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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

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Bantamzen

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Very interesting how do you see this panning out? What happens if the EU say no mandated vaccine but EasyJet or Eurostar insist on one? Do you think the vaccine passport may be a short term fix until the pandemic ends like yellow fever vaccine offers full proof but covid ones don’t anyway?
If any carrier, especially on high density routes in Europe insist on them without it being a condition of entry then they can start counting down to bankruptcy. Because there will be other companies that would happily take up the slack, in particular a certain Irish based airline who have pretty much said that unless countries insist on them they will definitely not be going down that route.

If it came to it (which I think it shouldn’t, just to be clear) they could quite easily lock off the relevant coaches. They already do this for intra-Schengen travellers on Brussels-London services.
Locking off coaches based on health related issues? What would they be labelled as, "Clean" & "Unclean"? I can hear the sound of lawyers rubbing their hands together! Seriously, this is a terrible idea that I hope no-one takes seriously.
 
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Baxenden Bank

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If any carrier, especially on high density routes in Europe insist on them without it being a condition of entry then they can start counting down to bankruptcy. Because there will be other companies that would happily take up the slack, in particular a certain Irish based airline who have pretty much said that unless countries insist on them they will definitely not be going down that route.


Locking off coaches based on health related issues? What would they be labelled as, "Clean" & "Unclean"? I can hear the sound of lawyers rubbing their hands together! Seriously, this is a terrible idea that I hope no-one takes seriously.
In protecting my basic freedoms ie to pop out to the shop and buy food, or have a pint down the local, I would prefer to be protected by the law than the whims of the market. Relying on there being an outlier / disrupter company bucking the trend and standing up for the little man I would suggest is a little risky.

Similarly, relying on clearly published terms and conditions / regulations / rules not being enacted in practice can lead to difficult situations. For example: the "I'm usually allowed to buy my ticket on the train, everybody else knows this and does this, despite what the Conditions of Travel say, why is today different?" story. National Express have never required me to show photo ID before boarding (it is in their T & C) but a sudden rigid implementation of the policy could leave me stranded. Premier Inn have never asked to see photo ID before I get my room key (again it is in their T & C).
 

RT4038

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The EU has been discussing the possibility, and already the issue of discrimination has been brought up as a major concern. And of course there are quite a few EU nations with very tourism based industries for whom any early adaptation would be disastrous for their economies after a very bad year in 2020. But more to the point, why would they need them? After all in a few short months hundreds of millions of people around the globe will have either had a vaccine, or live in a country where the vaccine is so widely administered that risks levels would be little more than those of the flu. This continuing obsession in insisting on testing / proof of vaccination might appeal to politicians right now, but in practical terms will start to pose more problems than they will solve.

Further afield some countries may go down this line, especially those mandating the vaccine to all or those with very low vaccination rates. And even then, some may still be eying those lost Dollars / Euros / Pounds and the lose of tourist revenue might result in abandoning or withdrawing mandating of tourist vaccinations.
You may well be right, but it is a 'glass half-full' assumption, and one with an echo to the Brexiteers assumptions that the EU needs our business so much. A 'glass half-empty' scenario could be that the EU countries relying in tourism, who had very little trade in 2020, will be more than happy with all the intra-Schengen tourism, plus vaccinated tourists from outside. Quite how many tourists from outside will be unwilling / unable to travel because they are unvaccinated is an unknown number, but quite possibly their loss will be seen as a risk worth running.
 

Bantamzen

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You may well be right, but it is a 'glass half-full' assumption, and one with an echo to the Brexiteers assumptions that the EU needs our business so much. A 'glass half-empty' scenario could be that the EU countries relying in tourism, who had very little trade in 2020, will be more than happy with all the intra-Schengen tourism, plus vaccinated tourists from outside. Quite how many tourists from outside will be unwilling / unable to travel because they are unvaccinated is an unknown number, but quite possibly their loss will be seen as a risk worth running.
I'm not sure why you even mentioned Brexit in this? But regardless UK tourists is big business for quite a few countries within the EU whether we are in or out it. Those countries won't want to lose out on that because some UK citizens aren't allowed to enter their country because their age means they are not yet vaccinated.
 

greyman42

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As an aside, but relevant to the discussion on 'proof of things by the general public', there is an article in The Times today referring to a forthcoming bill to require photo ID for elections from 2023 onwards. No photo ID, no vote, end of.
Many people do not vote as you can see by the turnouts at elections so some people will simply not care about having voter ID. If enough take this attitude then government will have to drop it.
 

35B

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I'm not sure why you even mentioned Brexit in this? But regardless UK tourists is big business for quite a few countries within the EU whether we are in or out it. Those countries won't want to lose out on that because some UK citizens aren't allowed to enter their country because their age means they are not yet vaccinated.
Correction; people in tourist centres will not want to lose that business. They are not “the country”, and politicians in those countries will have other constituencies to consider as well, who may be less gung ho. It’s also worth bearing in mind the least vaccinated groups will be the youngest, which is a clientele that is not seen as an unalloyed benefit.

Brexit does matter, because the U.K. is now a “third country”; British influence over those decisions through the EU as an organisation has now gone which may affect how those countries make their decisions.
 

Bantamzen

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Correction; people in tourist centres will not want to lose that business. They are not “the country”, and politicians in those countries will have other constituencies to consider as well, who may be less gung ho. It’s also worth bearing in mind the least vaccinated groups will be the youngest, which is a clientele that is not seen as an unalloyed benefit.

Brexit does matter, because the U.K. is now a “third country”; British influence over those decisions through the EU as an organisation has now gone which may affect how those countries make their decisions.
You will find that in some countries tourism is one of the biggest contributors to their economies.
 

RT4038

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You will find that in some countries tourism is one of the biggest contributors to their economies.
Yes, but tourism from outside the EU will only be a % of that contribution (and unvaccinated potential tourists an even smaller %), and those countries could be outvoted by those to whom tourism is not a majority contributor.

Since Brexit, the UK may be considered in this matter alongside other border countries to the EU (Morocco, Algeria, Turkey, Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc) , or conceivably as just 'the rest of the world'.

Vaccination requirement may not happen at all, but I don't think it can be discounted in the circumstances.
 

Bantamzen

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Yes, but tourism from outside the EU will only be a % of that contribution (and unvaccinated potential tourists an even smaller %), and those countries could be outvoted by those to whom tourism is not a majority contributor.

Since Brexit, the UK may be considered in this matter alongside other border countries to the EU (Morocco, Algeria, Turkey, Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc) , or conceivably as just 'the rest of the world'.

Vaccination requirement may not happen at all, but I don't think it can be discounted in the circumstances.
The UK leaving the EU doesn't suddenly stop the demand for travel to holiday destinations.
 

RT4038

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The UK leaving the EU doesn't suddenly stop the demand for travel to holiday destinations.
Correct, but unvaccinated demand is something that the EU (as a whole, rather than individual constituent parts) may not wish to fulfil.
 

Gadget88

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Israel have vaccine passports for gyms and pubs I bet it will come here next? I hope not though.
 

Bantamzen

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Correct, but unvaccinated demand is something that the EU (as a whole, rather than individual constituent parts) may not wish to fulfil.
Euros are Euros, regardless of the vaccination status of the bearer. At the end of the day the tourism industry won't thrive if countries start mandating restrictions that many potential tourists cannot meet.
 

Richard Scott

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Euros are Euros, regardless of the vaccination status of the bearer. At the end of the day the tourism industry won't thrive if countries start mandating restrictions that many potential tourists cannot meet.
Think places like Portugal, Spain, France and Greece probably do rely to some degree on UK tourists even if it's a small amount overall may be quite major for certain areas. Can't imagine the Spain brigade going sightseeing in Serbia somehow. Not sure loud GM locos are quite their thing?
 

M61017

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Israel have vaccine passports for gyms and pubs I bet it will come here next? I hope not though.
I have heard they are trying to force people to get the vaccines, making the most out of the whole thing. They really have tried to make our life as unliveable as possible, i. e. they can't go any farther. I don't know about the UK but in my country the whole propaganda mess is getting ridiculous, notwithstanding the fact that less people died in 2020 than in 2019. Right and respect are loosing their initial value. The urge of now is heating the souls. It feels like 5.40 p.m. on a fair closing at 6.00 p.m. It is quite hard to imagine they will succeed in internationally registering and controlling everyone. Even if they do, they will have to find enough people to get the vaccine. I am not being naive on the other hand; I am indeed afraid we will not get away with what we have had so far as a war, thus something worse might still happen.
 

35B

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You will find that in some countries tourism is one of the biggest contributors to their economies.
Indeed it is. That doesn't mean that the benefits are evenly spread, or that the inhabitants give it a priority commensurate with it's share of GDP.

I grew up in Southfields, and the relationship between locals and Wimbledon Tennis was extremely mixed.
 

Freightmaster

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Locking off coaches based on health related issues? What would they be labelled as, "Clean" & "Unclean"? I can hear the sound of lawyers rubbing their hands together! Seriously, this is a terrible idea that I hope no-one takes seriously.
Eurostar this summer be like...


o_O :lol:
 

Freightmaster

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Classic film !
As I watched the trailer, I couldn't help replacing the lines in my head...


"66 million people told to stay at home unless they have a reasonable excuse - WHY?!"

"tens of thousands of shops, pubs and restaurants forced to close - WHY?!"

"millions of schoolchildren and students having to endure a substandard education for 12 months - WHY?!"

"families prevented from visiting elderly relatives in care homes - WHY?!"


...and so on and so forth! :frown:






MARK
 

Bantamzen

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Indeed it is. That doesn't mean that the benefits are evenly spread, or that the inhabitants give it a priority commensurate with it's share of GDP.

I grew up in Southfields, and the relationship between locals and Wimbledon Tennis was extremely mixed.
There is a slight difference between a once yearly event and a trade that employs millions of people every year.

Eurostar this summer be like...


o_O :lol:
You jest, but just how far have we gone down that road? o_O
 

35B

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There is a slight difference between a once yearly event and a trade that employs millions of people every year.
Indeed - my point though is that there was both local pride in the event and a lot of frustration at the impact on the area. Similar accounts emerged from holiday hotspots in the west Country last year, and I've heard similar from those with the pleasure of living in tourist hotspots like York.

It can't just be resolved down to the economic value of tourism, very important though that is.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed - my point though is that there was both local pride in the event and a lot of frustration at the impact on the area. Similar accounts emerged from holiday hotspots in the west Country last year, and I've heard similar from those with the pleasure of living in tourist hotspots like York.

It can't just be resolved down to the economic value of tourism, very important though that is.

You're clutching at straws now to try and justify the destruction of the hospitality industry.
 

Bantamzen

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Indeed - my point though is that there was both local pride in the event and a lot of frustration at the impact on the area. Similar accounts emerged from holiday hotspots in the west Country last year, and I've heard similar from those with the pleasure of living in tourist hotspots like York.

It can't just be resolved down to the economic value of tourism, very important though that is.
Ultimately it always comes down to economics. Take a country I often visit, Greece. In 2019 it was reported that tourism accounted for almost a quarter of the country's GDP. That's a significant proportion of their overall worth. Furthermore for the islands in particular rely far more heavily on tourism than the mainland. I once was talking to a bar owner on Rhodes & he was saying that for most of the islands, tourism accounted for anything up to 80% of the local economies. If these were reduced it is likely that those seasonal workers that come from the mainland would stay there and put even more pressure on the country's economy. It does of course make you wonder why some Greek politicians are eager to have some form of vaccine passports, but that's politicians for you, not always connected to reality.
 

35B

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You're clutching at straws now to try and justify the destruction of the hospitality industry.
No, I’m observing that their are multiple dimensions to these questions.
Ultimately it always comes down to economics. Take a country I often visit, Greece. In 2019 it was reported that tourism accounted for almost a quarter of the country's GDP. That's a significant proportion of their overall worth. Furthermore for the islands in particular rely far more heavily on tourism than the mainland. I once was talking to a bar owner on Rhodes & he was saying that for most of the islands, tourism accounted for anything up to 80% of the local economies. If these were reduced it is likely that those seasonal workers that come from the mainland would stay there and put even more pressure on the country's economy. It does of course make you wonder why some Greek politicians are eager to have some form of vaccine passports, but that's politicians for you, not always connected to reality.
To a degree, but politics tend to trump economics.
 

ainsworth74

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If the EU decides that: "only tourists who have had the vaccine may enter the Schengen area" I'm not sure that that's as necessarily crippling to the tourist economies of Europe as some seem to think (which isn't to say it wouldn't lead to reduced income because of course it would). That's still 420m odd people who have probably not had any chance to go on holiday and for whom holidays to more 'exotic' locales are likely to be more difficult than normal and so are likely to lead to more people opting to holiday elsewhere in Europe than potentially leaving the EU like they might do in a 'normal' year. Plus lots of tourists from places like the UK or US or China are likely to have had the vaccine anyway so will probably be happy to prove their vaccine status in exchange for entry.

Whilst I don't think it's definitely going to happen it equally would not surprise me to see the EU decide that it's going to close the Schengen area to people who aren't vaccinated (at least for tourism).
 

RT4038

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Ultimately it always comes down to economics. Take a country I often visit, Greece. In 2019 it was reported that tourism accounted for almost a quarter of the country's GDP. That's a significant proportion of their overall worth. Furthermore for the islands in particular rely far more heavily on tourism than the mainland. I once was talking to a bar owner on Rhodes & he was saying that for most of the islands, tourism accounted for anything up to 80% of the local economies. If these were reduced it is likely that those seasonal workers that come from the mainland would stay there and put even more pressure on the country's economy. It does of course make you wonder why some Greek politicians are eager to have some form of vaccine passports, but that's politicians for you, not always connected to reality.
There is little doubt that vaccine passports would have an immediate adverse effect on the tourism economy. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact? But, as we well know in the UK, not every political decision is taken solely on the basis of the immediate adverse effect on the economy.

You state that some Greek politicians are eager to have some form of vaccine passports, and that from a country for which tourism is a significant proportion of their overall worth. (Accepting that, like most countries, it is heavily skewed in certain areas - the politicians may not come from these). If countries that have such a reliance on tourism can be calling for vaccine passports, what might happen to those who don't (Poland, Czechia, Germany etc)?

Vaccine passports are certainly a possibility for entering the Schengen Zone. But only a possibility.
 

Gadget88

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So despite Boris saying no to covid passports Daily Mail says they will review it in May and could bring then in. Seems we are following Israel and these discriminatory passports are coming?
 

Baxenden Bank

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So despite Boris saying no to covid passports Daily Mail says they will review it in May and could bring then in. Seems we are following Israel and these discriminatory passports are coming?
There are at least 67 days until May, and Boris will change his mind at least that many times between now and then, depending upon who demands what. The key will be having your opinion poll result, or focus group research, on the top of his red box pile on the day he is forced to make a decision one way or the other. Expect endless speculation in the press to generate clicks in the meantime.
 

Tomp94

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We need to resist these dystopian passports. If you wanna live in a dystopian society where the state can monitor just about anything about you at any time using technology/AI move to Beijing.
The passports are fine for international travel, totally unacceptable in a democratic and supposedly free society.
 

Gadget88

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We need to resist these dystopian passports. If you wanna live in a dystopian society where the state can monitor just about anything about you at any time using technology/AI move to Beijing.
The passports are fine for international travel, totally unacceptable in a democratic and supposedly free society.
Yes true but for international travel well most people take a holiday abroad these days so they would be mandated regardless.
 
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