Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[yorksrob]

I'm very much looking forward to having my vaccine when they get around to it, but when the population who want it has been done, we very much need to get back to normal - old normal, not some new normal where we all have to show our papers every five minutes (or have a mobile phone for that matter).

 

[35B]

Sadly I am starting to think you are right about this. Clearly some people much prefer to have all responsibility taken away from them in return for "feeling safe". Even if that "safe" means handing over more & more of their rights. The consolation is knowing that the universe is a very dangerous place, and one medium sized rock could blow their safety bubbles in atoms.

If you and others were spouting this nonsense a few weeks ago, I'd have disagreed respectfully with you. But the letter that's prompted this is an assertion of established regulations, in place for a notifiable disease, and where there are legitimate concerns that relaxing restrictions may cause Covid spread to increase dangerously. I think those concerns are overstated, but as the experience of Chile is very different from that of Israel, it's reasonable to be concerned.

That letter, if you read it, is not about having a vaccine passport but complying with requirements to allow contact tracing if there is a spread of Covid. Those are practices at a level recommended (but not taken up) a long time ago, with the result that many including posters on here dismissed the requirements as unenforceable.

I think you’re going to find that a lot of business owners won’t be going along with the rules, the most they’ll do is a paper track and trace system, the majority of this country’s population is pretty much done with Covid now and are taking normality back themselves I write this in an opticians in London, zero social distancing, only some mask wearers.

Any businesses that continues with these draconian rules know the public will go to elsewhere to where there are fewer restrictions.

The goal posts keep changing on a day to day basis, get vaccinated to go abroad, but you now can’t go abroad as you’ll be fined, oh and masks and social distancing will continue, oh and the vaccine aren’t 100% effective so you’ll have another boost in the autumn because the immunity will require it.

It’s getting nonsensical



Why are they strange? Just because you don’t necessarily agree with their views, I could say that anyone who votes for Khan or Bailey is strange

I've written before, and do so again here - those "I know" are not necessarily a representative sample. The businesses I use have a mixture of approaches to contact tracing, varying from rigorous to decidedly lax. Meanwhile, I suggest you get used to the idea that science, especially life science, is messy and understanding evolves over time - sometimes really quite rapidly.

 

[kez19]

There are people who love it. They are quite happy to trade away elements of life in return for not having to think, not having to travel to work, being protected from “dirty” other people, etc.

Many of these people are probably the types who didn’t do much before anyway.

Yet in my mind I could well believe it but I find it as to in some elements of media/social media are happy for this to happen and that this becomes a "new normal".

Covid-19 may not be a “high consequence infectious disease”, but it is a real emergency - Full Fact

The new coronavirus can cause many thousands of deaths even though Covid-19 is no longer considered a “high consequence infectious disease”.

fullfact.org

Just throwing it out there.... - not at you apologies seems its automerged to last respondent!

The UK government no longer considers Covid-19 to be a “high consequence infectious disease”.

and their verdict:

This is true, because it no longer meets the criteria for an HCID. This doesn’t mean that it is no longer considered dangerous.

I believe this is a factual site for all things UK Gov but take it as you will.

 

[NorthKent1989]

As I said previously, might not be specific to this thread but just to re-iterate, I was all for lockdown 1, had a dose of COVID and have had my 2 doses of vaccine, however the cynical in me and which is probably right, is the continuing of goalposting. They themselves (politicians/media) claimed that being vaccinated was a way out or "normal", the vaccines for now seem to be a success but still its negative. We must now think of Vax passports to get back to "normal", whats next once thats implemented? Will the government step in to control your internet/shopping/places to visit/see? (my mistake that already is happening but will they give it a further upgrade to 2.0 in the future - papers/app please before stepping out of Zone 1 but still its fiction as we are to believe but who knows soon?) How far are they trying to push the public here?

I'm no theorist, I just question things but the constant negativity/goalposts as well as politicians becoming thick (or clever with this) its beyond a joke, but if people are happy for government to look into their lives then surely WE as the public should know ALL their details too - surely thats fair game?

I am also far from being interested in politics but even the scenario this has played out in the devolved nation approach has to be one of the worst decisions to have been made including the UK approach but again its all a competition though on who wore it best?!

I think the telegraph have reported that crowd immunity will be achieved by Monday, so full normality must now return, no ifs no buts no conditions.

Lockdown 1 I was also for because we were in a much darker place at that point, but now exactly a year on we have vaccines and tests, there should be no more restrictions from this summer outward

 

[Bantamzen]

If you and others were spouting this nonsense a few weeks ago, I'd have disagreed respectfully with you. But the letter that's prompted this is an assertion of established regulations, in place for a notifiable disease, and where there are legitimate concerns that relaxing restrictions may cause Covid spread to increase dangerously. I think those concerns are overstated, but as the experience of Chile is very different from that of Israel, it's reasonable to be concerned.

That letter, if you read it, is not about having a vaccine passport but complying with requirements to allow contact tracing if there is a spread of Covid. Those are practices at a level recommended (but not taken up) a long time ago, with the result that many including posters on here dismissed the requirements as unenforceable.

And this for me confirms exactly what I have suspected about you all along, that is to say I firmly believe you are one of the people in the group I describe.

 

[Bikeman78]

Like councils that have bought in rules on wearing masks in pub gardens

Pub-goers ‘will be forced to wear masks in beer gardens’

Pub-goers will be forced to wear masks in beer gardens in some parts of England as further lockdown restrictions are eased.

www.standard.co.uk

Don't councils read medical advice being outdoors is very low risk no masks needed in this setting.

That's easy, everyone can claim they are exempt. No way to prove otherwise.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If you and others were spouting this nonsense a few weeks ago, I'd have disagreed respectfully with you. But the letter that's prompted this is an assertion of established regulations, in place for a notifiable disease, and where there are legitimate concerns that relaxing restrictions may cause Covid spread to increase dangerously. I think those concerns are overstated, but as the experience of Chile is very different from that of Israel, it's reasonable to be concerned.

That letter, if you read it, is not about having a vaccine passport but complying with requirements to allow contact tracing if there is a spread of Covid. Those are practices at a level recommended (but not taken up) a long time ago, with the result that many including posters on here dismissed the requirements as unenforceable.

I've written before, and do so again here - those "I know" are not necessarily a representative sample. The businesses I use have a mixture of approaches to contact tracing, varying from rigorous to decidedly lax. Meanwhile, I suggest you get used to the idea that science, especially life science, is messy and understanding evolves over time - sometimes really quite rapidly.

No I think it’s the government changing the goal posts, this has nothing to do with science at this point, if science were listened to by the government then the borders would have been sealed shut from the beginning.

The government likes this level of control and changing the goal posts and quite frankly we’re all sick of it, and as I said has nothing to do with science at this point

That's easy, everyone can claim they are exempt. No way to prove otherwise.

I don’t think most pubs will enforce it, but I can definitely see a few more exemption lanyards this summer.

 

[kez19]

I think the telegraph have reported that crowd immunity will be achieved by Monday, so full normality must now return, no ifs no buts no conditions.

Lockdown 1 I was also for because we were in a much darker place at that point, but now exactly a year on we have vaccines and tests, there should be no more restrictions from this summer outward

Fully agree the holding back, goalposts will be the last straw

Just since science has been mentioned, ok then where is the science behind meeting people at pubs - being inside or outside and for the sake of it the numbers too ie six from two households?

Turn it around differently you are told not mix with other households, yet what have most people been doing during this? Mixing ie shopping/work/travel

This is not science it’s control if you look at it differently, why as we the public told to do this but politicians or like Piers Morgan can go on jollies but we can’t or be fined?

Another example crowds in parks past few weeks - people moan about how big crowds were, explain this same situation couple years ago no one would have cared! Yet here we are see a crowd panic - watch a rugby/football match of 30 shrug it off

Edit: happened again not directed at original correspondence (first part was)

 

[NorthKent1989]

Fully agree the holding back, goalposts will be the last straw

Just since science has been mentioned, ok then where is the science behind meeting people at pubs - being inside or outside and for the sake of it the numbers too ie six from two households?

Turn it around differently you are told not mix with other households, yet what have most people been doing during this? Mixing ie shopping/work/travel

This is not science it’s control if you look at it differently, why as we the public told to do this but politicians or like Piers Morgan can go on jollies but we can’t or be fined?

Another example crowds in parks past few weeks - people moan about how big crowds were, explain this same situation couple years ago no one would have cared! Yet here we are see a crowd panic - watch a rugby/football match of 30 shrug it off

Exactly this.

It’s also worth noting that even though there have been big crowds in parks in recent sunny days, there hasn’t been huge spike in Covid cases.

So that means either the vaccines are doing their jobs or we’ve already achieved crowd immunity, either way people have lost patience with this flimsy government, it’s indeed about control and being seen to be doing something and not about the science.

The governments case for domestic vaccine passports is coming apart at the seams by the day.

 

[Yew]

No I think it’s the government changing the goal posts, this has nothing to do with science at this point, if science were listened to by the government then the borders would have been sealed shut from the beginning.

Demonstrably untrue, out pandemic plans quite rightly highlighted that closing the borders was unlikely to make any effect, because by the time we knew about the disease, it was probably already here.

Considering that historic blood samples from France suggest it was seeded into Europe back in December, that hypothesis seems to bear out.

 

[takno]

This mirrors what someone close to the Track & Trace development described to me, that most of the major technology companies involved had been extremely co-operative but the iPhone people just could not see it as anything other than a revenue opportunity. Steve Jobs must be turning in his grave.

It's generally true that apple aren't interested in anything where they don't get their cut, and Steve Jobs pretty much started that so I doubt he'd be turning in any graves. In the case of the iPhone 6 though, they just don't have a hardware stack that's capable of supporting Bluetooth LE, and without Bluetooth LE the whole proximity detection thing doesn't work. The British Government could, if they wanted, separate out the functions and make a check-in only app, but it's easier to just imply that Apple are to blame.

 

[kez19]

Exactly this.

It’s also worth noting that even though there have been big crowds in parks in recent sunny days, there hasn’t been huge spike in Covid cases.

So that means either the vaccines are doing their jobs or we’ve already achieved crowd immunity, either way people have lost patience with this flimsy government, it’s indeed about control and being seen to be doing something and not about the science.

The governments case for domestic vaccine passports is coming apart at the seams by the day.

Whilst I get people are on the bandwagon from the UK Government but let’s also remember even in Scotland Sturgeon too is considering/looking at it but again media are selective, as I said on that part too before if Boris was to push for it, media be on him like flies (be on a positive/negative spin) but be Sturgeon media will either ignore it or praise her for the approach but won’t question the very same questions that Boris is getting?

Now for me doesn’t that too sound like if it’s not politicians pushing it, it can be our beloved media that’s pushing the buttons? Politicians have long had influence from the media ie elections etc, now who is to say the media are the ones turning on them? Hence the change in “storylines” which seems like it’s from a TV Soap/drama or a reality show? (it’s just a thought).

As said earlier wasn’t it the media all doom and gloom in beginning including the government ads?, to then vaccines coming out (appraisal), then numbers been vaccinated (again appraisal) but the minute variants appear, vaccines won’t work its scaremongering again? I thought media of all places would know viruses mutate ie like flu but with this it’s panic stations?

Just to further add and probably mentioned then why do we see ads such as Flash mentioning it’s kills Covid/COVID-19/Coronavirus? Things that make you go hmmm?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Fully agree the holding back, goalposts will be the last straw

Just since science has been mentioned, ok then where is the science behind meeting people at pubs - being inside or outside and for the sake of it the numbers too ie six from two households?

There isn't any on indoor hospitality and that's the tenant of Sacha Lord high court case against the govt to not being allowed to open from 12th April yet non essential shops, personal services etc are. Case on the 19th April lets see if govt rock up with anything of substance.

 

[kez19]

There isn't any on indoor hospitality and that's the tenant of Sacha Lord high court case against the govt to not being allowed to open from 12th April yet non essential shops, personal services etc are. Case on the 19th April lets see if govt rock up with anything of substance.

I hope this and many others against the UK Gov wins as this will topple them (I wouldn’t mind if they done this at devolved levels too)

 

[NorthKent1989]

Whilst I get people are on the bandwagon from the UK Government but let’s also remember even in Scotland Sturgeon too is considering/looking at it but again media are selective, as I said on that part too before if Boris was to push for it, media be on him like flies (be on a positive/negative spin) but be Sturgeon media will either ignore it or praise her for the approach but won’t question the very same questions that Boris is getting?

Now for me doesn’t that too sound like if it’s not politicians pushing it, it can be our beloved media that’s pushing the buttons? Politicians have long had influence from the media ie elections etc, now who is to say the media are the ones turning on them? Hence the change in “storylines” which seems like it’s from a TV Soap/drama or a reality show? (it’s just a thought).

As said earlier wasn’t it the media all doom and gloom in beginning including the government ads?, to then vaccines coming out (appraisal), then numbers been vaccinated (again appraisal) but the minute variants appear, vaccines won’t work its scaremongering again? I thought media of all places would know viruses mutate ie like flu but with this it’s panic stations?

Just to further add and probably mentioned then why do we see ads such as Flash mentioning it’s kills Covid/COVID-19/Coronavirus? Things that make you go hmmm?

I haven’t forgotten the media’s role in this, believe me, those disgusting billboards trying to guilt trip people, and as for Sturgeon, she’s been more hard than Boris has on restrictions.

The media have definitely pushed out the doom and gloom, they need to answer tough questions too.

 

[kez19]

I haven’t forgotten the media’s role in this, believe me, those disgusting billboards trying to guilt trip people, and as for Sturgeon, she’s been more hard than Boris has on restrictions.

The media have definitely pushed out the doom and gloom, they need to answer tough questions too.

I’m the same with this in terms of media but that’s what I fail to grasp, Sturgeon (as you rightly say) has been more stricter as well as playing a one man up manship to Boris in this but the media fawn but be Boris it’s kicking his ass (both of them should be getting kicked from the media in this but as I say media selective in who they like - so long for being neutral).

As for in general with media, OFCOM needs held to account too since they have pretty much went with the governments directive, I personally think that the media’s role in this has provided clickbait (revenue) but at same time it’ll be their own downfall but hell mend it to them

 

[ChrisC]

It's generally true that apple aren't interested in anything where they don't get their cut, and Steve Jobs pretty much started that so I doubt he'd be turning in any graves. In the case of the iPhone 6 though, they just don't have a hardware stack that's capable of supporting Bluetooth LE, and without Bluetooth LE the whole proximity detection thing doesn't work. The British Government could, if they wanted, separate out the functions and make a check-in only app, but it's easier to just imply that Apple are to blame.

I’m not particularly worried about the NHS Track and Trace not working on my iPhone 6, but I would be concerned if any venue began to consider a paper based alternative as an inconvenience not worth bothering with. There must be many people who don’t have a smart phone of any type and not just one a few years old like mine. I don’t want to end up being treated like some kind of second class citizen by jobsworth people on the door of a venue just because I don’t have the latest model of phone.

 

[birchesgreen]

This mirrors what someone close to the Track & Trace development described to me, that most of the major technology companies involved had been extremely co-operative but the iPhone people just could not see it as anything other than a revenue opportunity. Steve Jobs must be turning in his grave.

T&T which depends on a free API developed by Apple and Google? Those iPhone people or some other lot who didn't co-operate?

 

[35B]

I think the telegraph have reported that crowd immunity will be achieved by Monday, so full normality must now return, no ifs no buts no conditions.

Lockdown 1 I was also for because we were in a much darker place at that point, but now exactly a year on we have vaccines and tests, there should be no more restrictions from this summer outward

The Telegraph have presumably reported on one piece of research from UCL, which is authored by someone with a poor track record. I don’t regard it as being a useful indicator for any action.

 

[Richardr]

The Telegraph have presumably reported on one piece of research from UCL, which is authored by someone with a poor track record. I don’t regard it as being a useful indicator for any action.

The actual report from UCL says in its third paragraph: "Much like long-term weather forecasts, the ensuing predictions should not be taken too seriously because there is an inherent (although quantified) uncertainty about underlying epidemiological and socio-behavioural variables."

As with all these models, assumptions made gives the results. They are definitely not something that can be relied upon for any certainty, and they are not designed to be so. As the report itself says do not take it too seriously, it did not deserve the banner headlines the Daily Telegraph gave it.

Report

 

[kez19]

https://www.businessinsider.com/vac...-will-they-work-in-us-israel-2021-4?r=US&IR=T (article speaks of US...but)

I'll just select some parts but you can read it yourselves...

Vaccine passports are set to become a part of everyday life right across the world as governments race to vaccinate their populations against the coronavirus.

Countries including Israel, the United Kingdom, and much of Europe have either already rolled out a vaccine passport scheme or are actively working on one.

Israel started issuing so-called "green passes" on February 21 to people who had received the second dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. Under the scheme, designed to ease the country out of lockdown, Israelis issued their ID or passport number, date of birth, and approval for their health care provider to verify that the person had received their vaccine.
In return, they were issued with a "green pass." The pass can be displayed on a mobile phone as a QR code or as a printed physical document.

Every adult who has been received two doses of a COVID-19 vaccination, or who has recovered from the coronavirus. Children younger than 16 years old who have recovered from the coronavirus can be added to their parent's passport.

Anyone is allowed to enter a museum or art gallery. Those with a green pass can enter venues including:
— Gyms and studios
— Swimming pools
— Restaurants and cafes
— Hotels
— Stadiums and other sporting venues
— Theaters
— Cinemas

I see at this part of the article its been trialled in the summer - is this the reason we are led to believe being banned from foreign travel? (the 2022 date thats been doing its rounds?)

Israel's government has been tight-lipped about when it will start to significantly ease current travel restrictions, which prevent citizens from traveling abroad on holiday. However, it has signed an agreement with Cyprus and Greece, two EU members, to pilot a scheme that allows vaccinated people to travel freely between the three countries, Arab News reported. It will be piloted this summer.

... indeed the truth is stranger than fiction...

 

[HSTEd]

if science were listened to by the government then the borders would have been sealed shut from the beginning.

And how would the food and other products that cross from France in the back of hundreds of accompanied lorries every day have crossed?
Or would you have tolerate the food and other system disruption, to continue indefinitely?

And how many battalions would you have spared for deployment to NI to maintain order?

 

[DustyBin]

The Telegraph have presumably reported on one piece of research from UCL, which is authored by someone with a poor track record. I don’t regard it as being a useful indicator for any action.

I thought Neil Ferguson worked at Imperial?

 

[NorthKent1989]

And how would the food and other products that cross from France in the back of hundreds of accompanied lorries every day have crossed?
Or would you have tolerate the food and other system disruption, to continue indefinitely?

And how many battalions would you have spared for deployment to NI to maintain order?

Obviously I meant shut yo holiday makers, I thought that was clear

 

[jumble]

You won't. And as they are private premises, the store owners are at liberty to determine whom they will or will not grant entry to.

Meanwhile, the video linked to carefully misrepresents the legislation (it's not just Brighton and Hove) as though it is something new, not the updated version of the same regulation that has been in place since last summer, where the key change is that each individual must enter their details for for track and trace rather than just the "lead" visitor. Given that one of the key objections to lockdown measures is that they do not focus sufficiently on those who are infected, I'm surprised to see such a vehement reaction to measures that allow proper targeting of those who are or might be infected, so that the population as a whole can operate normally.

I am liberty to decide where I will spend my money
My understanding is that if I go to a pub for breakfast and give my details and then someone else goes in the evening and tests positive then the powers that be will tell me to isolate.
If my understanding is correct then can you understand why people might be disinclined to hand over correct details as this scenario does nothing of the sort wrt proper targeting.
I think you are not considering that some people who are forced into wrongful self isolation might not be able to afford to eat

 

[HSTEd]

Obviously I meant shut yo holiday makers, I thought that was clear

But that will achieve nothing much since lorry drivers are just as susceptible to infection as holiday makers.
It buys you days or a few weeks before it gets in but it will get in regardless

 

[DustyBin]

But that will achieve nothing much since lorry drivers are just as susceptible to infection as holiday makers.
It buys you days or a few weeks before it gets in but it will get in regardless

To be honest, as soon as the virus arrived in Europe any attempt to keep it out was pointless; as you say it was coming one way or another.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I am liberty to decide where I will spend my money
My understanding is that if I go to a pub for breakfast and give my details and then someone else goes in the evening and tests positive then the powers that be will tell me to isolate.
If my understanding is correct then can you understand why people might be disinclined to hand over correct details as this scenario does nothing of the sort wrt proper targeting.
I think you are not considering that some people who are forced into wrongful self isolation might not be able to afford to eat

Good points.

Plus when things are opened up again, people will want to work and earn money and the idea of losing potential earnings is exactly attractive right now

I know this is the mirror but I just had to share how ludicrous this is

Vaccine passports 'only short-term' before UK reaches 'herd immunity by October'

New passes could allow big events to resume but are not set to be required in the first phase of opening pubs and restaurants - they reportedly may only be a short-term measure before the vaccine programme achieves herd immunity

www.mirror.co.uk

It states that vaccine passports would only be short term until the U.K. reaches herd immunity, problem is we have achieved that as of tomorrow according to the telegraph, so which is it?!?

 

[35B]

I am liberty to decide where I will spend my money
My understanding is that if I go to a pub for breakfast and give my details and then someone else goes in the evening and tests positive then the powers that be will tell me to isolate.
If my understanding is correct then can you understand why people might be disinclined to hand over correct details as this scenario does nothing of the sort wrt proper targeting.
I think you are not considering that some people who are forced into wrongful self isolation might not be able to afford to eat

Yes, I do understand both the disinclination and the fear. That doesn’t alter whether contact tracing is desirable, even if it does mean the policy fails to consider how to mitigate the impact where necessary.

Our understandings differ on the mechanics of contact tracing - when you were in the pub is as important as whether you were there. Of all the risks of Covid, that of being isolated because of someone visiting the public 8 hours after you’d left is pretty darn low.

Good points.

Plus when things are opened up again, people will want to work and earn money and the idea of losing potential earnings is exactly attractive right now

I know this is the mirror but I just had to share how ludicrous this is

Vaccine passports 'only short-term' before UK reaches 'herd immunity by October'

New passes could allow big events to resume but are not set to be required in the first phase of opening pubs and restaurants - they reportedly may only be a short-term measure before the vaccine programme achieves herd immunity

www.mirror.co.uk

It states that vaccine passports would only be short term until the U.K. reaches herd immunity, problem is we have achieved that as of tomorrow according to the telegraph, so which is it?!?

Well, it ain’t the Telegraph.

I thought Neil Ferguson worked at Imperial?

Touché! But this doesn’t have his name attached.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Some more sanity creeping in from DT

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...o-longer-expected-summer-government-advisers/

A third wave is unlikely this summer, Government scientists have admitted, despite modelling suggesting Britain would see a surge of infections.

Senior experts close to the Government have said that any new wave would be more likely to arrive in the autumn, following the pattern of other seasonal respiratory infections.

Last week, a summary of modelling from the Government’s Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling (SPI-M) warned cases would begin to rise significantly soon after the full release of restrictions in June unless some interventions, such as mask wearing, were kept in place.

Some models even suggested the summer third wave could be as big as the January peak.

But the models have been criticised for failing to take into account that most respiratory viruses decline in the summer months, or adequately reflect the success of the vaccination programme.

Oh then goes on to say

Scientists from Public Health England (PHE) also discovered recently that Britain gets enough sunlight between April and September to inactivate the virus outdoors.

However they found that between October and March there was not enough ultraviolet light for that to happen, suggesting another reason why the virus may return in the Autumn.

How many people across this forum have been saying this for over 12 months so with natural suppression massively boosted by the vaccine should allow restrictions to be relaxed quicker. I though am prepared to accept that we may need some limited restrictions going into the Autumn, I know the counter argument is if we just tick to the roadmap we won't need them again, to allow some quicker return normality. That could be seen as selfish but given the evidence that respiratory illnesses spike up in Autumn then we could follow his roadmap only to find ourselves disappointed or we could at least enjoy our lives why prevalence is low and the weather is nice.