Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[MikeWM]

Wouldn't mind it if we all had the opportunity to get the jabs before they consider implementing this, but if they implemented this before everyone had the chance to get a vaccine then that's discriminative. Hopefully they do it after everyone's vaccinated and not beforehand.

Even if we all had the opportunity to be vaccinated tomorrow, do you really want to live in a society where you have to 'prove' your health status before going to Tesco? For the rest of time?

And make no mistake about it, this wouldn't just be restricted to a specific vaccine for a specific disease for long. It is the start of a Chinese-style social credit system.

I've been saying this for months - for many, this has been the plan all along, and the current crisis has give them the opportunity to try and get it to happen. It has to be stopped. Now.

 

[Peter0124]

Even if we all had the opportunity to be vaccinated tomorrow, do you really want to live in a society where you have to 'prove' your health status before going to Tesco? For the rest of time?

And make no mistake about it, this wouldn't just be restricted to a specific vaccine for a specific disease for long. It is the start of a Chinese-style social credit system.

I've been saying this for months - for many, this has been the plan all along, and the current crisis has give them the opportunity to try and get it to happen. It has to be stopped. Now.

Didn't really think of that, good point. It definitely should be stopped.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't get me wrong, I would be quite happy to have the vaccine when offered. However the idea that we will be required to show it to go to shops etc is a very bad precedent and should be resisted at all costs.

I see David Davis has been making a similar statement, so I can't see such an idea going down at all well with the Conservative voter base.

 

[Typhoon]

Even if we all had the opportunity to be vaccinated tomorrow, do you really want to live in a society where you have to 'prove' your health status before going to Tesco? For the rest of time?

And make no mistake about it, this wouldn't just be restricted to a specific vaccine for a specific disease for long. It is the start of a Chinese-style social credit system.

I've been saying this for months - for many, this has been the plan all along, and the current crisis has give them the opportunity to try and get it to happen. It has to be stopped. Now.

I think they would struggle to get it past the CRG. Someone needs to ask Charles Walker, Mark Francois, Steve Baker and Desmond Swayne what they think about it.

It would also lead to even more shopping on-line and even fewer shops on the High Street (independents really can afford to employ someone to check the vaccine passport).

What type of passport is it going to be - if it is phone based, that means those of us who don't have a mobile phone won't be able to shop. If it is paper or plastic based there is the matter of forgeries, it is not in the shop's best interest to detect them.

I think it is nothing more than a threat to get people to sign up for the vaccine because they are worried that there are gaps - there are, often the hard-to-reach, being cared for at home. Also, if Johnson releases the brakes again and the numbers go up again he wants to be able to blame those that haven't had the vaccine.

Don't get me wrong, I would be quite happy to have the vaccine when offered. However the idea that we will be required to show it to go to shops etc is a very bad precedent and should be resisted at all costs.

I see David Davis has been making a similar statement, so I can't see such an idea going down at all well with the Conservative voter base.

Looks like he's not the only one:

That is despite the Vaccines Minister saying just a week ago that a domestic "passport" scheme - allowing Brits who've had the jab access to certain businesses - would be "discriminatory".

Nadhim Zahawi said last week "we’re not" looking at the idea, adding: "Vaccines are not mandated in this country... We yet don’t know what the impact of vaccines on transmission is. And it would be discriminatory."

From https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/vaccine-passport-chaos-top-tory-23498765

Although I don't agree it is chaos, just a run of the mill episode in the Johnson cabinet.

 

[brad465]

Don't get me wrong, I would be quite happy to have the vaccine when offered. However the idea that we will be required to show it to go to shops etc is a very bad precedent and should be resisted at all costs.

I see David Davis has been making a similar statement, so I can't see such an idea going down at all well with the Conservative voter base.

David Davis once stood down as an MP and held a by-election in 2008 in his seat to spark a debate about civil liberties, so he would definitely be against such a proposal. I don't think though he or anyone else would need to pull off the same stunt as it in itself would spark enough of a debate.

 

[takno]

David Davis once stood down as an MP and held a by-election in 2008 in his seat to spark a debate about civil liberties, so he would definitely be against such a proposal. I don't think though he or anyone else would need to pull off the same stunt as it in itself would spark enough of a debate.

That was a pretty spectacularly dumb piece of political theatre. I think the most generous interpretation of it was that he didn't enjoy being in the shadow cabinet and couldn't be bothered with the hard decisions involved in making it all work, so decided to cement his position as a campaigner and token protest voter. However, there are significant civil liberties aspects to this, and it shouldn't go down well with awkward wing of the Tory party, the mainstream of the Labour party, or any of the LibDems. The SNP are only really opposed to ID documents with a gender listed on them though, so they may well offset any Tory rebellion on the matter.

 

[Typhoon]

The SNP are only really opposed to ID documents with a gender listed on them though, so they may well offset any Tory rebellion on the matter.

Might they be interested if there was a chance of defeating the government? (Or. at least, if it was close, it would give the papers something to write about rather than congratulating our Prime Minister on getting 15 million vaccines done when it was largely NHS staff.)

 

[LAX54]

Vaccine Passport: you sort of get that issued anyway when you have the jab(s) you get a card with your name, the date of the vaccine jab, and batch number, whilst I do not see any purpose in bringing one in for domestic use, I can see one being drawn up for International Travel, that possibly has your passport number on it as well.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Vaccine Passport: you sort of get that issued anyway when you have the jab(s) you get a card with your name, the date of the vaccine jab, and batch number, whilst I do not see any purpose in bringing one in for domestic use, I can see one being drawn up for International Travel, that possibly has your passport number on it as well.

Every person who I know who has received a vaccination thus far has received nothing of the kind apart from a "we'll be back in touch in 10 weeks or so to organise your second jab". This may be a Scottish thing, however.

 

[Elwyn]

Every person who I know who has received a vaccination thus far has received nothing of the kind apart from a "we'll be back in touch in 10 weeks or so to organise your second jab". This may be a Scottish thing, however.

I have been vaccinated in Northern Ireland. Everyone here is issued with a Public Health Agency card with your name, type of vaccine and batch number. There are 2 sets of boxes with this information. (For first and second doses). It says “Make sure you keep this record card with you.” Perhaps folk are going to ask to see it? We got the date of the 2nd dose automatically when the first one was booked.

 

[XAM2175]

And it would effectively be forced medical treatment, which is likely to be dodgy legally (not that this government is too bothered by that sort of thing, of course, but there has to be a limit to how much even they can misuse emergency powers).

There is room for legal argument about whether it is forced (ie, you have no choice) or merely heavily incentivised (ie, you have a choice but if you choose no your life gets very hard).

Or the government could just attempt to amend the law and remove the prohibition on forced treatment, if they were feeling adventurous.

Vaccine Passport: you sort of get that issued anyway when you have the jab(s) you get a card with your name, the date of the vaccine jab, and batch number, whilst I do not see any purpose in bringing one in for domestic use, I can see one being drawn up for International Travel, that possibly has your passport number on it as well.

Every person who I know who has received a vaccination thus far has received nothing of the kind apart from a "we'll be back in touch in 10 weeks or so to organise your second jab". This may be a Scottish thing, however.

I have been vaccinated in Northern Ireland. Everyone here is issued with a Public Health Agency card with your name, type of vaccine and batch number. There are 2 sets of boxes with this information. (For first and second doses). It says “Make sure you keep this record card with you.” Perhaps folk are going to ask to see it?

Those cards are intended more for you own records than anything else. There is already a WHO-standard Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis that is used in international travel for vaccines against yellow fever and the like, but I expect any such system for COVID vaccines will be to a higher standard of security in order to deter forgery.

 

[kristiang85]

I am a regular international traveller and I really don't mind proving my vaccination status to enter countries; that's their prerogative. In fact, its been known in certain times that countries can force vaccinate people upon entry to curb outbreaks (eg polio). And I always clutch my yellow fever card close to me when going anywhere in sub Saharan Africa as they can vaccinate on a whim at airports.

However, needing vaccination proof at home is just beyond deplorable. And I'm pretty sure it will be illegal under discrimination laws. Given how many people resisted ID cards under New Labour, I can't see this kind of proposal having a chance of getting through parliament anyway.

 

[MikeWM]

The fact that this is even being discussed and considered shows how far we've fallen in just 12 short months. I never imagined that the structures of western society and freedom were actually so weak, and our attachment to them so tenuous, that we were willing to consider giving them all up for such a slight reason.

It does clearly explain a lot of otherwise puzzling bits of history, though. The parts where you say 'why did they go along with that?'

To bring this down to the simplest level - we are discussing putting in place a society where the government can force medical treatments on healthy people. And to enforce that, we are also discussing putting in place a 'health papers please' society where individuals will be forced to regularly and continually produce their up-to-date 'health status' papers to perform the most basic of tasks, quite possibly down even to the level of basic existence. Forever. Even if you disregard the 'mission creep' that will inevitably follow this system being put in place, those facts alone are terrifying.

And all that it took to get here was a virus that kills at most 2 or 3 people per 1000, most of whom are already very elderly or ill.

I will not live in that sort of society. Only a year ago most people would have agreed with me; I hope there are still enough that do so in order to stop this.

 

[STINT47]

For foreign travel I can see vacine passports happening but how many UK businesses would actually want this?

They would be turning away potential business (especially true if you cater for the young) there would be the extra costs of hiring staff on the doors to check vacine passports and the praticality of enforcing it? It may be affordable and suitable for the big supermarkets but not so much for the local bookshop etc.

As for train travel it would be difficult to make it work. Train arrives at unstaffed station, person gets on, guard says vacine passports please and someone does not have one. Are they then going to call the BTP to remove them?

It would also be a cruel irony if those that made sacrifices by accepting restrictions to save the vulnrable are the last to see those restrictions removed.

 

[Bantamzen]

The fact that this is even being discussed and considered shows how far we've fallen in just 12 short months. I never imagined that the structures of western society and freedom were actually so weak, and our attachment to them so tenuous, that we were willing to consider giving them all up for such a slight reason.

It does clearly explain a lot of otherwise puzzling bits of history, though. The parts where you say 'why did they go along with that?'

To bring this down to the simplest level - we are discussing putting in place a society where the government can force medical treatments on healthy people. And to enforce that, we are also discussing putting in place a 'health papers please' society where individuals will be forced to regularly and continually produce their up-to-date 'health status' papers to perform the most basic of tasks, quite possibly down even to the level of basic existence. Forever. Even if you disregard the 'mission creep' that will inevitably follow this system being put in place, those facts alone are terrifying.

And all that it took to get here was a virus that kills at most 2 or 3 people per 1000, most of whom are already very elderly or ill.

I will not live in that sort of society. Only a year ago most people would have agreed with me; I hope there are still enough that do so in order to stop this.

Good post. It has amazed me just how easily what should be a modern, well-informed & knowledgeable society can suddenly be scared into almost total compliance and actually want the authorities to seize control of their lives in order to make them feel safe. Should any form of passport become a normal function, even just for travel, we will have shifted one step towards an even more authoritarian power, one that might one day need far more than a "health passport" to allow us to leave our homes.

 

[DelayRepay]

For foreign travel I can see vacine passports happening but how many UK businesses would actually want this?

They would be turning away potential business (especially true if you cater for the young) there would be the extra costs of hiring staff on the doors to check vacine passports and the praticality of enforcing it? It may be affordable and suitable for the big supermarkets but not so much for the local bookshop etc.

I would like to say none, but given how enthusiastic some local businesses here were about checking temperatures on entry I'm not so sure. Some businesses seem to like Covid theatre and are happy to go far beyond whatever government rules and guidelines are in place.

In reality I cannot see it happening domestically. In the short term, not enough people will have been vaccinated so it would mean shops turning away most of their customers. I doubt many hospitality businesses would survive if their customer base was limited to over 60s, health care workers and those vulnerable to Covid.

Meanwhile this would be incredibly unfair to the younger people who, by and large, have followed restrictions for the last 12 months to protect the above groups rather than to protect themselves. It is right that the vaccines are distributed based on risk, but it is wrong that those who are deemed lower risk face more restrictions.

So in the short term I am convinced that such a policy domestically would be impossible to implement.

In the longer term, hopefully it will not be necessary - the vulnerable will be protected, the vaccines should significantly reduce the rates of infection and we will have to live with the cases that remain. Nobody has ever suggested checking for flu vaccines before allowing entry to venues - Covid should be no different.

For international travel it's a bit different because it's not down to the UK Government, it's the overseas government. So I can see we may need to introduce some form of document to enable British Citizens to travel to countries where it is required. Even then though, I think it will be a bit like quarantine, where countries will apply different rules based on the infection rates in the country that the traveller has arrived from.

 

[duncanp]

If I end up being discriminated against because I haven't been offered a vaccine, I will be very annoyed.

The Government is telling us that shops/hospitality etc will be opened when it is "safe" to do so for society, in which case the risk of going to one will be to the individual.

It's not the states job to protect me from myself by denying me access to shops and services.

It would seem that Dominic Raab's leak to the press yesterday about vaccine passports being required to go to the pub hasn't gone down too well, as that has now been contradicted by Matt Hancock this morning.

From the Telegraph live feed:-

Vaccine passports are not being considered for domestic use, Matt Hancock has confirmed, after Dominic Raab sparked concern with his comments over the weekend.

The Foreign Secretary suggested the Government was looking at the use of domestic vaccine passports being required to enter shops, pubs and restaurants, but the Health Secretary insisted this is not the case.

But Mr Hancock did say that countries were "actively floating" them as a concept for international travel.

The Health Secretary said: "Some countries around the world are considering bringing in rules saying you can only travel if you have been vaccinated. They are actively floating these ideas

"In that case it will be important for people to show they have been vaccinated in order to travel. We are working with countries around the world... we want Brits to be able to travel to those countries."

Expect a lot more of these leaks from "government sources" before the announcement next week.

 

[kristiang85]

The only thing that I can think of that is remotely acceptable is that a form of test and trace will be active whilst the vaccination programme is going on, and your app will know if you've been vaccinated or not when you check into a venue (which is kept private from the venue) so it knows who to prioritise alerts to. But it should be scrapped the moment the programme is finished.

But even something like that is unnecessary, given how we live with other conditions flying around.

 

[LAX54]

Every person who I know who has received a vaccination thus far has received nothing of the kind apart from a "we'll be back in touch in 10 weeks or so to organise your second jab". This may be a Scottish thing, however.

I have a card stating my name, the type / brand of vaccine and the batch number and the date administered. its issued by the NHS and says on one side 'keep this with you'

I do not approve of a 'passport' for domestic use, and I do not think anyone would, although we had ID coming out of our ears I think ! But see no issue with them for International Travel, which would be introduced by the Country that you are heading for rather than the UK Government, but if that Country said we need proof, then so be it !
As many have said you need various documented jabs for some Countries now, so what is the difference ?

 

[nlogax]

As many have said you need various documented jabs for some Countries now, so what is the difference ?

I think the only difference would be the scale of implementation. It's safe to assume most countries would want to enforce vaccination proof for COVID-19. As far as I can tell there are fewer than twenty countries that require proof of Yellow Fever jabs.

 

[Yew]

As many have said you need various documented jabs for some Countries now, so what is the difference ?

Those vaccines aren't in limited supply, with distribution being highly prioritised by the Government?
The virus is already in circulation in most countries?
The vaccines have limited evidence that they prevent transmission?

 

[takno]

It's safe to assume most countries would want to enforce vaccination proof for COVID-19.

Maybe for the next six months. By the time they could actually get a decent system in place I suspect that a large proportion of countries wouldn't actually be that bothered.

 

[_toommm_]

The thing that annoys me personally about COVID passports is that young people (such as myself) will suffer for a lot longer. We'll have to put up with not being allowed in pubs, not being allowed abroad, for much longer; as the vaccine timeline has us at the lowest priority.

Young people have already suffered enough with having school and university cut (especially so with me paying around £14,000p/a for uni and rent combined). It might be as late as Christmas at this rate by the time I get my second vaccine shot, and I'd rather not live the way we're currently living for another 10 months when others allowed free reign.

I'll preface this by saying this doesn't apply to all old people, but the older people I encounter in my job are already up themselves and fragrantly bending the rules, so I don't want to have another 10 months of them taking the mickey whilst I'm working unvacccinated.

 

[Bikeman78]

Even if we all had the opportunity to be vaccinated tomorrow, do you really want to live in a society where you have to 'prove' your health status before going to Tesco? For the rest of time?

In practical terms, how would it even work? Mutations have been mentioned many times, along with the need to update vaccines. What happens when a new vaccine comes out? Will there be a six month grace period whilst everyone has the update? Will you still need to prove that you have had the previous version?

 

[Bantamzen]

BoJo is currently pouring cold water on the idea of vaccination passports being needed for domestic activities:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56067401 (@12:45)

Boris Johnson says he has no plans to introduce so-called vaccine passports for people going to the pub and other locations.

Coronavirus immunity passports might be required for foreign travel, but they're not thought to be necessary for UK-based activities.

The PM said: "I think inevitably there will be great interest in ideas like, can you show that you had a vaccination against Covid, in the way that you sometimes have to show you have had a vaccination against yellow fever or other diseases in order to travel somewhere.

"I think that is going to be very much in the mix down the road, I think that is going to happen.

"What I don't think we will have in this country is - as it were - vaccination passports to allow you to go to, say, the pub or something like that."

 

[DB]

BoJo is currently pouring cold water on the idea of vaccination passports being needed for domestic activities:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56067401 (@12:45)

That itself is worrying - we know what often happens shortly after he denies that he's going to do sometime...

 

[kez19]

BoJo is currently pouring cold water on the idea of vaccination passports being needed for domestic activities:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56067401 (@12:45)

Yet this was floated around months ago, the other is the apps on your phone model ie Apple/Google Play.

I would throw the question the other way, if “passport” is not needed domestically then why are we still closed? Gyms, restaurants etc? (something isn’t right)

I see as mentioned above in terms of booklet of vaccination (have one), so what is it just wasting money? (my question is more aimed at our politicians and governments)

In practical terms, how would it even work? Mutations have been mentioned many times, along with the need to update vaccines. What happens when a new vaccine comes out? Will there be a six month grace period whilst everyone has the update? Will you still need to prove that you have had the previous version?

Yet why is it my business what your medical history is including COVID-19 vaccination? (if I ran a business)

 

[Yew]

There is still no epidemiological need to prove vaccination to cross borders, this is endemic in most countries, and border restrictions in such cases are nationalistic drum beating, rather than scientifically based policies.

 

[londonteacher]

There is still no epidemiological need to prove vaccination to cross borders, this is endemic in most countries, and border restrictions in such cases are nationalistic drum beating, rather than scientifically based policies.

Agreed but countries do have the right to create their own entry requirements.

 

[Yew]

Agreed but countries do have the right to create their own entry requirements.

We should apply pressure to ensure that they are following scientific principles, and not political expediency.