Validity via Leicester

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robbeech

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Hi guys. Just trying to work out routeing on a journey I would like to do tomorrow.
I would like to go from Whitwell (WWL) to Lowestoft (LWT). I'd like however to go via Leicester on the return journey and stay overnight there.

I seem to be able to buy a ticket to Norwich via Leicester (change at Nottingham, Leicester, Peterbough) but not to Lowestoft even though I'd pick up the same trains and change again at Norwich.

Is this still a value route given it is just an extension of the train to Norwich?

If you ignore the 'via' it appears to be the same price to either Norwich or Lowestoft.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Assuming via Leicester is not the shortest route (I cannot see how it can be) and there are no direct trains via Leicester, we are left with Routeing Points and Maps.

Whitwell has Associated Routed Points of Nottingham Group and Worksop.

Norwich is a Routeing Point

Lowestoft has Associated Routeing Points of Norwich and Ipswich.

A fares check (NFM64) reveals that on the Norwich ticket, we use Worksop/Nottingham to Norwich, whilst on the Lowestoft ticket we use Worksop to Norwich/Ipswich

As you might now have already guessed, the Routeing Maps allow via Leicester on the routes from Nottingham, but not from Worksop.
 
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CyrusWuff

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Looking at the Routeing Guide, possible routeing points for Whitwell are Nottingham Group (Attenborough, Beeston and Nottingham) and Worksop; and those for Lowestoft are Ipswich and Norwich.

Doing a fares check, all of them are "appropriate" using current fares (through fare is £62.00 for an Anytime Single, that from Nottingham is £60.70, and from Worksop is also £62.00; and both Ipswich and Norwich back to Whitell are £62.00), so unless there's an "Easement" preventing it, I can't see any reason why a break of journey at Leicester wouldn't be valid, as Nottingham - Leicester - Peterborough - Norwich is a mapped route.

It should be noted, however, that Nottingham Group fails the fares check if you use NFM64 fares...but EMT (who set the fares from Nottingham) and East Coast (who set the fares from Whitwell) have increased the Anytime fares at different rates, hence the anomaly.
 
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bb21

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The world would have gone mad if you run into problems doing what you proposed.
 

sheff1

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I am confused by the references to NFM64 fares. According to the National Routeing Guide that manual dates from September 1996, but Whitwell station was not open then. How can there be fares from a station which did not exist ?
 

AlterEgo

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I am confused by the references to NFM64 fares. According to the National Routeing Guide that manual dates from September 1996, but Whitwell station was not open then. How can there be fares from a station which did not exist ?

Fares get backdated accounting for RPI (or is it CPI?).
 

kieron

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As you might now have already guessed, the Routeing Maps allow via Leicester on the routes from Nottingham, but not from Worksop.
The maps themselves don't (I haven't found anything to support the contention that you can double back through Syston on the way, and there's no route on either map via Kettering and Corby), but journey planners may implement the maps in a way which allows it.
I am confused by the references to NFM64 fares. According to the National Routeing Guide that manual dates from September 1996, but Whitwell station was not open then. How can there be fares from a station which did not exist ?
A number of stations have been opened since 1996. When carrying out fare checks involving some or all of these, ATOC's routeing point calculator actually looks for fares to and from another station. In this case, the fare it assigns for Whitwell-Lowestoft is the same as the one assigned to Worksop-Lowestoft.
 

robbeech

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Well we shall ha e to wait until another time now anyway as a last minute change of plans meant I never went. It also means I will likely pop to Leicester tomorrow in the car so it does make the whole thing a little bit pointless but it's good to know for future reference.

I'm fairly convinced if I had made my journey as planned today I likely wouldn't have got home anyway, Leicester might have been doable.
 

lyndhurst25

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Looking at the Routeing Guide, possible routeing points for Whitwell are Nottingham Group (Attenborough, Beeston and Nottingham) and Worksop; and those for Lowestoft are Ipswich and Norwich.

Doing a fares check, all of them are "appropriate" using current fares (through fare is £62.00 for an Anytime Single, that from Nottingham is £60.70, and from Worksop is also £62.00; and both Ipswich and Norwich back to Whitell are £62.00), so unless there's an "Easement" preventing it, I can't see any reason why a break of journey at Leicester wouldn't be valid, as Nottingham - Leicester - Peterborough - Norwich is a mapped route.

It should be noted, however, that Nottingham Group fails the fares check if you use NFM64 fares...but EMT (who set the fares from Nottingham) and East Coast (who set the fares from Whitwell) have increased the Anytime fares at different rates, hence the anomaly.

Are you saying that current fares can be used for a fares check? I was under the impression that only NFM64 fares counted?
 

SickyNicky

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Are you saying that current fares can be used for a fares check? I was under the impression that only NFM64 fares counted?

It used to be the case that you could use current fares, but the rules have been changed and you must now use the NFM64 fares from just prior to privatisation.
 

CyrusWuff

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Are you saying that current fares can be used for a fares check? I was under the impression that only NFM64 fares counted?

That's what I've always been told, given most staff don't have access to NFM64 fares...Ticket Issuing Systems, however, do use NFM64 fares. Most of the time it isn't an issue, but there are always "edge" cases like this example.

In my experience, however, most Ticket Examiners (regardless of actual job title) still use the principle of "reasonable" routes, given there hasn't been a paper copy of the Routeing Guide issued since 1997.

As long as you're not trying to do something totally outrageous like Finsbury Park - Liverpool Street via Cambridge on a Finsbury Park - London Terminals ticket (which was a mapped route in the original NRG, resolved by splitting the map in two), you'll usually be given the benefit of the doubt.
 
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