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Validity - not via London

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bakerstreet

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Just wanted to check everyone's thinking on this.

(this is about convenience and an errand in this instance rather than any particular money saving wheeze)

The general principle please - but example below

Origin - A National Rail orange ticket is available from an origin.

There are a few routes available including

1. +Any Permitted, which goes into London zone 1 then out from a terminal station

2. Not via London

Can the not via London be used as per the +Any Permitted route as far as but not into the Zone 1 boundary, via direct train - then staying in Zone 2 using something like the overground via the shortest route possible. to connect again with the route which left the London terminal

E.g. - Radlett to Wolverhampton
+Any permitted could be used to Zone 1 St Pancras then tube to Euston then out

Could not via London be used Radlett to West Hampstead Thameslink then West Hampstead to Willesden, Willesden to Watford J then north to Wolverhampton.

I can't see a logical reason why not but retailing sites will only offer one route going north in the wrong direction for me.

Can anyone quote the rule which says I can or I can't ?

Supplementary - if the answer is no I can't use the not via London in this way ... can I combine the above not via London ticket with a Radlett 2-6 travelcard and do the above.

Does it have to be a season or can it be a day travelcard under the new rules?

Thanks






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jopsuk

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I don't know about the exact definition of "London" for "Not London" routing. However I'm not sure your workaround would be valid as if the Not London routing essentially isn't valid by your suggested route, then once you pass Watford you're not on a valid route between your origin and destination?

Though does a "Not London" even exist for this journey?
 
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bakerstreet

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Thanks jopsuk. Yes a not via London does exist together with the +Any permitted.
My thinking was that the not via London should be valid in the same way as the +any permitted is valid except not into a London terminal.
I am more familiar with tickets from the south which offer not via London and +any permitted. These can go in the same direction as any permitted i.e. Towards London and then out so long as you don't go north beyond Clapham into zone 1 but they can also be used south as well.


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maniacmartin

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Validity is calculated in The same way as any other ticket. It is valid if it is a mapped route, the shortest route or there is an easement allowing it. It's not clear whether for permitted combination 'LONDON' you can combine mapped routes to and from London if there is a common station to switch maps that is not a London terminal, and which produces a whole route that doesn't go via a London terminal*, but there have been threads on that in the past on this forum.

You can't just find a permitted route via London and just chop the middle out though as you suggest - the whole end to end route must be permitted in its own right.

* there is some debate as to whether London in the route field refers to London terminals or the London Routeing group but it doesn't make any difference in most cases to the outcome.
 
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MikeWh

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Supplementary - if the answer is no I can't use the not via London in this way ... can I combine the above not via London ticket with a Radlett 2-6 travelcard and do the above.

Does it have to be a season or can it be a day travelcard under the new rules?

Regardless of the answers to any other questions, you can't buy day travelcards which don't include zone 1.
 

Paul Kelly

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Can the not via London be used as per the +Any Permitted route as far as but not into the Zone 1 boundary, via direct train - then staying in Zone 2 using something like the overground via the shortest route possible. to connect again with the route which left the London terminal

E.g. - Radlett to Wolverhampton
+Any permitted could be used to Zone 1 St Pancras then tube to Euston then out

Could not via London be used Radlett to West Hampstead Thameslink then West Hampstead to Willesden, Willesden to Watford J then north to Wolverhampton.

I can't see a logical reason why not
Your journey needs to be on a permitted route. On a "NOT VIA LONDON" ticket, you could go via St Albans (walking between the two stations) and Watford Junction, or via Leicester and Birmingham. Your route via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction is not permitted but I can see no real reason why it shouldn't be - you could ask ATOC about it, or attempt to use it and invoke the disputed route procedure if challenged.
 

Starmill

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Having said that, this particular route from Radlett to Wolverhampton does avoid London and seems totally reasonable to me.
 
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