccine passes, a medical exemption certificate or clinical trial participation can be used to enter. You can also use a report of a negative NHS test taken in the past 48 hours. Since LFTs are self-reported, that makes the entire regime completely useless in a stroke.

...to stop the spread of a virus, but we knew that already. But that's not the point.

The point is to get the population used to the behaviour change - to require getting Government permission to do things, and show that permission while doing those things, whereas previously you could do those things freely.

That there are currently trivial ways around it is part of the plan - to placate some who would otherwise resist. Once the behaviour change is engrained, the conditions will be tightened.
 

brad465

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I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.
Regardless of how inconvenient this pass is, one only needs to look to the continent to see they don't appear to be having any effect on infection rates; countries like Germany have recently had record high case peaks, despite some form of covid pass being in place for months. In fact, one only needs to look to Wales and Scotland to see they don't seem to be effective for similar reasons.

The covid vaccines are similar to flu vaccines, in that they reduce symptom severity/risk of serious illness, but are not very good at stopping transmission or preventing any form of illness, unlike MMR vaccines for example. Therefore, going into a venue full of others who are vaccinated is no guarantee you won't get infected.
 

Cdd89

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One also only needs to look at how many 15-17 year olds borrow friends’ driving licenses or proof of age cards to get into clubs (answer: most of them that want to go clubbing!).
 

Watershed

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The vaccine pass regulations taking effect from Wednesday at 6am have been published (SI2021/1416).

They apply to nightclubs, indoor non-seated events with over 500 people, outdoor non-seated events with over 4,000 people, and other events with over 10,000 people.

As well as vaccine passes, a medical exemption certificate or clinical trial participation can be used to enter. You can also use a report of a negative NHS test taken in the past 48 hours.
The criteria are, as usual, utterly arbitrary. Why is a nightclub any higher risk than a pub for example? How does a football stadium with 10,000 seats present such an increased degree of risk over a stadium with 9,999 seats that the former justifies these measures and the latter can be a free-for-all?

Clearly it's only being applied to a limited number of places for now, to make it difficult for anyone to argue it's unwarranted. And then just as in other countries - and parts of the UK - it will in due course become mandatory across more and more of daily life "to help fight the virus".

Since LFTs are self-reported, that makes the entire regime completely useless in a stroke.
Anyone who thinks that alternative will remain available (for free or at all) is delusional, I'm afraid. It's just a proviso that's being put in to make it palatable enough to get it over the line.

The reason for its eventual removal will almost certainly be one or more from the following bingo sheet:
  1. "It's too expensive. You should have to pay for tests yourself if you're unvaccinated."
  2. "The tests are too unreliable/don't detect the X variant"
  3. "People can submit false negatives"
  4. "There's no way of telling whose sample it is"
We're crossing the Rubicon here. Once this is introduced it's difficult to see the circumstances under which it'll ever be removed, let alone have its scope reduced.

More £10,000 FPNs too, such as for counterfeiting a CovidPass.
Of course. How else would you get across the message "it's almost impossible for us to detect this offence so for anyone we catch, we'll "offer" them a FPN far larger than the fine they'd get if they took it to court. That'll put them off!" :rolleyes:

William Hague's opinion piece in today's Times is very revealing:
The four or five million adults in the UK who still have not had even their first vaccine are compromising the health and freedom of the vast majority.
...
Sir Andrew Pollard, the Oxford scientist who chairs the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunology, has said “Covid-19 is no longer a disease of the vaccinated”.
...
The inescapable conclusion of such evidence is that a refusal to be vaccinated, excepting those cases where people are immuno-compromised and have a medical reason not to be jabbed, is an important factor in keeping everyone else under threat of restrictions on their liberty.
...
Compulsion would raise formidably difficult problems of enforcement and is ethically wrong — even in the world wars, people were not compelled to fight. But doing a great deal more to persuade, nudge, incentivise and push people towards taking part in our collective defence is another matter.
...
Proof of vaccination to enter a venue is no guarantee that you can’t catch the virus there, since efficacy of vaccines wanes over time and fully jabbed people can still carry it. But experience abroad suggests that more people will turn up for their injection when their access to aspects of normal life is at stake.
Quite apart from the selective use of facts (and out of date data), the argument effectively seems to be "it's immoral to force people to get vaccinated ... but it's perfectly fine to make daily life so difficult they have no real choice".

That's an absurdly inconsistent argument if you ask me - and as recent data shows, the current round of Covid vaccines' efficiency peaks quite soon after the administration of a given dose. So is Hague (and others like him) seriously suggesting we will need to be vaccinated every 3-6 months, and show vaccine passports "proving" we have complied with the latest diktat, forever?

And if so, for what? To get the vaccination rate up by maybe 5%, at best? Is that seriously worth throwing away bodily autonomy for?

That's the road that most of continental Europe has gone down but it's a very sinister path. Before Covid, I'd have said we are better than that here. Sadly it's clear we are not. We are going down exactly same path, just a little later than them, and based on exactly the same flawed arguments.
 
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david1212

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I feel sorry for the staff on the doors to those sort of venues having the hassle of having to check a pointless app to see that person has had the vaccines.

I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.

Because they have to deal with the longer checking in time so longer queues and ' comments ' about the slow moving queue / longer wait then the reaction of any who they have to refuse.
 

Yew

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I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.
The fact that at almost 30, I am regularly asked to prove that I am over 18 is abhorrent and disproportionate.

And that’s before we get onto the idea that they simply have no epidemiological effect, as admitted by the Spanish government, and the House of Commons Select Committee for Constitutional Affairs.
 

DelayRepay

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I don’t see how checking someone’s pass is any more gruelling than checking someone’s ID to prove they’re over 18 if they look under 25.

I went to an event (about 1,000 people) where we had to show either a vaccine pass or proof of negative LFT (the NHS text message). They were clear about what was needed.

It took ages to get in. Some people didn't have what was required, some people had brought the wrong thing. Some people had brought the actual LFT test but not registered the result. Some had brought photos of their LFT. Some had problems with internet connections. Everyone took longer because tickets were also electronic, so people had to switch between their ticket and Covid proof. So the time spent queueing outside in the cold and rain was longer.

And all this for something that will make no difference whatsoever to Covid transmission.
 

richa2002

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Since LFTs are self-reported, that makes the entire regime completely useless in a stroke.
This tells you everything. LFTs are just a softener and despite being self-reported, still requires the person to show their "papers" to enter said events, hence normalising the idea of having to publicly prove your health status. This whole thing is just a normalisation of having papers that you need to present to participate in normal life. It's events now but you can bet your bottom dollar it will extend to restaurants/pubs/non-essenial shops before you know it. One small step at a time.

Before you know it, you have a quasi-social credit system and that freedom you once enjoyed in 2019 is but a distant memory, whilst those men who gave up their lives in two world wars stir in their grave at the weakness and sheer stupidity of those alive now repeating the same mistakes of the past.
 

DelayRepay

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For the second day in a row, the government website has run out of LFTs. This isn't going well, is it?
 

duncanp

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For the second day in a row, the government website has run out of LFTs. This isn't going well, is it?

Every cloud has a silver lining though.

If people are unable to test themselves, then they won't show up in the statistics as "cases".

Which should make more restrictions harder to justify.
 

AlterEgo

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The fact that at almost 30, I am regularly asked to prove that I am over 18 is abhorrent and disproportionate.
I’d take it as a compliment!

And that’s before we get onto the idea that they simply have no epidemiological effect, as admitted by the Spanish government, and the House of Commons Select Committee for Constitutional Affairs.
Indeed they have literally no practical purpose. They’re about the dumbest of all the non-clinical interventions available.
 

brad465

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Every cloud has a silver lining though.

If people are unable to test themselves, then they won't show up in the statistics as "cases".

Which should make more restrictions harder to justify.
Eventually that will be the case, but I would expect a surge for a few days before this, from all the test results due to the rapid demand being more concentrated.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Every cloud has a silver lining though.

If people are unable to test themselves, then they won't show up in the statistics as "cases".

Which should make more restrictions harder to justify.
Yes but it will have a counter effect of driving up positivity rates as well presuming people report there self administered LFT.

Anyhow the measure that matters is what is happening with hospitalisations and that has ticked up a bit but then so have cases so that's not surprising especially given time of year when respiratory viruses generally reach the peak.
 

Bikeman78

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Regardless of how inconvenient this pass is, one only needs to look to the continent to see they don't appear to be having any effect on infection rates; countries like Germany have recently had record high case peaks, despite some form of covid pass being in place for months. In fact, one only needs to look to Wales and Scotland to see they don't seem to be effective for similar reasons.
If those in charge believe that vaccine passports work, why has the Sterophonics been cancelled in Cardiff this weekend?
 

WelshBluebird

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If those in charge believe that vaccine passports work, why has the Sterophonics been cancelled in Cardiff this weekend?
Ask the promotors of the event given they are the ones that cancelled it (nothing to do with "those in charge").
 

Bikeman78

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Ask the promotors of the event given they are the ones that cancelled it (nothing to do with "those in charge").
They must have been leaned on in some way. Why else would they cancel? The roads and shops are still busy so I reckon most people would still have turned up if it had gone ahead.
 

Jonny

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This tells you everything. LFTs are just a softener and despite being self-reported, still requires the person to show their "papers" to enter said events, hence normalising the idea of having to publicly prove your health status. This whole thing is just a normalisation of having papers that you need to present to participate in normal life. It's events now but you can bet your bottom dollar it will extend to restaurants/pubs/non-essenial shops before you know it. One small step at a time.

Before you know it, you have a quasi-social credit system and that freedom you once enjoyed in 2019 is but a distant memory, whilst those men who gave up their lives in two world wars stir in their grave at the weakness and sheer stupidity of those alive now repeating the same mistakes of the past.

My speculation would be that it is being set up to fail, alongside the minimum-spec masks (a single piece of cloth is the specified minimum, at least in England) and I suspect the next step will be to drop the LFT option.


Ask the promotors of the event given they are the ones that cancelled it (nothing to do with "those in charge").

They must have been leaned on in some way. Why else would they cancel? The roads and shops are still busy so I reckon most people would still have turned up if it had gone ahead.

I looked it up on the news side of a search engine, this came up...

Stereophonics axe gigs over Covid fears after 'superspreader' accusations

The Stereophonics have cancelled their Christmas gigs because of Covid after been accused of 'superspreading' the virus last year.

The Welsh rockers allowed their concert to go ahead in Cardiff in March 2020 at the start of the pandemic, which lead to widespread criticism.

The band, which is fronted by singer Kelly Jones, were scheduled to perform at Cardiff's Principality Stadium on December 17th and 18th, which included a set from music legend Sir Tom Jones, but have decided to scrap the shows.

A statement released today read: “The Principality Stadium and promoters Kilimanjaro Live are regretfully announcing the postponement of the Stereophonics shows scheduled at the stadium for December 17th and 18th.

“We have been working collaboratively throughout to deliver these shows and have sought clarification from Welsh Government following the latest review on current guidelines and legal requirements around face coverings.

“Unfortunately, as the threat of new variants emerge and the restrictions in place as an ‘indoor venue’, the shows are impossible to run safely and ensure compliance with Government guidelines and Welsh law."

(article continues)

I suspect that whoever did the tapping was a loudmouth with access to the mass media. It would not surprise me if the loudmouth(s) is/are also in positions of authority, or an advisor to them.
 

Bikeman78

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Jonny

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Thanks. So if the vaccine passports work, why cancel the gigs? If they don't work, get rid of them.

Perhaps there is another agenda at work, but I can't put my finger on it.

All I can say is that if I was pushing an agenda, I would not have let covid-derived opportunities go to waste. On the other hand, I'm sticking to what I can prove.

Besides, if Parliament goes the way it is going, then it will be a case of left wing, right wing, same bird (or dragon for that matter).
 

Fragezeichnen

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This whole thing is just a normalisation of having papers that you need to present to participate in normal life. It's events now but you can bet your bottom dollar it will extend to restaurants/pubs/non-essenial shops before you know it. One small step at a time.

Before you know it, you have a quasi-social credit system and that freedom you once enjoyed in 2019 is but a distant memory, whilst those men who gave up their lives in two world wars stir in their grave at the weakness and sheer stupidity of those alive now repeating the same mistakes of the past.
Oh, give it a rest. All it means is showing someone a barcode now and then. Some other countries have indeed implemented it for non-essential shops, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

I don't really see what the difference is with being prove you are over 18 to drink in a public place, or needing to have a driving license to drive.

I think the main point of it is to make the lives of the non-vaccinated so difficult that they go and get jabbed.
 

westv

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Oh, give it a rest. All it means is showing someone a barcode now and then. Some other countries have indeed implemented it for non-essential shops, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

I don't really see what the difference is with being prove you are over 18 to drink in a public place, or needing to have a driving license to drive.

I think the main point of it is to make the lives of the non-vaccinated so difficult that they go and get jabbed.
Only a limited age group need to show ID and you may need a licence to drive but you don't need a licence to be a passenger.
 

MikeWM

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Oh, give it a rest. All it means is showing someone a barcode now and then. Some other countries have indeed implemented it for non-essential shops, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

I don't really see what the difference is with being prove you are over 18 to drink in a public place, or needing to have a driving license to drive.

I think the main point of it is to make the lives of the non-vaccinated so difficult that they go and get jabbed.

So, even by your argument there is a big difference from your other examples, because (last time I checked) they don't require undergoing medical treatment to fulfil the 'conditions'.

It's amazing how some people are happy with the ever-boiling frog scenario. I wonder at what point they'll say 'hang on, that's actually a bit much'. Living in a 'papers please' society may not be a big deal to some, but rest assured it is a very big deal to those of us who have a concept of rather vital things like freedom and liberty.
 

NorthKent1989

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I think the main point of it is to make the lives of the non-vaccinated so difficult that they go and get jabbed.

Nice to see people who are pro segregation out themselves, by the way the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission so vaxxed people will still be spreading Covid amongst themselves.

If you don’t see anything wrong in what’s happening then I have to say you’re being wilfully ignorant
 

farleigh

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Oh, give it a rest. All it means is showing someone a barcode now and then. Some other countries have indeed implemented it for non-essential shops, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

I don't really see what the difference is with being prove you are over 18 to drink in a public place, or needing to have a driving license to drive.

I think the main point of it is to make the lives of the non-vaccinated so difficult that they go and get jabbed.
Please show some compassion for people who struggle to have the jab due to disabilities, anxiety etc
 

daodao

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The concept of a vaccine pass is illogical, as vaccinated individuals are just as likely to be carrying the Coronavirus and be able to spread it. It was disgraceful of the Labour party to have supported the proposals debated yesterday, which otherwise would not have been passed. Only a very recent negative test would be useful in this context.
 

DelayRepay

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The concept of a vaccine pass is illogical, as vaccinated individuals are just as likely to be carrying the Coronavirus and be able to spread it. It was disgraceful of the Labour party to have supported the proposals debated yesterday, which otherwise would not have been passed. Only a very recent negative test would be useful in this context.
This is my view too.

I disagree with these passports because I see them as an invasion of privacy and I see them as coercing people into undergoing medical treatment that they do not want.

But if I was an MP, I wouldn't have voted against them for those reasons. I would have voted against them because they are simply a waste of time and effort.
 
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