'Valid on all services by the route and operator shown'

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by mikeg, 13 Nov 2011.

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  1. mikeg

    mikeg Member

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    Is the text that East Coast gives for an 'any permitted' ticket. Yet it frequently gives me non-permitted routes. What are my rights here? Surely this is false advertising of a route, or does the journey planner showing something as valid override the Routeing Guide if the tickets are booked through there?
    I seem to remember reading that where there are contradicting terms of a contract those most favourable to the consumer apply.
     
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  3. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Which routes do you think it gives, that are not permitted? (I appreciate you may not want to reveal them in case they get removed!)

    There is legislation to handle conflicting or unclear terms:

    If you are offered an itinerary that looks dubious, I would advise buying it from that website, obtaining reservations (where available), bring the itinerary with you and use the reservations and that gives you the maximum protection you can possibly have.
     
  4. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    The NRCoC say:
    "(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
    ...
    (iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
    (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
    when you buy your ticket)"
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
    There is no link to the Routeing Guide from any ticket booking site as far as I am aware, so the only implied details provided at time of purchase from an internet site are the routes provided by the booking engine. Therefore, if you book via an invalid route, in my opinion the operator of the booking site has entered into a contract to convey you via that route.

    I believe however, that there is a law which essentially says that if the selling company makes a clear mistake, ie sells a ticket for a route which is clearly not valid, then the contract becomes null and void. I'm sure somebody can ellaborate on that. An example of this was the Cleethorpes-New Clee via Wick and Penzance fiasco.
     
  5. WillPS

    WillPS Established Member

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    Did anybody do any major journeys on the New Clee - Cleethorpes thing?
     
  6. mikeg

    mikeg Member

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    I was thinking of that time I wanted to go to Shildon and it suggested changing at Thornaby. To an average person, that wouldn't seem too obvious a mistake as it's heading in vaguely the right direction and a lot of permitted rail journeys take a bit of a detour.
    Also for some destinations in the South it suggests going on the Underground around London when Avoid London is entered. This notably occurs for North Eastern destinations to Southend stations. I can't find this route on any of the maps. Indeed, route 'London' is the only permitted route, although a 'Not London' ticket exists. Presumably this latter ticket is unusable and should not be sold?
    When route Not London is put in via the 'select a route' tool, it suggests going via Stansted Airport, Tottenham Hale and Stratford London. These all seem like reasonable routes, but the latter one especially is not permitted as there are no 'Not London' permitted routes!
     
  7. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Au contraire, Stratford is not a London station
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    That's not a permitted route because Thirsk and Shildon share a common routeing point, and it's more than 3 miles longer than direct. However it is a reasonable route so I doubt that would be challenged. In fact, it's not only reasonable but it could be very inconvenient to change again at Northallerton to take the shorter route. I wonder if there is a hidden easement somewhere.
    Avoid London will mean avoiding London (routeing) group. It doesn't mean avoiding the London conurbation or avoiding London Underground.
    It doesn't need to be. Depending on your interpretation of the "shortest route" rule, there is a very good case for saying that the shortest routes include York - Finsbury Pk - Highbury & Islington - Stratford - Southend.
    "Not London and London are not mutually exclusive" - ATOC.

    If you are referring to the only mapped routes being "LONDON" then that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go via a London Group station, as if the maps touch at other locations short of London (e.g. Highbury & Islington) then that would be valid. Also, the shortest route option is in addition to mapped routes.
    They all avoid London Group.

    Stratford London may have London in the name but it's not a member of London Group; it's a member of Stratford Group.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Agreed, although you link to members of London Terminals station group which isn't the same as the London Group for routeing purposes:

    There is only one difference, and it's a difference that is rather unusual: Vauxhall is a member of London Terminals (station group used as a destination/origin) but not London Group (routeing group for routeing purposes).

    This is the only case I am aware of where the routeing group has less stations than the station group used as a destination/origin. It's common for it to be the other way round. For example, Aston is in Birmingham Group (but not Birmingham Stations) and Micklefield is in Leeds Group (there is no Leeds Stations group).
     
  9. trc666

    trc666 Member

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    All National Rail stations in Travelcard Zone 1 are considered London Terminals, including intermediate through stations such as Waterloo East, Vauxhall and City Thameslink.

    We have quite a lot of people turning up at Waterloo with KENSINGTON OLYMPIA / NOT VIA LONDON tickets for through journeys, examples being Newcastle to Bournemouth (Not Via London) and Basingstoke to Northampton (Kensington Olympia).
     
  10. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Not entirely correct. Farringdon cannot be a London Terminal as London Terminal tickets are never valid there.

    Elephant & Castle is certainly not a London Terminal AFAIK.
     
  11. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Tickets are always valid by scheduled services along the shortest route, however, if the 'rte not London' fare is cheaper than the 'rte London' fare, the latter is valid via the former. If the opposite applies, the 'rte Not London' fare is valid via London. If they are the same, they are valid on each others routes.
     
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