Validity of West Ealing to High Wycombe route Via Greenford

[Muzer]

I was curious about the rerouted Chiltern "parliamentary" (or not; let's not get into that argument!) with regards to fares etc.

For the South Ruislip-West Ealing run it seems obvious to me that Oyster/Contactless is the best fare.

However, when I was looking for West Ealing-High Wycombe, I found this fare with route Via Greenford.

I wasn't aware of any particular general interavailability between Greenford and West Ruislip on the Central Line (do correct me if I've missed something here!), and there's no "Maltese Cross" or anything similar on this fare. So, for all intents and purposes, Greenford is a "dead end" for the National Rail network. So what on earth is the intended route here? What route(s) (if any) is it actually valid on? From what I can tell it wouldn't even be technically valid on the "parliamentary" because that avoids Greenford station!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was curious about the rerouted Chiltern "parliamentary" (or not; let's not get into that argument!) with regards to fares etc.

For the South Ruislip-West Ealing run it seems obvious to me that Oyster/Contactless is the best fare.

However, when I was looking for West Ealing-High Wycombe, I found this fare with route Via Greenford.

I wasn't aware of any particular general interavailability between Greenford and West Ruislip on the Central Line (do correct me if I've missed something here!), and there's no "Maltese Cross" or anything similar on this fare. So, for all intents and purposes, Greenford is a "dead end" for the National Rail network. So what on earth is the intended route here? What route(s) (if any) is it actually valid on? From what I can tell it wouldn't even be technically valid on the "parliamentary" because that avoids Greenford station!

A Maltese Cross merely indicates that a ticket is encoded to be valid for a cross-London transfer by Underground or DLR. It doesn't mean that it is actually valid that way legally speaking, nor does the absence mean that a transfer cannot be permitted. Its only definitive use is in determining whether or not it a ticket will open Underground barriers!

Other versions of the route code for 'via Greenford' suggest that it is actually 'via Greenford (Underground)', which then makes a great deal more sense. In any case, I would be highly surprised if you would have any problems using this ticket on the Chiltern service.

It doesn't seem possible to purchase this ticket on most booking systems - of course you could buy it at a ticket office or on a TVM. However, one or two booking engines pass the route via Greenford with the 'via Greenford' fare, with Underground itineraries (and refusing to allow travel on the Chiltern service!).

 

[Muzer]

A Maltese Cross merely indicates that a ticket is encoded to be valid for a cross-London transfer by Underground or DLR. It doesn't mean that it is actually valid that way legally speaking, nor does the absence mean that a transfer cannot be permitted. Its only definitive use is in determining whether or not it a ticket will open Underground barriers!

Yes, apologies, I did know this. But the rules for deciding whether it's actually valid or not on the underground are basically "is it a cross-London transfer? Is it an interavailable route?". The answer to the former (at least in the context of the route I'm talking about) is almost certainly "no", and I wasn't aware of interavailability for the latter.

If the route is actually supposed to be rendered as "Via Greenford (Und)" then that would indeed make a lot more sense. I believe there is interavailability there with that route.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

This one is a bit of a mystery even to those who might be expected to know. The general view is that the arrangement predates the withdrawal of British Railways services between Greenford and South Ruislip, with ticket acceptance transferring to the Central line from that time as that's the only logical route, though nothing seems to be written down. Formal interavailability does exist between South and West Ruislip.

 

[Mojo]

Formal interavailability does exist between South and West Ruislip.

And NR Season tickets (ie. not single/return fares) valid between South Ruislip and London Terminals are valid additionally at Greenford and Northolt stations only. Not that this helps the OP though.

 

[Muzer]

I should say actually that this is just a hypothetical curiosity which came up while looking at it. When I eventually get round to doing this particular train I'll probably still have my travelcard, so it'll just be a case of Boundary Zone 6 - High Wycombe...

 

[OwlMan]

There are 6 routeings which in their full name include (und), but in the CCST (credit Card sized ticket) description do not.
00004 VIA BLACKHORS RD - VIA BLACKHORSE ROAD (UND)
00006 VIA TOTTENHM HLE - VIA TOTTENHM HALE (UND)
00008 VIA WEST HAM - VIA WEST HAM (UND)
00206 VIA HIGHBURY & I - VIA HIGHBURY & ISLINGTON (UND)
00811 EALING CM/W ACTN - EALING COMMON OR WEST ACTON (UND)
00813 VIA GREENFORD - VIA GREENFORD (UND)

 

[RJ]

There were (or maybe still are) some interesting tickets in this part of the world. Last time I looked a few years ago, there were fares to Greenford via Greenford and a few CDRs with the hallowed A1 time restriction. I'm fairly sure that before the 2013 St Albansgate prompted change to the Routeing Guide, Greenford to Ruislip was shown as a mapped route, suggesting the tickets might have been valid on the Underground.

Looking at the Greenford to Denham flow, it appears there's still quite an interesting pricing structure for the various routes available.

 

[MichaelAMW]

There were (or maybe still are) some interesting tickets in this part of the world. Last time I looked a few years ago, there were fares to Greenford via Greenford and a few CDRs with the hallowed A1 time restriction. I'm fairly sure that before the 2013 St Albansgate prompted change to the Routeing Guide, Greenford to Ruislip was shown as a mapped route, suggesting the tickets might have been valid on the Underground.

Looking at the Greenford to Denham flow, it appears there's still quite an interesting pricing structure for the various routes available.

You are right - see picture below from 2011.

Do you understand those fares? The "via Greenford" option is more expensive than London, which is particularly odd if we assume London is valid that way. The "Any permitted" set by GWR seems to be the one valid via the Central Line.

 

[MichaelAMW]

This one is a bit of a mystery even to those who might be expected to know. The general view is that the arrangement predates the withdrawal of British Railways services between Greenford and South Ruislip, with ticket acceptance transferring to the Central line from that time as that's the only logical route, though nothing seems to be written down. Formal interavailability does exist between South and West Ruislip.

This ticket from the archive gives some clue as to what people thought was acceptable back in the Good Old Days.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Lo and behold, an update to the Routeing Guide Easements on Wednesday 12th includes two new fare route easements (700831 and 700832) permitting travel on the new 'parliamentary' service on tickets routed 'via London' or 'via Greenford (Und)'. Praise where praise is due, there, for an impressively quick fix (though of course a properly organised TOC planning team would have asked the fares team to check that there aren't any issues caused by the Parliamentary service!).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This ticket from the archive gives some clue as to what people thought was acceptable back in the Good Old Days.

View attachment 56636

The printed fare of £22.30 seems ridiculously expensive for the era - even nowadays an Anytime Day Return from High Wycombe to London costs 'just' £27.50, and an Off-Peak Return £23.90. What's going on there?

 

[Mag_seven]

Lo and behold, an update to the Routeing Guide Easements on Wednesday 12th includes two new fare route easements (700831 and 700832) permitting travel on the new 'parliamentary' service on tickets routed 'via London' or 'via Greenford (Und)'. Praise where praise is due, there, for an impressively quick fix (though of course a properly organised TOC planning team would have asked the fares team to check that there aren't any issues caused by the Parliamentary service!).

Seems to have happened while Geoff Marshall ( @geofftech on this forum) was on this service - see section from 9m00s to 9m30s !!!

 

[liam456]

The printed fare of £22.30 seems ridiculously expensive for the era - even nowadays an Anytime Day Return from High Wycombe to London costs 'just' £27.50, and an Off-Peak Return £23.90. What's going on there?

Looking at the bottom left of the picture, I'm guessing its a three-month season ticket?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Looking at the bottom left of the picture, I'm guessing its a three-month season ticket?

Ah, I thought it was the equivalent of what came before a Saver Return, as I think that those were valid for three months in the past. Season ticket makes a lot more sense from a price perspective, though it does show an incredible level of price increase far beyond inflation - a three-month Priv season ticket on that line now costs £256.05, and £22.30 adjusted for inflation is £81.26. So over a threefold real-terms increase - although has the Priv discount percentage changed?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Ah, I thought it was the equivalent of what came before a Saver Return, as I think that those were valid for three months in the past. Season ticket makes a lot more sense from a price perspective, though it does show an incredible level of price increase far beyond inflation - a three-month Priv season ticket on that line now costs £256.05, and £22.30 adjusted for inflation is £81.26. So over a threefold real-terms increase - although has the Priv discount percentage changed?

Might be something to do with free mileage? I wasn't around in that era, so don't know what the free mileage would have been then

 

[lightbulb]

Might be something to do with free mileage? I wasn't around in that era, so don't know what the free mileage would have been then

Free mileage when I worked for BR in the late 80s and early 90s was 40 miles.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Free mileage when I worked for BR in the late 80s and early 90s was 40 miles.

High Wycombe to London Marylebone is just under 28 miles, so surely it ought to be free then!

 

[lightbulb]

High Wycombe to London Marylebone is just under 28 miles, so surely it ought to be free then!

To avoid confusion, the 40 mile rule only applied to the residential pass, and not the priv. I came just under the 40 mile allowance, so I don't know whether I would have had to have a Priv Season to cover the excess distance.

 

[Andrew1395]

The 40 miles was an extension brought in by Network South East in about 1988 as the BRB HQ froze London Weighting payments, and in response the 14 miles free mileage was extended to 40 free with priv rates applying to any residential travel beyond that.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Ah, I thought it was the equivalent of what came before a Saver Return, as I think that those were valid for three months in the past. Season ticket makes a lot more sense from a price perspective, though it does show an incredible level of price increase far beyond inflation - a three-month Priv season ticket on that line now costs £256.05, and £22.30 adjusted for inflation is £81.26. So over a threefold real-terms increase - although has the Priv discount percentage changed?

That ticket was just one I picked up - nothing to do with me personally. I don't think Savers were valid for more than a month at any stage but you do make a good point, that the ticket in question doesn't actually say it's a season. I suppose you just had to know what their format was.