Vaccine passports or masks?

[AlterEgo]

Go on any TfL service and you’ll find mask usage is around 40% at best, and you’re right people are bored of covid but you’re wrong in suggesting no one cares about a two tier society which you’ve made very clear you don’t care with your “I’m alright”attitude

Yes, it is probably 40%, maybe 60-70% on the Tube in the peaks, and that's because there is no face to face enforcement. Nonetheless, if a vaccine mandate comes in, enforced at a company or NHS/civil service level, you won't be able to count on such weak enforcement.

I don't agree with vaccine passports - let me repeat - but, if that is the pretext for zero restrictions (including no mask rules anywhere), as per the topic of the thread, then I'd prefer that than having to impose even the most marginal cost on myself to support the vax-hesitant and deliberately quarrelsome. In any case, the argument against vaccine passports isn't the rather catastrophic "ahhhh two tier society" (not that most people in Britain would know what one actually is), but rather "it's quite expensive to implement, is it not, for limited benefit?".

, contrary to your incorrect belief but most people are bored and pretty disgusted at imposing restrictions

I don't think most people are "disgusted", although boredom is probably about right.

on those who choose what to do with their own bodies as they will

I'm bored of that argument, I'll be honest, it makes no impact any more. People can respect your absolute right to get double vaxxed and then arbitrarily refuse a booster and also, at the same time, consider that you have opted yourself out of multiple social opportunities.

, I hope your prepared for the staff shortages in the NHS

Is this an admission that enforcement of any such mandate is going to be, well, quite strong, and that your opening point was correctly rendered invalid by me?

I am prepared to put up with it for travel abroad. If my employer insisted on seeing my proof of vaccination, I would not mind providing it to them. Would I be prepared to show it to enter a shop? No way, but I do not believe there is any risk of that happening in the UK.

I think this is probably the extent of any vaccine mandate or passport scheme in the UK, although I suspect large events may fall also into the net.

I don't think there is any realistic prospect of "having to show a passport to buy fruit and veg", as some people are hyperventilating about.

 

[greyman42]

Yes, it is probably 40%, maybe 60-70% on the Tube in the peaks, and that's because there is no face to face enforcement. Nonetheless, if a vaccine mandate comes in, enforced at a company or NHS/civil service level, you won't be able to count on such weak enforcement.

I would be quite happy for mandatory vaccinations to come in if it meant no restrictions whatsoever. Obviously, those unable to take the vaccine would not be disadvantaged.

 

[yorkie]

Proof of vaccination for international travel is often presented as allegorical to domestic vaccine passports, but they serve very different purposes.

The purpose of international travel vaccination is not to prevent spread and help prove someone is unlikely to have Covid (countries that care have tests for that). It's because by letting someone in (who they don't have to), they are on the hook for that person's emergency healthcare, at least in terms of capacity and opportunity cost; even if not financially.

It is thus logical not to allow entry to someone unvaccinated, even if they could magically prove beyond all doubt that they do not have the disease. They could contract it after arrival and require hospitalisation.

Personally I think the UK system is too lenient on unvaccinated people without residence rights (why let them in at all), and too harsh on unvaccinated people with residence rights (we're already on the hook for their healthcare, and they could have caught Covid in the UK). That would be in line with other countries such as the USA. But in practice it's probably a non-issue and I'm certainly not going to lose too much sleep over the current arrangements.

(This isn't intended to disagree with your point; it's just an opportunity to make a point that I don't think is widely recognised!)

Yes, we are in agreement on this

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't agree with vaccine passports - let me repeat - but, if that is the pretext for zero restrictions (including no mask rules anywhere), as per the topic of the thread, then I'd prefer that than having to impose even the most marginal cost on myself to support the vax-hesitant and deliberately quarrelsome. In any case, the argument against vaccine passports isn't the rather catastrophic "ahhhh two tier society" (not that most people in Britain would know what one actually is), but rather "it's quite expensive to implement, is it not, for limited benefit?".


I don't think most people are "disgusted", although boredom is probably about right.


I'm bored of that argument, I'll be honest, it makes no impact any more. People can respect your absolute right to get double vaxxed and then arbitrarily refuse a booster and also, at the same time, consider that you have opted yourself out of multiple social opportunities.


Is this an admission that enforcement of any such mandate is going to be, well, quite strong, and that your opening point was correctly rendered invalid by me?


I think this is probably the extent of any vaccine mandate or passport scheme in the UK, although I suspect large events may fall also into the net.

I don't think there is any realistic prospect of "having to show a passport to buy fruit and veg", as some people are hyperventilating about.

Vaccine passports weren’t a reality 2 years ago and now they’re here, I don’t think it’s so much hyperventilating as you put it as more worried about a ‘papers please’ society we seem to be heading for.

as for your point regarding most people not knowing what a two tier society in Britain entails I would say your partly wrong, my grandparents in the 50s and 60s on my Black side had to contend with signs saying “No Blacks, No Irish” true it’s not quite a two tier society and it wasn’t widespread but it’s partial segregation and it was legal to excluded certain undesirable groups, I thought we moved past that point? Apparently a minor respiratory virus throws that out the window, the black community is one of the most vaccine hesitant, such a policy would effect them most.

I would be quite happy for mandatory vaccinations to come in if it meant no restrictions whatsoever. Obviously, those unable to take the vaccine would not be disadvantaged.

Why settle for that? As I said earlier masks will eventually go away, vaccine passports will evolve into ID cards and will be here to stay, there’s no getting rid of them.

I don't think it is fair to criticise @AlterEgo's "attitude"; I think we need to be careful to read what he is actually saying.

Why is it unfair?

 

[nw1]

Proof of vaccination for international travel is often presented as allegorical to domestic vaccine passports, but they serve very different purposes.

The purpose of international travel vaccination is not to prevent spread and help prove someone is unlikely to have Covid (countries that care have tests for that). It's because by letting someone in (who they don't have to), they are on the hook for that person's emergency healthcare, at least in terms of capacity and opportunity cost; even if not financially.

It is thus logical not to allow entry to someone unvaccinated, even if they could magically prove beyond all doubt that they do not have the disease. They could contract it after arrival and require hospitalisation.

Personally I think the UK system is too lenient on unvaccinated people without residence rights (why let them in at all),

I'm not very convinced of this. A small number of unvaccinated foreigners are not going to make any significant difference to the number of people in hospital, so that to me looks like stopping people entering for the sake of it.

If you have 1000 people in hospital and letting unvaccinated foreigners in makes that 1001, that is negligible difference. It sounds rather like the arguments for banning solitary activities such as countryside walks in areas other than your home area during lockdown because there might be a tiny, tiny increase in cases if you're very unlucky and somehow come in close contact with a large crowd of people.

And how long do you bar unvaccinated foreigners entering the UK for?

 

[AlterEgo]

Vaccine passports weren’t a reality 2 years ago and now they’re here

But Covid wasn’t here two years ago either.

I don’t think it’s so much hyperventilating as you put it as more worried about a ‘papers please’ society we seem to be heading for.

It doesn’t appear to be anything like as dystopian from where I’m standing.

, the black community is one of the most vaccine hesitant, such a policy would effect them most.

Black and minority ethnic people are at the highest risk of death and serious illness from Covid, so I agree - it would affect them the most, in encouraging more of them to be protected.

In any case, I don’t see why I should be expected to make even the smallest compromise for people who plain don’t want to get vaccinated; you haven’t even attempted to explain why I should.

Vaccine passports are unlikely to evolve into ID cards and even if they do I don’t see how this is necessarily a bad thing. I’m generally of the opinion a free national ID card would be a good thing.

 

[MikeWM]

I must admit I find it fascinating/terrifying that anyone thinks a society with ‘vaccine passports’, which will inevitably quickly expand in scope to become a social credit system, is a way to get back to ‘normal’. There is *nothing* normal in being required to obtain and produce government permission to do everyday activities.

It is also fascinating/terrifying to see people willing to embrace these things while acknowledging that they are useless at their supposed purpose, simply apparently to punish those who, for whatever reason, have made a different choice as to what to do with their own body.

It is, sadly, increasingly apparent to see how many of the atrocities of history have occurred - as indeed, most people do ‘take the path of least resistance’, however problematic that is.

I’d also add that I’ve been to 20 or so countries, including living in the USA for a while, and have never been required to show proof of vaccination (against rather more serious diseases than Covid). So the idea that this is ‘normal’ is just wrong.

Finally, I think it is well-known around here that I’m not vaccinated, and have no particular intention of changing that any time soon. But the more I am coerced or ridiculed for my position, the more I’m going to be determined to stick to this position. And yes, I’m prepared to lose my job over it if necessary, though as I rather like my job I very much hope it won’t be, because some things are sufficiently wrong that they have to be resisted. Any suggestion that the whims of the state take precedence over my bodily autonomy is very much one of the most important things to resist. If that means people ‘lose patience’ with me, I don’t believe that’s my problem.

 

[AlterEgo]

I must admit I find it fascinating/terrifying that anyone thinks a society with ‘vaccine passports’, which will inevitably quickly expand in scope to become a social credit system

So you keep saying. I don't think a Chinese social credit system is likely at all, and I think you have an active imagination.

It is also fascinating/terrifying to see people willing to embrace these things while acknowledging that they are useless at their supposed purpose, simply apparently to punish those who, for whatever reason, have made a different choice as to what to do with their own body.

It wouldn't be punishment, but rather a willing choice made by people like you, who have apparently done all the research. You freely admit you would prefer to lose your job and everything that goes with it, on the basis you believe you are safer without the vaccine. This is entirely your right to choose.

It is, sadly, increasingly apparent to see how many of the atrocities of history have occurred - as indeed, most people do ‘take the path of least resistance’, however problematic that is.

One of the recurring themes around vax-hesitancy and vax-refusal is equating every government in the world's public health drive with historical atrocities, dog-whistling things like the complicity of the German public with the Holocaust. It is grossly distasteful, offensive, and marks the movement out as intellectually dishonest and bad-faith. It's also partly why in the UK, vax-refusal is a minority movement.

I’d also add that I’ve been to 20 or so countries, including living in the USA for a while, and have never been required to show proof of vaccination (against rather more serious diseases than Covid). So the idea that this is ‘normal’ is just wrong.

Nobody has had to show proof of vaccine in an everyday setting before. Nobody is suggesting that is commonplace.

What is entirely normal is making a determination on your health status to enter a country. The Yellow Card has been around for years. Even in the US, you cannot enter under the VWP if you have a mental disorder, or are carrying TB, for example - you must apply for a visa in many cases.

Finally, I think it is well-known around here that I’m not vaccinated, and have no particular intention of changing that any time soon. But the more I am coerced or ridiculed for my position, the more I’m going to be determined to stick to this position.

Yes, this is very rational(!). You have spent months and months posting eloquently on how and why you won't get vaccinated, and you think the whole Covid thing is an overblown sham, yet it seems the more isolated your opinion becomes, the less likely you are to change it.

I freely admit my human tendency to vacillate and have ended up treating the restriction landscape in the UK as mostly transactional. I disagree with many of the restrictions, but none so strongly I will not make even a minimum level of effort to comply with them.

And yes, I’m prepared to lose my job over it if necessary, though as I rather like my job I very much hope it won’t be, because some things are sufficiently wrong that they have to be resisted. Any suggestion that the whims of the state take precedence over my bodily autonomy is very much one of the most important things to resist. If that means people ‘lose patience’ with me, I don’t believe that’s my problem.

Indeed, it is not your problem at all. But all I am saying is, don't expect strangers to care if they are offered the option between being a) vaccinated and removing all mask restrictions, and b) plodding along and having masks back for the winter.

Vaccine passports are being discussed and not exactly rebutted by the general public because they're ground down and bored and the anti-vaxxers lost the argument from very early on.

 

[Cdd89]

vaccine passports’, which will inevitably quickly expand in scope to become a social credit system

I absolutely agree that this is a credible and serious threat. But I think there would be early warning signs.

The current passports, both in the U.K. and in the places I’ve tried it abroad, are passive documents; furthermore, the verification app does not connect to the internet, or store data beyond showing it on screen for a few seconds.

In every way that matters, the passports are no different from a holographed embossed secure piece of paper where a human checks the authenticity. The only difference is that a computer checks the authenticity instead.

So the only risk is that the business you are visiting (the person who is scanning) abuses the data in some way. Even there, each app only displays limited information (like letters from names in the Dutch app, and threatening warnings if you take a screenshot in the French app).

If any of the following happened:

• The apps checked scanned passes online
• The scan history was logged and sent somewhere
• Venues were required to write down the details manually

Then I would be with you in being up in arms. But sounding the alarm too early arguably isn’t helpful.

 

[NorthKent1989]

But Covid wasn’t here two years ago either.


It doesn’t appear to be anything like as dystopian from where I’m standing.


Black and minority ethnic people are at the highest risk of death and serious illness from Covid, so I agree - it would affect them the most, in encouraging more of them to be protected.

In any case, I don’t see why I should be expected to make even the smallest compromise for people who plain don’t want to get vaccinated; you haven’t even attempted to explain why I should.

Vaccine passports are unlikely to evolve into ID cards and even if they do I don’t see how this is necessarily a bad thing. I’m generally of the opinion a free national ID card would be a good thing.

The first case was reported in December 2019, so it’s 2 years next month.

As for your second point I won’t respond to that because the last two years have been very dystopian.

I noticed you conveniently side stepped my point regard black people being the most effected by the passports, and why are BAME people more effected by Covid? Sounds like more media hysteria to me, and after these past couple of years what little, fragile trust I had in the media has completely gone

As to why you shouldn’t make any compromises, why should healthy people unlikely to die of Covid get a jab to accommodate those who have the jabs already? If you’re jabbed then what concern is it of yours whether the person next to you is jabbed or not?

Point 5; Yeah I’m convinced of that and at one time vaccine passports wouldn’t happen either and yet here we are two years later

 

[bramling]

The first case was reported in December 2019, so it’s 2 years next month.

As for your second point I won’t respond to that because the last two years have been very dystopian.

I noticed you conveniently side stepped my point regard black people being the most effected by the passports, and why are BAME people more effected by Covid? Sounds like more media hysteria to me, and after these past couple of years what little, fragile trust I had in the media has completely gone

As to why you shouldn’t make any compromises, why should healthy people unlikely to die of Covid get a jab to accommodate those who have the jabs already? If you’re jabbed then what concern is it of yours whether the person next to you is jabbed or not?

Point 5; Yeah I’m convinced of that and at one time vaccine passports wouldn’t happen either and yet here we are two years later

Having seen just how easily large amounts of our freedom were able to be extinguished during 2020, I am naturally sceptical of *anything* brought in off the back of Covid.

On that basis I think concerns about mission creep are highly justified.

Likewise why should any individual care whether someone else is vaccinated or not? Anyone who wants a vaccine has had ample opportunity to have one, and vaccines clearly don’t prevent transmission.

 

[AlterEgo]

I noticed you conveniently side stepped my point regard black people being the most effected by the passports, and why are BAME people more effected by Covid? Sounds like more media hysteria to me, and after these past couple of years what little, fragile trust I had in the media has completely gone

I didn't side step it at all, I pointed out that BAME people are more likely to have significant illness and death from the disease, for multiple reasons. For this reason, one can argue that continuing the promotion of vaccines is perfectly responsible, and as we've seen in other countries, actually mandating them or making them a condition of employment is one of the most effective ways of ensuring vaccine uptake.

As to why you shouldn’t make any compromises, why should healthy people unlikely to die of Covid get a jab to accommodate those who have the jabs already? If you’re jabbed then what concern is it of yours whether the person next to you is jabbed or not?

It's none of my personal concern; in fact, I roll my eyes when I get emails from airlines and hotels saying "our staff are vaccinated for your safety". Yawn! I'm just saying I don't have time for any of the vax-hesitant or vax-refuser discourse any more, because whether it is right or wrong it looks like the direction of travel in very many countries, including our own is one of "you need as many people vaxxed as possible to lift restrictions or guarantee they won't return". Moaning about it is useless, the argument was lost a very long time ago, and it seems that for most people, they want restrictions to end ASAP and don't massively care whether the pretext for it makes any sense or not. People who spend a long time online discussing it are very much the outliers.

Point 5; Yeah I’m convinced of that and at one time vaccine passports wouldn’t happen either and yet here we are two years later

Yes and the world hasn't fallen in, nor is it likely to.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Having seen just how easily large amounts of our freedom were able to be extinguished during 2020, I am naturally sceptical of *anything* brought in off the back of Covid.

On that basis I think concerns about mission creep are highly justified.

Likewise why should any individual care whether someone else is vaccinated or not? Anyone who wants a vaccine has had ample opportunity to have one, and vaccines clearly don’t prevent transmission.

I’m very distrustful of our current establishment right now, I’m just two years, our choices and freedoms
have been eroded rapidly.

And in regards to the bold/underlined post I’ve yet to receive a coherent, argument for vaccine passports, and what benefits they would bring health wise, as you can guess I’m still waiting for an answer.

I didn't side step it at all, I pointed out that BAME people are more likely to have significant illness and death from the disease, for multiple reasons. For this reason, one can argue that continuing the promotion of vaccines is perfectly responsible, and as we've seen in other countries, actually mandating them or making them a condition of employment is one of the most effective ways of ensuring vaccine uptake.


It's none of my personal concern; in fact, I roll my eyes when I get emails from airlines and hotels saying "our staff are vaccinated for your safety". Yawn! I'm just saying I don't have time for any of the vax-hesitant or vax-refuser discourse any more, because whether it is right or wrong it looks like the direction of travel in very many countries, including our own is one of "you need as many people vaxxed as possible to lift restrictions or guarantee they won't return". Moaning about it is useless, the argument was lost a very long time ago, and it seems that for most people, they want restrictions to end ASAP and don't massively care whether the pretext for it makes any sense or not. People who spend a long time online discussing it are very much the outliers.


Yes and the world hasn't fallen in, nor is it likely to.

It was a side step because I never mentioned anything about the alleged claims that BAME people are more effected by Covid, I pointed out how due to a high number of the black community being vaccine hesitant, it would be the black community by and large ostracised from society, it’ll be backdoor racism.

How was the argument lost exactly? You’ve said this a lot yet I know for a fact that this argument is far from over, I work in the public sector with many of my family and friends in the same fields, especially in the NHS, and they are highly concerned with vaccine mandates as a number of nurses and doctors have left ahead of this being mandated, of course the media pretends everyone is happy with a two tier, discriminatory society where the smug can flash their vaccine cards at one another.

An outlier viewpoint? Maybe to you it is.

The world hasn’t fallen in? I think the fact that a number of small businesses have collapsed, mental health skyrocketing, and the fact that Covid is blatantly being used to push authoritarianism is a sign that things aren’t the same and the world for many has fallen in.

 

[Eyersey468]

Having seen just how easily large amounts of our freedom were able to be extinguished during 2020, I am naturally sceptical of *anything* brought in off the back of Covid.

On that basis I think concerns about mission creep are highly justified.

Likewise why should any individual care whether someone else is vaccinated or not? Anyone who wants a vaccine has had ample opportunity to have one, and vaccines clearly don’t prevent transmission.

I agree, I don't trust the government not to mission creep with them and think they will be a complete waste of time.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was a side step because I never mentioned anything about the alleged claims that BAME people are more effected by Covid, I pointed out how due to a high number of the black community being vaccine hesitant, it would be the black community by and large ostracised from society, it’ll be backdoor racism.

It's a tremendously bad-faith suggestion to imply that vaccine passports, or support for the same, is racism. I did not suggest in the least that your lack of support - nay, your complete opposition to - for the most effective measures to get BAME people, a more vulnerable group, vaccinated - namely corporate or government mandates - was racist or would have racist outcomes.

Nobody is talking about being ostracised from society, this is alarmist balderdash.

How was the argument lost exactly? You’ve said this a lot yet I know for a fact that this argument is far from over

Perhaps for you, it is not.

, I work in the public sector with many of my family and friends in the same fields, especially in the NHS, and they are highly concerned with vaccine mandates as a number of nurses and doctors have left ahead of this being mandated

So you say. I can't say I believe that doctors of medicine are leaving their jobs to work elsewhere because they don't trust a vaccine.

, of course the media pretends everyone is happy with a two tier, discriminatory society where the smug can flash their vaccine cards at one another.

Bored of this panic-driven piffle. Hasn't materialised, the world keeps turning, people still post insane stuff on message boards. I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who, almost two years into the pandemic, is still in this state of mind where they are convinced everything is totally screwed for ever and they will never enjoy life again.

An outlier viewpoint? Maybe to you it is.

No, it is an outlier I'm afraid. The vast majority of people are Very Normal and are not on forums posting bunkum about how Britain is turning into China or whatever. There are about 30 people on this whole forum of thousands who bother to come into this Covid area and post. Most people's concern is just to have an easy life, whatever that means to them personally.

The world hasn’t fallen in? I think the fact that a number of small businesses have collapsed, mental health skyrocketing, and the fact that Covid is blatantly being used to push authoritarianism is a sign that things aren’t the same and the world for many has fallen in.

It's almost like for a lot of people, the things that affected their mental health the most was the heavy restrictions on their lives during the worst times of the pandemic. I think, for most of those people whose mental health suffered the most, they just want a way out of that situation and they are not especially bothered if the government decides Everything is Normal Again and you can Go Outside on a pretext that makes sense or not.

The topic of the thread is - which of these two interventions - masks or vaccine passports - would you prefer? I'd prefer to have a vaccine passport because I don't like masks and I'd like freedom to go about as I please, and, to repeat again, I care nothing for the personal cost it puts on people who have now had 11 months to decide whether to be vaccinated or not. The cost, by the way, is likely to be pretty small: "might be tricky to go to a football game, or get on a plane, or eat in a nice restaurant", not the Jim Crow Era you imagine. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, a Jim Crow Era the "lesser class" willingly and vocally opt into while telling everyone it's actually better down there!)

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's a tremendously bad-faith suggestion to imply that vaccine passports, or support for the same, is racism. I did not suggest in the least that your lack of support - nay, your complete opposition to - for the most effective measures to get BAME people, a more vulnerable group, vaccinated - namely corporate or government mandates - was racist or would have racist outcomes.

Nobody is talking about being ostracised from society, this is alarmist balderdash.


Perhaps for you, it is not.


So you say. I can't say I believe that doctors of medicine are leaving their jobs to work elsewhere because they don't trust a vaccine.


Bored of this panic-driven piffle. Hasn't materialised, the world keeps turning, people still post insane stuff on message boards. I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who, almost two years into the pandemic, is still in this state of mind where they are convinced everything is totally screwed for ever and they will never enjoy life again.


No, it is an outlier I'm afraid. The vast majority of people are Very Normal and are not on forums posting bunkum about how Britain is turning into China or whatever. There are about 30 people on this whole forum of thousands who bother to come into this Covid area and post. Most people's concern is just to have an easy life, whatever that means to them personally.


It's almost like for a lot of people, the things that affected their mental health the most was the heavy restrictions on their lives during the worst times of the pandemic. I think, for most of those people whose mental health suffered the most, they just want a way out of that situation and they are not especially bothered if the government decides Everything is Normal Again and you can Go Outside on a pretext that makes sense or not.

The topic of the thread is - which of these two interventions - masks or vaccine passports - would you prefer? I'd prefer to have a vaccine passport because I don't like masks and I'd like freedom to go about as I please, and, to repeat again, I care nothing for the personal cost it puts on people who have now had 11 months to decide whether to be vaccinated or not. The cost, by the way, is likely to be pretty small: "might be tricky to go to a football game, or get on a plane, or eat in a nice restaurant", not the Jim Crow Era you imagine. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, a Jim Crow Era the "lesser class" willingly and vocally opt into while telling everyone it's actually better down there!)

Bad faith or telling an uncomfortable truth, it will lead to a racist outcome, the passports are just the thing that gives backward racists the encouragement they need to segregate people and exclude people under the guise of being “Covid safe”

Vaccine passports were deemed “panic driven piffle” and now look where we are? You can only bury your head in the sand for

Not one person who supports the domestic passports is able to tell me why they’re needed in society now?

Define “normal person” someone who agrees with you and your outlook?

Masks will eventually go away, so I don’t know why you’re so bothered by a piece of cloth but are okay with coercion to get a jab or else lose you’re job, very strange logic

It’s quite obvious your outlook is very I’m Alright Jack and everyone else damned just because you feel inconvenienced, I’ll leave you with this my triple vaccinated friend went to an event and thought they didn’t need to do a test, well turns out they had to, and guess what they had Covid, yet their friend didn’t have Covid so she could enter so after everything they still got Covid and couldn’t attend the event, so you can get as many boosters as you want still won’t stop you getting Covid and you’ll still be restricted and furthermore it’s not the unvaccinated doing this it’s the government doing this, they’re the ones prolonging th farce unnecessarily.

 

[AlterEgo]

Bad faith or telling an uncomfortable truth, it will lead to a racist outcome, the passports are just the thing that gives backward racists the encouragement they need to segregate people and exclude people under the guise of being “Covid safe”

Oh for goodness' sake. Nonsense to suggest racist people want to use vaccine passports to enforce race segregation in Britain. No need to rebut this further.

Not one person who supports the domestic passports is able to tell me why they’re needed in society now?

Well no, I think they're much too expensive and overwrought too for the low level of reassurance they provide, but given the binary choice between that and masks, I'll have the vaccine passport because I got the vaccine. This isn't hard to compute, surely?

Define “normal person” someone who agrees with you and your outlook?

Well, I suppose my parents would be quite normal people.

In any case, posting endless guff on message boards about guff is a very niche pursuit. Most people do not care one way or the other and just want an easy life, however that may be.

It’s quite obvious your outlook is very I’m Alright Jack and everyone else damned

No, it's responding to the premise of the thread, and no, not everyone else damned - just the small minority of people who have had 11 months to make up their mind and have decided not to get it. That is their choice and one I respect and think they should have the absolute right to enforce upon themselves, but a choice I don't realistically think is going to be free from consequence and not a choice I am prepared to support by making even the tiniest sacrifice.

I’ll leave you with this my triple vaccinated friend went to an event and thought they didn’t need to do a test, well turns out they had to, and guess what they had Covid, yet their friend didn’t have Covid so she could enter so after everything they still got Covid and couldn’t attend the event, so you can get as many boosters as you want still won’t stop you getting Covid and you’ll still be restricted and furthermore it’s not the unvaccinated doing this it’s the government doing this, they’re the ones prolonging thus farce unnecessarily.

You do seem to have a personal anecdote for pretty much every objection that is thrown at you, and I have decided, on balance, I don't believe any of these completely unsubstantiated stories from an anonymous account, some of which are fairly fanciful.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Oh for goodness' sake. Nonsense to suggest racist people want to use vaccine passports to enforce race segregation in Britain. No need to rebut this further.


Well no, I think they're much too expensive and overwrought too for the low level of reassurance they provide, but given the binary choice between that and masks, I'll have the vaccine passport because I got the vaccine. This isn't hard to compute, surely?


Well, I suppose my parents would be quite normal people.

In any case, posting endless guff on message boards about guff is a very niche pursuit. Most people do not care one way or the other and just want an easy life, however that may be.


No, it's responding to the premise of the thread, and no, not everyone else damned - just the small minority of people who have had 11 months to make up their mind and have decided not to get it. That is their choice and one I respect and think they should have the absolute right to enforce upon themselves, but a choice I don't realistically think is going to be free from consequence and not a choice I am prepared to support by making even the tiniest sacrifice.


You do seem to have a personal anecdote for pretty much every objection that is thrown at you, and I have decided, on balance, I don't believe any of these completely unsubstantiated stories from an anonymous account, some of which are fairly fanciful.

Having a vaccine and supporting vaccine mandates or passports don’t necessarily go hand in hand you know.

I really don’t care if you believe me or not I’m just telling you want happened and my experiences throughout this period, lots of People on here can come up with fanciful claims all I know the ones who said “there wouldn’t be vaccine passports” are the ones who’ve been proven wrong time and time again, so I can safely say that I take your viewpoint with a pinch of salt going by the last two years.

 

[MikeWM]

So you keep saying. I don't think a Chinese social credit system is likely at all, and I think you have an active imagination.

Good. I hope you're right. But I fear I am. I'd rather avoid going down this route at all because I fear that if we do, we'll never probably get off the path again. See masks for an obvious similarity.

It wouldn't be punishment, but rather a willing choice made by people like you, who have apparently done all the research.

Being effectively banned from society, prevented from earning money, unable to put food on the table or keep a roof over your head? Sounds rather like punishment to me.

Also, it is impossible to 'have done all the research' on the vaccines at this point. As I have mentioned many times, that is one of the main reasons I have not got it.

You freely admit you would prefer to lose your job and everything that goes with it, on the basis you believe you are safer without the vaccine. This is entirely your right to choose.

But at that point it is rather more than just about the vaccine itself. If it comes to that stage - I very much hope it won't - it is about resisting tyranny. At some point you have to stand up for your principles, even if it is at great cost to yourself. To thine own self be true.

One of the recurring themes around vax-hesitancy and vax-refusal is equating every government in the world's public health drive with historical atrocities, dog-whistling things like the complicity of the German public with the Holocaust. It is grossly distasteful, offensive, and marks the movement out as intellectually dishonest and bad-faith. It's also partly why in the UK, vax-refusal is a minority movement.

I was speaking generally. You appear to have brought up the rather obvious example of 1930s Germany here, not me.

Nobody has had to show proof of vaccine in an everyday setting before. Nobody is suggesting that is commonplace.

What is entirely normal is making a determination on your health status to enter a country. The Yellow Card has been around for years. Even in the US, you cannot enter under the VWP if you have a mental disorder, or are carrying TB, for example - you must apply for a visa in many cases.

Yet the fact is I have had a US visa in the past, and required no medical checks to obtain it whatsover. (Yes, for some issues such as those you mention you would have had to also lie on the I-94, which is hardly recommended - but actually having a serious disease, as opposed to being vaccinated against such a disease, are two very different things.)

Yes, this is very rational(!). You have spent months and months posting eloquently on how and why you won't get vaccinated, and you think the whole Covid thing is an overblown sham, yet it seems the more isolated your opinion becomes, the less likely you are to change it.

I've never said that I would *never* be vaccinated for Covid, but that I choose not to *at this point*, or in the *near future*, for a whole host of reasons that I've set out a number of times before.

But yes, if the issue is now migrating from the free choice that it ought to be, to something the state is trying to force me to do, then I am less likely to change my stance in the future, either, because there is also a very important principle involved at that point.

Indeed, it is not your problem at all. But all I am saying is, don't expect strangers to care if they are offered the option between being a) vaccinated and removing all mask restrictions, and b) plodding along and having masks back for the winter.

Such strangers should demand that they stop being given false dichotomies. If you ask me if I'd rather be kicked in the shins or punched in the face, I wouldn't answer 'kicked in the shins', I'd say 'neither, thank you very much'.

Vaccine passports are being discussed and not exactly rebutted by the general public because they're ground down and bored

Which I maintain appears to have been the plan all along, designed to get us to exactly the point where the public are 'ground down' and 'bored' and hence willing to accept something that otherwise they never would have done. As your arguments are showing, it has worked very well indeed, unfortunately.

 

[AlterEgo]

But at that point it is rather more than just about the vaccine itself. If it comes to that stage - I very much hope it won't - it is about resisting tyranny. At some point you have to stand up for your principles, even if it is at great cost to yourself. To thine own self be true.

I don't think any of what is actually going to happen with vaccine passports is a form of tyranny.

I was speaking generally. You appear to have brought up the rather obvious example of 1930s Germany here, not me.

"Speaking generally", of course you were! We were all left to wonder which atrocities you intended to compare the latest public health measures with.

I've never said that I would *never* be vaccinated for Covid, but that I choose not to *at this point*, or in the *near future*, for a whole host of reasons that I've set out a number of times before.

Yes and these reasons are more important to you than keeping your job, and you are making an informed choice, which I respect even though you are almost certainly going to end up being wrong about it. I'd just like to now have to make any sacrifices to support it - that's the entire premise of the thread!

Such strangers should demand that they stop being given false dichotomies. If you ask me if I'd rather be kicked in the shins or punched in the face, I wouldn't answer 'kicked in the shins', I'd say 'neither, thank you very much'.

It's not really going to be possible to say "neither" when going up not against just our own government, or the direction of travel of many Western democracies. And, in any case, it's not really a false dichotomy, it's akin to me being asked "would you like to wear a mask on your face for the winter, or would you like to receive a vaccine which takes ten seconds to administer and is about as risky as going for a 100 mile drive in your car?". It is not a very difficult choice for most people.

I find the idea that the principle is mega-important quite tedious if I'm honest. This is the hill to die on, is it? Not getting a vaccine in your arm?

Which I maintain appears to have been the plan all along, designed to get us to exactly the point where the public are 'ground down' and 'bored' and hence willing to accept something that otherwise they never would have done. As your arguments are showing, it has worked very well indeed, unfortunately.

Indeed it has. I'd like to get on with things and I'm not content with making a binary choice, but if I have to, it'll be the one that comes at no cost to me.

 

[DustyBin]

It's none of my personal concern; in fact, I roll my eyes when I get emails from airlines and hotels saying "our staff are vaccinated for your safety". Yawn! I'm just saying I don't have time for any of the vax-hesitant or vax-refuser discourse any more, because whether it is right or wrong it looks like the direction of travel in very many countries, including our own is one of "you need as many people vaxxed as possible to lift restrictions or guarantee they won't return". Moaning about it is useless, the argument was lost a very long time ago, and it seems that for most people, they want restrictions to end ASAP and don't massively care whether the pretext for it makes any sense or not. People who spend a long time online discussing it are very much the outliers.

I actually sympathise with your (and what I agree is the majority) point of view here. After the last 20 months or so people can be forgiven for thinking “anything but restrictions” as it’s been thoroughly awful for many. People are indeed bored and ground down by it all. That doesn’t make measures such as domestic vaccine passports right however, and I suspect getting people on side with the idea, however reluctantly, through this grinding down process is calculated and deliberate.

DVPs are demonstrably ineffective at preventing covid transmission, I don’t think there is any doubt about that. It’s not unreasonable therefore to view them as a way to coerce people into getting vaccinated, or the first step towards an ID card system (or both). Neither of these things were seen as acceptable 12 months ago, let alone pre-covid. Are either of these things really that bad? On the face of it maybe not compared to shutting the country down. The scope for, and probability of (in my opinion) mission creep however is absolutely huge. Whichever way you look at it DVPs are a logical first step towards a “social credit” type system which would otherwise be completely unworkable in a western democracy. Personally I’m not convinced we’re heading for a political ideology based “social credit” system, but I certainly think it’s possible that the principle could be adapted to monitor a persons carbon footprint, for example. Whilst I accept that two plus two does not equal five, there are in my opinion enough coincidences and warning signs to make this a viable concern. I also accept that the majority don’t care, they just want an easy life and will choose the path of least resistance. To me however this feels rather like blissful ignorance.

Returning to the premise of the thread (to which my answer is neither!) do you really believe it’s a binary choice between DVPs and masks/other restrictions? I certainly don’t. Let’s say the remaining walking biohazards unvaccinated who are actually able to get vaccinated (that’s an important distinction) suddenly decide “enough is enough I’ll do it”. What impact would this have? I’m not sure it would be statistically significant. The lockdown/restriction brigade would still be calling for restrictions using the same old metrics as justification.

Whilst the thread title gives us a simple choice and has prompted plenty of debate, in reality it’s the very definition of a false dichotomy.

 

[yorkie]

I actually sympathise with your (and what I agree is the majority) point of view here. After the last 20 months or so people can be forgiven for thinking “anything but restrictions” as it’s been thoroughly awful for many. People are indeed bored and ground down by it all. That doesn’t make measures such as domestic vaccine passports right however, and I suspect getting people on side with the idea, however reluctantly, through this grinding down process is calculated and deliberate.

DVPs are demonstrably ineffective at preventing covid transmission, I don’t think there is any doubt about that. It’s not unreasonable therefore to view them as a way to coerce people into getting vaccinated, or the first step towards an ID card system (or both). Neither of these things were seen as acceptable 12 months ago, let alone pre-covid. Are either of these things really that bad? On the face of it maybe not compared to shutting the country down. The scope for, and probability of (in my opinion) mission creep however is absolutely huge. Whichever way you look at it DVPs are a logical first step towards a “social credit” type system which would otherwise be completely unworkable in a western democracy. Personally I’m not convinced we’re heading for a political ideology based “social credit” system, but I certainly think it’s possible that the principle could be adapted to monitor a persons carbon footprint, for example. Whilst I accept that two plus two does not equal five, there are in my opinion enough coincidences and warning signs to make this a viable concern. I also accept that the majority don’t care, they just want an easy life and will choose the path of least resistance. To me however this feels rather like blissful ignorance.

I agree with @AlterEgo and yourself that most people are fed up with restrictions and want an easy life and that many people will (rightly or wrongly) accept vaccine passports in some limited situations, if that is the way things go. I also agree with you both that it should not be this way.

Returning to the premise of the thread (to which my answer is neither!) do you really believe it’s a binary choice between DVPs and masks/other restrictions? I certainly don’t.

I don't think anyone does, do they?

They are different things; as you say DVPs are ineffective at preventing transmission (as are the masks worn by perhaps 95% of people during mask mandates) but vaccines are highly effective at reducing the burden on the healthcare system (which is what the big concern is right now) as well as massively reducing (albeit not eliminating) transmission.

It is unlikely that effective masks could be mandated, and even if they were, you could never enforce the correct wearing of them. Therefore any mask mandate has to be viewed in the context of the inevitability that most people would comply by wearing flimsy loose fitting masks that do not filter aerosol particles; this isn't much good since we now know that tiny aerosol particles are a key source of transmission.

Indeed countries with mask mandates such as Germany, Austria and many more are now seeing surges in transmission, and have MUCH higher test positivity rates than we now see in the UK, where cases are falling.

At least 90% of adults in UK have made a sensible choice in choosing to be vaccinated and the vast majority see vaccination as the road towards normality. The purpose of any DVP would be to drive this figure upwards; I do not think it is viable or worthy to implement such a scheme just to get a few more people vaccinated against their will.

Mask mandates were more about ostensibly giving scared people 'confidence' when we reopened society after lockdowns and were theoretically designed to reduce transmission while we awaited a vaccine. Now we know the virus spreads through tiny aerosol particles and that tight fitting specialist masks are needed to actually reduce transmission, and now we have mass vaccinations in place, there is no justification for mask mandates.

Let’s say the remaining walking biohazards unvaccinated who are actually able to get vaccinated (that’s an important distinction) suddenly decide “enough is enough I’ll do it”. What impact would this have? I’m not sure it would be statistically significant. The lockdown/restriction brigade would still be calling for restrictions using the same old metrics as justification.

Most infections are in people who are unvaccinated, despite the majority of the population being vaccinated, so it would definitely reduce case rates significantly. It would further reduce hospitalisations given this is where vaccines are especially useful; any hospitalisations that do occur are shorter on average and with better outcomes.

You are right that the lockdown/restriction brigade (such as those who display cold hearted symbols on Twitter) won't shut up, but they are increasingly being ignored by most people anyway. They are a very small but highly vocal faction who will always moan about something.

Whilst the thread title gives us a simple choice and has prompted plenty of debate, in reality it’s the very definition of a false dichotomy.

It is, and the original poster did say that, right at the start!

 

[Eyersey468]

I also agree with @AlterEgo that most people have had enough of restrictions, I also agree the process of grinding people down has been deliberate. It does concern me though that some can't seem to see the potential for scope creep.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I also agree with @AlterEgo that most people have had enough of restrictions, I also agree the process of grinding people down has been deliberate. It does concern me though that some can't seem to see the potential for scope creep.

They choose not to see it just for an easy life, and that’s where our human rights begin to erode.

 

[VauxhallandI]

They choose not to see it just for an easy life, and that’s where our human rights begin to erode.

Yep the general acceptance is often through ignorance.

 

[Eyersey468]

They choose not to see it just for an easy life, and that’s where our human rights begin to erode.

I agree

 

[Cowley]

This is an ex thread. It is no more…
Sorry everyone but good grief!