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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

MikeWM

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I would imagine if we're going to go whole hog down this rabbit hole then such tourists won't be entering the country unless they've got proof of vaccination that they can show on arrival (or possibly departure!). Therefore recognising all the other apps/paperwork/etc is a problem for UK Border Force rather than individual venues within the UK. I think you can see that trend already in the the Red, Amber, Green business that was being discussed a week or so ago in regards to foreign trips for UK nationals. Go to a red country and you have to isolate in a hotel, amber and you're isolating at home, green you're fine (or something along those lines). I can well believe that similar guidelines will be applied to those visiting the UK from such countries. Come from a Red country and it's isolation come what may. Come from an Amber country and you'll be allowed to go about your business if you have an accepted format of vaccine passport you can show on arrival. Etc etc.

So if you're from - let's say New York - then yes, there will be a check at the border.

Later they go to a pub. What do they show to get in the pub? If it is your New York 'Excelsior Pass' (that New York State are currently rolling out), are the pubs going to recognise what that is and therefore whether they should be allowed in or not?

Or if the suggestion is that any foreign-looking app is going to be accepted because there would be the assumption it has already been checked on entry to the country, that gives everyone a very easy workaround to the current proposals ;)
 
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Even if vaccine passports gets approved to go ahead, it's reported they won't be ready until the autumn. And by then with near enough all adults vaccinated to prevent serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths, Coronavirus will be pretty much like just the flu anyway. By then the numbers in hospital and dieing with Coronavirus will be very close to zero. So what an earth would be the point of introducing vaccine passports? Absolutely pointless! Absolutely bonkers! We need to get this country back to normal again by 21st June. No social distancing, no face mask wearing, and no vaccine passports!
 
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ainsworth74

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So if you're from - let's say New York - then yes, there will be a check at the border.

Later they go to a pub. What do they show to get in the pub? If it is your New York 'Excelsior Pass' (that New York State are currently rolling out), are the pubs going to recognise what that is and therefore whether they should be allowed in or not?

Or if the suggestion is that any foreign-looking app is going to be accepted because there would be the assumption it has already been checked on entry to the country, that gives everyone a very easy workaround to the current proposals ;)

Dunno really I think the whole thing is a stupid idea (certainly domestically and probably internationally). The only thought I have is that you'd be expected to present your vaccine documentation (whatever that is) alongside your actual passport which provides enough certainty that you aren't on the fiddle (people with dual nationalities could of course still potentially fiddle but they're going to small in number). Or thinking about it maybe UK Border Force will roll out a "Vaccine Certification Approved" stamp they can just whack into foreign visitors actual passports. Then all they need to show is their passport with stamp and the venue doesn't have to worry about anything else.

But who knows? The real question we should probably be asking is what makes Boris look good and avoids him having to look like the baddy with the most number of people?
 

MikeWM

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Dunno really I think the whole thing is a stupid idea (certainly domestically and probably internationally). The only thought I have is that you'd be expected to present your vaccine documentation (whatever that is) alongside your actual passport which provides enough certainty that you aren't on the fiddle (people with dual nationalities could of course still potentially fiddle but they're going to small in number). Or thinking about it maybe UK Border Force will roll out a "Vaccine Certification Approved" stamp they can just whack into foreign visitors actual passports. Then all they need to show is their passport with stamp and the venue doesn't have to worry about anything else.

But who knows? The real question we should probably be asking is what makes Boris look good and avoids him having to look like the baddy with the most number of people?

Well, yes to all of that.

Actually I think it is important to not get bogged down in issues of practicality (as I just started to do there :s ) Some resolution can be found to practical issues, or they can just be ignored if enough people don't care.

The attack line has to be simply that, certainly in domestic form, they are just plain wrong and incompatible with a free society.
 

NorthOxonian

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So if you're from - let's say New York - then yes, there will be a check at the border.

Later they go to a pub. What do they show to get in the pub? If it is your New York 'Excelsior Pass' (that New York State are currently rolling out), are the pubs going to recognise what that is and therefore whether they should be allowed in or not?

Or if the suggestion is that any foreign-looking app is going to be accepted because there would be the assumption it has already been checked on entry to the country, that gives everyone a very easy workaround to the current proposals ;)
There is the precedent of ID checking. I have a good friend at university who comes from New York and he doesn't usually have much bother when he shows his NY driving license at a pub or a nightclub. The only places he's ever had issues with it were in smaller towns away from the South East.

So, I expect much the same with vaccine passports. In areas which attract a lot of tourists (or with a significant amount of immigration), most of those checking vaccine passports will learn to recognise the more common foreign schemes. It's more likely to cause problems in areas which are off the beaten track or with very obscure systems from far-flung countries.
 

nlogax

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Or thinking about it maybe UK Border Force will roll out a "Vaccine Certification Approved" stamp they can just whack into foreign visitors actual passports. Then all they need to show is their passport with stamp and the venue doesn't have to worry about anything else.

I thought it would be the airlines policing this by use of third party apps such as VeriFLY or in much the same way they already travel eligibility when checking in at LHR for US flights.
 

jumble

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I am implacably opposed to any form of domestic Covid Passport. Aside from the fact that they would clearly be discriminatory, this would be the final straw in a litany of ridiculous government diktats that defy logic and should be ridiculed by any person with even half a brain.

How is it necessary to prove your health status in Primark, but not in the crowded Sainsburys next door? Does the virus know the difference between different retailers?

How is it logical to require the customer to be ‘clean’ yet the staff who serve you in Primark are of an age that means THEY aren’t vaccinated, and you can still (even if yous jabbed-up, innit?) pass the virus to them??

It’s utter bollo**s and it is high time Parliamentarians started bellowing ‘but the King has no clothes!’

I’m surprised nobody has thought of another flaw with a Covid Passport...

If an app on my smartphone says I, Billy Jones, has been vaccinated, and I lend my phone to Dave Smith, how does the person on the door (who is also likely to be an unvaccinated youngster) know Dave is not me?

A paper certificate for those unable or unwilling to use a smartphone would be even less secure.

The obvious answer is the Covid Passport would also need to bear the holder’s photo....

An ID Card by the back door <(

I maintain that you are incorrect to use the words prove or clean
As negative tests are self certified the certificate proves nothing about the presenters cleanliness except that some people are liars
In domestic settings I do not believe it will happen or if it does it will not last longer than 1 month before being proved not to work
 

brad465

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Permission or not, until or unless there is a realistic possibility of being stopped by the Police, I am not observing any rules
This is one advantage I suppose of the coalition police cuts (the 20,000 Johnson has talked about recruiting are not a full reversal and also not finished yet), we simply don't have the force numbers to enforce a "police state", hence why enforcement over the last year has been relatively low.
 

duncanp

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In domestic settings I do not believe it will happen or if it does it will not last longer than 1 month before being proved not to work

Another problem for domestic settings is whether vaccine passports are:-
  • Compulsory - the venue must check your COVID status before entry
  • Optional - the venue is allowed to check your COVID status before entry, but does not have to
  • Forbidden - the venue is not allowed to check your COVID status before entry.
How are people supposed to know the status of each shop, pub or venue?

There will be inconsistency between buying clothes at a supermarket (which will not be allowed to check COVID status) and a department store (which may be allowed to (or will have to) check COVID status)

Or will "dirty" people be allowed to enter a supermarket if they want to buy baked beans, but the minute they want to buy a pair of socks they are told to get lost.

It will be very confusing and cause a lot of hassle for staff and customers.

If there is little or no enforcement, then over time venues will stop doing COVID status checks.
 

bramling

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This is one advantage I suppose of the coalition police cuts (the 20,000 Johnson has talked about recruiting are not a full reversal and also not finished yet), we simply don't have the force numbers to enforce a "police state", hence why enforcement over the last year has been relatively low.

What we end up with could be worse though, if businesses choose to enforce things off the own back (although I can’t see it being in their interests to do it).

I had to buy some flowers to send to a funeral yesterday. The florist shop in my town had been essentially open, serving from a table in their doorway. Not now, I turned up and was essentially turned away, couldn’t even have a sheet or catalogue to look at. The lady was very apologetic - “someone reported us and we got fined”. I was surprised as I thought florists might have been regarded as essential (in order to cater for funerals), but it turns out I was mistaken and they’re not.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the real police, or the self-appointed Covid police.
 

brad465

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What we end up with could be worse though, if businesses choose to enforce things off the own back (although I can’t see it being in their interests to do it).

I had to buy some flowers to send to a funeral yesterday. The florist shop in my town had been essentially open, serving from a table in their doorway. Not now, I turned up and was essentially turned away, couldn’t even have a sheet or catalogue to look at. The lady was very apologetic - “someone reported us and we got fined”. I was surprised as I thought florists might have been regarded as essential (in order to cater for funerals), but it turns out I was mistaken and they’re not.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the real police, or the self-appointed Covid police.
Yes I see what you mean, although would add the "self-appointed Covid police" have at least in part been brainwashed, so I would add the worst entity in all this is whoever brainwashed then, which is likely to be either the Government and/or parts of the media. While the real police have maybe abused some of their powers for what is often just guidance, many are just following orders from those higher in the hierarchy.
 

Pete_uk

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So, what happens if you have one member of staff near the middle of a small shop? Do you only slow one person in at a time?

There are two shops in my town across the street from each other that have one member of staff between them, I wonder how they will cope!
 

NorthKent1989

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One of my friends has been canvassing for Brian Rose and the people he has spoken to about electing a new mayor have in the majority either said they’re voting for either Rose, Fox or Piers Corbyn, very few have said they want Khan back in, despite what the polls say, problem is is that the anti lockdown/passport vote could be split as a result.

But the mood in London is getting very anti restrictions, I only know of two people who want vaccine passports for domestic usages and I cut them out of my life as quite frankly I can’t abide anyone who is happy with seeing the rights of fellow humans being taken away.
 

kristiang85

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One of my friends has been canvassing for Brian Rose and the people he has spoken to about electing a new mayor have in the majority either said they’re voting for either Rose, Fox or Piers Corbyn, very few have said they want Khan back in, despite what the polls say, problem is is that the anti lockdown/passport vote could be split as a result.

But the mood in London is getting very anti restrictions, I only know of two people who want vaccine passports for domestic usages and I cut them out of my life as quite frankly I can’t abide anyone who is happy with seeing the rights of fellow humans being taken away.

Yeah London does feel very much on the road to a 'normality mentality'. I visited friends there last weekend - the first lot we met as a group of 8 in the park, and the second lot we sat in their house for dinner. All very much illegal according to the powers that be but nobody batted an eyelid.

Parks were packed, mask usage seemed a lot less than when i was going in last in late 2020, and everybody seemed to ignore one way systems in shopping centres and stations, including the staff. If it wasn't for all non-essential businesses and hospitality being shut, it would have seemed pretty normal.

And my friends also said they wouldn't be voting for Khan.
 

bramling

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Another problem for domestic settings is whether vaccine passports are:-
  • Compulsory - the venue must check your COVID status before entry
  • Optional - the venue is allowed to check your COVID status before entry, but does not have to
  • Forbidden - the venue is not allowed to check your COVID status before entry.
How are people supposed to know the status of each shop, pub or venue?

There will be inconsistency between buying clothes at a supermarket (which will not be allowed to check COVID status) and a department store (which may be allowed to (or will have to) check COVID status)

Or will "dirty" people be allowed to enter a supermarket if they want to buy baked beans, but the minute they want to buy a pair of socks they are told to get lost.

It will be very confusing and cause a lot of hassle for staff and customers.

If there is little or no enforcement, then over time venues will stop doing COVID status checks.

I dread to think where all this could lead. Imagine if a “dirty” person finds their way into somewhere like John Lewis and gets caught ... no doubt they will be paraded out in front of a jeering crowd of “clean” people. Will the whole store then have to be closed, quarantined and disinfected? No doubt there could be a £10k fine too.

When will the hysteria end?
 

NSEFAN

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I dread to think where all this could lead. Imagine if a “dirty” person finds their way into somewhere like John Lewis and gets caught ... no doubt they will be paraded out in front of a jeering crowd of “clean” people. Will the whole store then have to be closed, quarantined and disinfected? No doubt there could be a £10k fine too.

When will the hysteria end?
Putting a cynical hat on, how much of the talk of vaccine passports is simply to coerce more people into taking the vaccine? A vaccine passport system sounds like quite a lot of cost and centralised infrastructure, both things that a Tory government is neither particularly good at nor keen on paying for. On the other hand, wibble is relatively cheap. Just create a load of FUD about vaccine passports, making people take regular tests etc, and this might make the difference in getting more adults to take the vaccine, especially at a time when there are fears (valid or not) about side effects. Once the majority have gotten the jab (say, > 80% of adults? Someone more qualified could tell us the threshold for COVID), vaccine passports become rather pointless.
 

MikeWM

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Putting a cynical hat on, how much of the talk of vaccine passports is simply to coerce more people into taking the vaccine?

It depends on what you think the end goal is - whether to vaccinate pretty much everybody (why?); or to introduce 'vaccine passports' as a major step towards a Chinese-style social credit 'papers please' system, where everything is tracked by the state, and everything you want to do requires state permission which depends on how 'good' a citizen you are judged to be.

I've made it pretty clear which I think is more likely out of those two options; everyone needs to make their own minds up based on the evidence available.
 

Jonny

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Talking of "permenent restrictions" in the title thread, considering face coverings (or the lack thereof) and indoors, when not seated to eat...
https://planetradio.co.uk/greatest-hits/cornwall/news/boris-johnson-visits-truro/


The Prime Minister has been on a visit to Cornwall after announcing a £23m deal for Truro.

Boris Johnson says the multi-million pound investment will help Cornwall to build back better from the pandemic.


He says the £23.6 million Deal for Truro will help transform Cornwall’s capital into a Connected River City and support its vision of becoming a modern economic, cultural and green capital for its residents and the wider community by 2030.
Here's the image (separately):
Boris Johnson (indoors) at Lemon Street Market, Truro, not seated to eat and not wearing a face covering, April 2021


Boris Johnson (indoors) at Lemon Street Market, Truro, not seated to eat and not wearing a face covering, April 2021

It's not the article per se, it's Boris indoors and not immediately about to eat/drink, but not wearing a face covering either. Either there is something yet to be announced or the face covering rules are not going to be renewed.

Don't get me wrong, I do rather like Boris (as a politician) and I may yet vote for him again (maybe in a couple of years), but either there is something we don't know (yet) or some serious double standards are going on.
 

bengley

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Talking of "permenent restrictions" in the title thread, considering face coverings (or the lack thereof) and indoors, when not seated to eat...

Here's the image (separately):
Boris Johnson (indoors) at Lemon Street Market, Truro, not seated to eat and not wearing a face covering, April 2021


Boris Johnson (indoors) at Lemon Street Market, Truro, not seated to eat and not wearing a face covering, April 2021

It's not the article per se, it's Boris indoors and not immediately about to eat/drink, but not wearing a face covering either. Either there is something yet to be announced or the face covering rules are not going to be renewed.

Don't get me wrong, I do rather like Boris (as a politician) and I may yet vote for him again (maybe in a couple of years), but either there is something we don't know (yet) or some serious double standards are going on.
Either that, or everyone pointing out that he's not wearing a mask and that he's a hypocrite will put pressure on them to drop the mask mandate
 

Skimpot flyer

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Another problem for domestic settings is whether vaccine passports are:-
  • Compulsory - the venue must check your COVID status before entry
  • Optional - the venue is allowed to check your COVID status before entry, but does not have to
  • Forbidden - the venue is not allowed to check your COVID status before entry.
How are people supposed to know the status of each shop, pub or venue?

There will be inconsistency between buying clothes at a supermarket (which will not be allowed to check COVID status) and a department store (which may be allowed to (or will have to) check COVID status)

Or will "dirty" people be allowed to enter a supermarket if they want to buy baked beans, but the minute they want to buy a pair of socks they are told to get lost.

It will be very confusing and cause a lot of hassle for staff and customers.

If there is little or no enforcement, then over time venues will stop doing COVID status checks.
Well it looks like a ‘trial run’ of whether people and shops will comply with checks on entry is starting on Monday.
I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the letter referred to in this video.


It seems Brighton & Hove City Council have advised all businesses that they must ask all customers to use the NHS Track & Trace App to gain entry to their premises, from Monday 12th April. Fines will be issued to businesses found not to be complying with these requirements.

Going to be interesting when hoards of shoppers return to the likes of Primark, only to find this barrier to entry if you don’t have the app
 

Jonny

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Well it looks like a ‘trial run’ of whether people and shops will comply with checks on entry is starting on Monday.
I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the letter referred to in this video.


It seems Brighton & Hove City Council have advised all businesses that they must ask all customers to use the NHS Track & Trace App to gain entry to their premises, from Monday 12th April. Fines will be issued to businesses found not to be complying with these requirements.

Going to be interesting when hoards of shoppers return to the likes of Primark, only to find this barrier to entry if you don’t have the app
I suspect that they are trying to make their own (extra) rules up.
 

Bantamzen

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Well it looks like a ‘trial run’ of whether people and shops will comply with checks on entry is starting on Monday.
I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the letter referred to in this video.


It seems Brighton & Hove City Council have advised all businesses that they must ask all customers to use the NHS Track & Trace App to gain entry to their premises, from Monday 12th April. Fines will be issued to businesses found not to be complying with these requirements.

Going to be interesting when hoards of shoppers return to the likes of Primark, only to find this barrier to entry if you don’t have the app
Hmm, I can see this going badly wrong for them.
 

duncanp

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It seems Brighton & Hove City Council have advised all businesses that they must ask all customers to use the NHS Track & Trace App to gain entry to their premises, from Monday 12th April. Fines will be issued to businesses found not to be complying with these requirements.

Going to be interesting when hoards of shoppers return to the likes of Primark, only to find this barrier to entry if you don’t have the app

Insisting people use the NHS Track & Trace app is illegal, according to the guidelines.

Venues such as pubs and restaurants must provide a paper based alternative.

As far as I am aware, it is only certain settings where Track & Trace is compulsory, and this does not include shops.
 

chris11256

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The NHS app is almost completely anonymous(it knows the post code you tell it) and popup messages from it have no legal weight, even if it tells you to self isolate. Plus you can also clear your check ins & tracking history within your phone settings.
 

DustyBin

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Insisting people use the NHS Track & Trace app is illegal, according to the guidelines.

Venues such as pubs and restaurants must provide a paper based alternative.

As far as I am aware, it is only certain settings where Track & Trace is compulsory, and this does not include shops.

Some people really revel in trying to maintain the fear and abnormality don’t they? It’s pathetic.
 

DustyBin

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It is the same with other councils trying to bully pubs into enforcing compulsory face masks in beer gardens, despite the fact that this is not in the legislation or guidance.

Yes it’s really winding me up to be honest. Petty little people making up petty little rules to try and justify their positions. They’ve never had so much power handed to them and they certainly won’t miss an opportunity to (ab)use it.
 

kez19

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So how does Brighton/Hove council expect the NHS trace app for England to work if you come from Scotland? I see trouble ahead and the party hasn’t started yet!
 

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