Validity and expiry

[johnnycache]

I've had a look at the fares and ticketing guide but i still have a few questions

1) If i want to travel on a train departing at 0015 on Monday and arriving at my (fictional) destination at 0230 on Monday can i do so with an Off-peak day single dated Sunday (ie the day before)?

2) If the off-peak time restriction is "NOT BEFORE 0930" then does that mean that an Anytime day single is needed to travel on the 0015 but if i buy before midnight i can pay the Off-peak day single fare from the day before?

3) are there any easements to the 0429 rule and (if so) where can they be found? In particular i'm sure at Southern we used to allow travel on the 0400 Victoria to Brighton with a previous day ticket

4) strictly speaking does a ticket become invalid at 0430 and is a new ticket required if the journey has not been completed yet (unless there is an easement)

5) with an Off-peak single (not day single) does the outward journey have to be started by midnight on the first day or by 0429 on the second day?

6) if the time restriction is "NOT BEFORE 0930" then presumably the Off-peak single is not valid on any trains after midnight anyway?


thank you

 

[Romilly]

These are good questions and highlight the fact that the rules available to passengers about wee-hours train travel are not easy to interpret. That said, just as a matter of straightforward interpretation of what is said on the NRE website about ticket conditions:

1) The text on the NRE site is in terms of use of the ticket not commencement of the journey, so the answer is "Yes unless the uncertainties highlighted by your question (2) muddy the waters"

2) Not clear which prevails: the rule that the Sunday ticket is valid until 0429 on Monday; or the rule that on Monday an offpeak ticket is not valid before 0930

4) I think the answer here is "Yes (if it hasn't already become invalid because of the wording of an offpeak restriction)" as the text on the NRE site is in terms of use of the ticket not commencement of the journey

5) By 0429 on the second day unless the uncertainties highlighted by your question (6) muddy the waters

6) Again, it is not clear which prevails: the rule that the ticket is valid until 0429 on day 2; or the restriction which prevents travel before 0930 on day 2.

I know that I have seen threads on the forum discussing the concept of the "railway day" (which seems to run from 0001 on day 1 to 0429 on day 2, and which therefore overlaps the next railway day). But that concept is not spelled out where it needs to be spelled out. At the very least, it seems to me that it would assist ordinary passengers if "Not before 0930" restrictions became "Not valid for travel at times after 0429 and before 0930"

 

[yorkie]

I've had a look at the fares and ticketing guide but i still have a few questions

1) If i want to travel on a train departing at 0015 on Monday and arriving at my (fictional) destination at 0230 on Monday can i do so with an Off-peak day single dated Sunday (ie the day before)?

Yes

2) If the off-peak time restriction is "NOT BEFORE 0930" then does that mean that an Anytime day single is needed to travel on the 0015 but if i buy before midnight i can pay the Off-peak day single fare from the day before?

Yes!

3) are there any easements to the 0429 rule and (if so) where can they be found? In particular i'm sure at Southern we used to allow travel on the 0400 Victoria to Brighton with a previous day ticket

I'd like to know the answer to that too.

There used to be an "easement" for a late Leeds-York train (around 3am) before the rule changed to 0429.

4) strictly speaking does a ticket become invalid at 0430 and is a new ticket required if the journey has not been completed yet (unless there is an easement)

Technically, yes.

5) with an Off-peak single (not day single) does the outward journey have to be started by midnight on the first day or by 0429 on the second day?

I'd argue by 0429 on the second day because that's still considered part of the previous day for ticketing purposes, for tickets dated on the previous day.

The ticketing day lasts for 28 1/2 hours, with overlap.

6) if the time restriction is "NOT BEFORE 0930" then presumably the Off-peak single is not valid on any trains after midnight anyway?

A ticket purchased today which has a "not before 0930" restriction is valid from 0930 today to 0429 tomorrow.

I once got caught out when I advised someone they could buy a ticket to Manchester Airport on the 0115 service... I should have told them to buy online by 2359 and collect from the machine.:roll:

Some pricing managers are on the ball when it comes to this sort of thing, e.g. Nigel at EC:

http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=YRK&dest=NCL&tkt=CDR

OUTWARD TRAVEL By any train except those timed to depart the origin station shown on the ticket Mondays-Fridays between 0300 and 0914 inclusive. RETURN TRAVEL By any train.

That makes the ticket valid on the 0042 York-Newcastle irrespective of whether it's issued for the previous day or the actual day.

If only more pricing managers were like that!

In contrast, EMT's pricing manager isn't quite in the same league, for example she's set this restriction:

http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=DBY&dest=SHF&tkt=CDR

OUTWARD TRAVEL By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0900 RETURN TRAVEL By any train

This means a ticket dated for the date of travel isn't valid on the 0040 service as that counts as "peak".:roll:

 

[johnnycache]

this is the article that i have written which incorporated the information you helped me with

i particularly want to draw attention to how fiendishly difficult it is to find validity codes in NRE

please let me know if you find any errors


when is my ticket valid?

1) Anytime DAY single

Valid for travel at any time on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 on the following day

All travel must be completed by 0429 on day 2 unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement") allowing later completion of the journey

2) Off-peak DAY single (or Super Off-peak DAY single)

Valid for travel at times that are unrestricted for Off-peak DAY (or Super Off-peak DAY) tickets on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 on the following day unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement") allowing later completion of the journey

There will be a restriction code which sets out the times when travel is not allowed for your particular ticket (see below for how to find this)
These restrictions vary from journey to journey and should be checked each time
There will usually be a morning peak restriction
There may sometimes be an evening peak restriction
There are not usually any restrictions on saturdays, sundays and bank holidays

Restricted times generally refer to times when you cannot depart (for example "not valid before 0930") but sometimes they refer to the times trains arrive at their destination (eg "not valid on trains arriving at London Terminals before 0955")

This information can be found at the national rail website by following the steps below
Unfortunately it is a lengthy process
The example given is for Brighton to London but you can substitute the details of your journey

1) find national rail journey planner national rail journey planner
2) enter origin station (or code if you know it) eg BTN (for BRIGHTON)
3) enter destination station (or code if you know it) eg VIC (for LONDON VICTORIA)
4) select outward journey date and preferred departure time eg TOMORROW 1000
5) for a single journey ensure the return box is unticked
6) click GO
7) select a train and below BUY NOW select "other tickets"
8) if you select BUY NOW you will be transferred to a retail website, so don't do that!
9) to the left click on Super Off-Peak Day Single (or whatever ticket name has appeared in your search)
10) go to the very bottom of the text provided and click on view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected.
11) finally you learn that your restriction code is PB and for outward travel you cannot travel on trains arriving at London Terminals before 1055 on Mondays to Fridays (with one exception).

This is an unbelievably convoluted process which i doubt most users would be able to find for themselves as it is so unintuitive eg you have to select "other tickets" not the one you want!

3) Anytime single

Valid for travel at any time on the date shown on the ticket and the next day (day 2) and until 0429 on the following day (day 3)

All travel must be completed by 0429 on day 3 unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement") allowing later completion of the journey

Example
ticket purchased with travel date Tuesday 01 July 2014
valid to complete journey until 0429 Thursday 03 July 2014


4) Off-peak single (or Super Off-peak single)

Valid for travel at times allowed for Off-peak (or Super Off-peak) tickets on the date shown on the ticket and the next day (day 2) and until 0429 on the following day (day 3)

All travel must be completed by 0429 on day 3 unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement") allowing later completion of the journey

The journey must begin on day 1 (or by 0429 on day 2)

The ticket is not valid to begin the journey after 0429 on day 2 but is valid to complete a journey that has already started

Check whether break of journey is permitted (ie a voluntary interruption to the journey)
If not then the journey can only continue beyond 0429 on day 2 if it could not be completed before

There will be a restriction code which sets out the times when travel is not allowed for your particular ticket (see below for how to find this)
These restrictions vary from journey to journey and should be checked each time
There will usually be a morning peak restriction
There may sometimes be an evening peak restriction
There are not usually any restrictions on saturdays, sundays and bank holidays

Restricted times generally refer to times when you cannot depart from the origin station (for example "not valid before 0930") but sometimes they refer to the times trains arrive at their destination (eg "not valid on trains arriving at London Terminals before 0955")

This information can be found at the national rail website by following these steps
The example given is for London to Darlington but you can substitute the details of your journey

1) find national rail journey planner national rail journey planner2) enter origin station (or code if you know it) eg KGX (for LONDON KINGS CROSS)
3) enter destination station (or code if you know it) eg DAR (for DARLINGTON)
4) select outward journey date and preferred departure time eg TOMORROW 1000
5) for a single journey ensure the return box is unticked
6) click GO
7) select a train and below BUY NOW select "other tickets"
8) if you select BUY NOW you will be transferred to a retail website, so don't do that!
9) to the left click on Super Off-Peak Single (or whatever ticket name has appeared in your search)
10) go to the very bottom of the text provided and click on view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected.
11) finally you learn that your restriction code is 9D and for outward travel (or a single journey) you cannot travel on trains departing London Terminals (except those terminals listed with different times - but this list does not include Kings Cross) after 0259 until 0906 (in other words not between 0300 and 0905 inclusive) or after 1459 until 1859 (1815 on Fridays and Thursdays before bank holidays).

Break of journey is allowed and the time restrictions for day 2 are explained

This is an unbelievably convoluted process which i doubt most users would be able to find for themselves as it is so unintuitive eg you have to select "other tickets" not the one you want!

5) Anytime DAY return

Valid for travel at any time on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 on the following day

All travel must be completed by 0429 unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement")

6) Off-peak DAY return (or Super Off-peak DAY return)

Valid for travel at times allowed for Off-peak (or Super Off-peak) tickets on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 on the following day

All travel must be completed by 0429 on day 2 unless there is a special exception (sometimes referred to as an "easement")

There will be a restriction code which sets out the times when travel is not allowed for your particular ticket
These restrictions vary from journey to journey and should be checked
There will be restrictions that apply to the outward journey
There may be restrictions that apply to the return journey
There are not usually any restrictions on saturdays, sundays and bank holidays

Restricted times generally refer to times when you cannot depart (for example "not valid before 0930") but sometimes they refer to the times trains arrive at their destination (eg "not valid on trains arriving at London Terminals before 0955")

This information can be found at the national rail website by following these steps
The example given is for Cambridge to Norwich but you can substitute the details of your journey

1) find national rail journey planner national rail journey planner
2) enter origin station (or code if you know it) eg CBG (for CAMBRIDGE)
3) enter destination station (or code if you know it) eg NRW (for NORWICH)
4) select outward journey date and preferred departure time eg TOMORROW 1000
5) for a return journey ensure the return box is ticked
6) select return journey time eg TOMORROW 1700
7) click GO
8) select outward and return journeys
10) select "other tickets" below SELECTED to the right of the outward train and choose the ticket you require. In this case its £80.90 off-peak
11) to the left click on Off-peak DAY return (or whatever ticket name has appeared in your search)
10) go to the very bottom of the text provided and click on view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected.
11) finally you learn that your restriction code is B4
outward travel cannot be made before 0845 on Mondays-Fridays (except Bank Holidays)
return travel can be by any train

7) Anytime return

The outward journey does not have to begin on the first day of validity but the outward journey must be completed within 5 days (or by 0429* on the sixth day)

The return journey must be completed within one calendar month (or by 0429* on the following day)

*unless there is a special exception allowing later completion of journey (sometimes referred to as an "easement")

The journey can be broken (ie voluntarily interrupted) any number of times as long as routeing rules are followed
Breaks of journey can be of any duration within the overall expiry limits of the outward and return journeys

Example
ticket purchased for travel on Tuesday 01 July 2014

outward travel must be completed by Saturday 05 July 2014 or 0429 Sunday 06 July 2014
return travel must be completed by Thursday 31 July 2014 or by 0429 Friday 01 August 2014

8) Off-peak return (or Super Off-peak return)

The outward journey must begin on day 1 (or by 0429* on day 2)
The outward journey must be completed by the end of day 2 (or by 0429* on day 3)

The return journey must be completed within one calendar month (or by 0429* on the following day)

*unless there is a special exception allowing later completion of journey (sometimes referred to as an "easement")

The journey can be broken (ie voluntarily interrupted) according to the specific restrictions that apply to your journey
Breaks of journey (where permitted) can be of any duration within the overall expiry limits of the outward and return journeys

Example
ticket purchased for travel on Tuesday 01 July 2014
outward travel must begin the same day or by 0429 Wednesday 02 July 2014
outward travel must be completed by Wednesday 02 July 2014 or 0429 Thursday 03 July 2014
return travel must be completed by Thursday 31 July 2014 or by 0429 Friday 01 August 2014


This information can be found at the national rail website by following these steps
The example given is for London Euston to Glasgow Central but you can substitute the details of your journey

1) find national rail journey planner national rail journey planner2) enter origin station (or code if you know it) eg EUS (for LONDON EUSTON)
3) enter destination station (or code if you know it) eg GLC (for GLASGOW CENTRAL)
4) select outward journey date and preferred departure time eg 01 July at 1000
5) for a return journey ensure the return box is ticked
6) select return journey time eg 08 July at 2300
7) click GO
8) in this case Advance fares may be offered a return ticket click on "return from £130.60"
9) select outward and return journeys
10) select "other tickets" below SELECTED to the right of the outward train and choose the ticket you require. In this case its £130.60 Off-peak
11) to the left click on Off-peak return (or whatever ticket name has appeared in your search)
10) go to the very bottom of the text provided and click on view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected.
11) finally you learn that your restriction code is 5F and the restrictions are:
outward from London Euston not after 0429 until 0905 (Mondays to Fridays except bank holidays)
return from Glasgow Central not arriving at London Euston after 0429 until 1005
(Mondays to Fridays except bank holidays) except that Caledonian Sleepers (which arrive between these times) are allowed (subject to a supplement for a sleeping berth)

Break of journey not allowed on the outward journey (except for the purposes of making connections)

once again this is a very long process to find out what turns out to be a (commendably) simple restriction

General note

Note that return tickets must be used in the correct order - the "outward" journey cannot be undertaken after the "return" journey
If a passenger holds a return ticket from London to Glasgow if the Glasgow to London journey has already been started the London to Glasgow journey is now not valid for travel.

Advance tickets

These tickets are valid on specific trains only and require reservations
Where a connection is necessary on an unreserved train the first available connecting service should be used

 

[yorkie]

These tickets are valid on specific trains only and require reservations
Where a connection is necessary on an unreserved train the first available connecting service should be used

This raises a further question...

Let's say I have an Advance from Aberystwyth to York, with an unreserved service specified in the itinerary from Manchester to York.

I arrive at 2340 and look at an adjacent platform and see a 2346, with plenty of time to board it. Can - or indeed should - I take this "first available" connecting service?

 

[bb21]

What is your audience?

 

[swt_passenger]

Advance tickets

These tickets are valid on specific trains only and require reservations
Where a connection is necessary on an unreserved train the first available connecting service should be used

Should you also mention the situation where the unreserved connection comes before the reserved service?

 

[Emyr]

This raises a further question...

Let's say I have an Advance from Aberystwyth to York, with an unreserved service specified in the itinerary from Manchester to York.

I arrive at 2340 and look at an adjacent platform and see a 2346, with plenty of time to board it. Can - or indeed should - I take this "first available" connecting service?

6 minutes would probably be below the standard connection time at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[OwlMan]

i particularly want to draw attention to how fiendishly difficult it is to find validity codes in NRE

Why not use the National Rail Ticket & Validity Finder it gives details of ticket validity & restriction codes
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

 

[yorkie]

6 minutes would probably be below the standard connection time at Manchester Piccadilly.

...which is why the "first available" train is not provided as part of the itinerary, hence the scenario described occurring

 

[johnnycache]

Why not use the National Rail Ticket & Validity Finder it gives details of ticket validity & restriction codes
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

thats very helpful - i'd never seen it before
but you need to know the restriction code in order to find the specific validity
so you still need to find the restriction code by the long route (don't you?)

Should you also mention the situation where the unreserved connection comes before the reserved service?

yes i should - thank you
thats a bit less clear cut as given the nature of an Advance ticket passengers should be expected to give themselves plenty of time especially if crossing London

 

[OwlMan]

thats very helpful - i'd never seen it before
but you need to know the restriction code in order to find the specific validity
so you still need to find the restriction code by the long route (don't you?)

The new ticket design shows the restriction code (as do some of the old design)

 

[ASharpe]

yes i should - thank you
thats a bit less clear cut as given the nature of an Advance ticket passengers should be expected to give themselves plenty of time especially if crossing London

See the linked post for details on how much time travellers are required to allow.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1315636

 

[RJ]

this is the article that i have written which incorporated the information you helped me with

i particularly want to draw attention to how fiendishly difficult it is to find validity codes in NRE

Obfuscation is the word for it. It will be easier for staff and passengers alike when the new ticket design is rolled out nationwide, as they show a simple URL which contains the restriction information.

The new ticket design shows the restriction code (as do some of the old design)

Indeed - it's shown underneath the price on these tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed - it's shown underneath the price on these tickets.

Kent - South Yorkshire ticket sales must have gone through the roof recently!

I don't like the restriction code on the old design - it only helps people who know what it's for, most passengers would be none the wiser.

But on the new design, as you say it's very clear indeed, which makes it easier to manage accusations by poorly-trained gateline staff.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Travelcards don't show the restriction code - relevant only for Out-Boundary Travelcards of course. I suppose a change to that needs some agreement with the non-National Rail operators that the Travelcard is valid on.

 

[hassaanhc]

I don't like the restriction code on the old design - it only helps people who know what it's for, most passengers would be none the wiser.

But on the new design, as you say it's very clear indeed, which makes it easier to manage accusations by poorly-trained gateline staff.

That bit I would agree with, it is quite small and unless you specifically know it is the restriction code you'd be left stumped over what that little random "B1" [*] is for, one would probably think it is some office-use stuff (I actually used to think that )

* Other codes available!

 

[thebigcheese]

Indeed - it's shown underneath the price on these tickets.

That's some price

 

[johnnycache]

What is your audience?

miscellaneous twitter followers - from TOC managing directors to passengers

The new ticket design shows the restriction code (as do some of the old design)

you still need to have a ticket in order to know the restriction code
as far as i can tell if you are starting from scratch there is no easy way to understand the validity of what you are thinking of buying!

 

[SansPareil]

Indeed - it's shown underneath the price on these tickets.

If you don't mind me asking, why are those tickets so cheap? (And how can I get some, I need to go to Sheffield at the end of June.)

 

[bb21]

If you don't mind me asking, why are those tickets so cheap? (And how can I get some, I need to go to Sheffield at the end of June.)

It was a pricing error and you can no longer get them. The error was fixed a few weeks ago.

 

[SansPareil]

It was a pricing error and you can no longer get them. The error was fixed a few weeks ago.

Thanks. Just out of interest, how long did the error exist for?

 

[yorkie]

About a week. However, only a very small number of the tickets were sold, when you consider that if word got out, thousands would have been sold. So a very lucky escape for EMT.

 

[Merseysider]

you still need to have a ticket in order to know the restriction code
as far as i can tell if you are starting from scratch there is no easy way to understand the validity of what you are thinking of buying!

By going on NRE and inputting the details of your journey, you can find the restriction code rather easily. When itineraries are returned, click on "Other tickets" which appears underneath "Buy now".

Then click on the ticket type that appears in the yellow area and scroll to the bottom of the page that loads. You will find a few tickets where the information is missing from this page and brfares can provide this information instead.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed - it's shown underneath the price on these tickets.

At that price I'm surprised the restriction code isn't RJ!

 

[johnnycache]

By going on NRE and inputting the details of your journey, you can find the restriction code rather easily. When itineraries are returned, click on "Other tickets" which appears underneath "Buy now".

Then click on the ticket type that appears in the yellow area and scroll to the bottom of the page that loads. You will find a few tickets where the information is missing from this page and brfares can provide this information instead.

Thanks - i think that was the method i described in my article. However its bizarre (in my opinion) to expect someone to click on "other tickets" (ie not the ticket they are asking about) and then to scroll down tons of text just to find a link to a restriction code