Value for money in refund of Annual Travelcard when there are only 3 months validity remaining

[VauxhallandI]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/season-ticket-refund.202186

Advice please.

I have just submitted my refund application to GA for my paper point to point ticket which was pretty simple.

I am now investigating my girlfriend’s season ticket which is different to mine.

On investigation she has a season ticket on an Oyster with Cheshunt London 1-6 zones written on a Gold Record Card.

Cost £3,300

Issued 17th July 2019

She is concerned due to a previous occasion that she won’t see value in the refund.

Can anyone allay her concerns please?

I forgot to add she bought it at Victoria station. Would it be a TfL ticket and TfL refund?

 

[717001]

South Eastern now have a refund calculator on their website: https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/get-in-touch/coronavirus-refund-information.

GTR websites say they will be adding one but, presumably the South Eastern one should work ok for any Network Rail Annual tickets. It's giving me an answer very close to the one I had calculated using info in previous posts here (for which, thanks!), but doesn't need a spreadsheet.

Also GN/TL answers on Twitter suggest keeping image sizes below 1MB when submitting their new online form (linked from https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/t...y/coronavirus-information/coronavirus-refunds) and not to expect an automated email confirming that the refund request has been submitted.

 

[island]

Advice please.

I have just submitted my refund application to GA for my paper point to point ticket which was pretty simple.

I am now investigating my girlfriend’s season ticket which is different to mine.

On investigation she has a season ticket on an Oyster with Cheshunt London 1-6 zones written on a Gold Record Card.

Cost £3,300

Issued 17th July 2019

She is concerned due to a previous occasion that she won’t see value in the refund.

Can anyone allay her concerns please?

I forgot to add she bought it at Victoria station. Would it be a TfL ticket and TfL refund?

What do you mean by “due to a previous occasion”?

Was the ticket bought from Southern or TfL?

 

[VauxhallandI]

What do you mean by “due to a previous occasion”?

Was the ticket bought from Southern or TfL?

Due to a previous refund where she thought the value returned wasn’t value for money. No more detail was offered.

I imagine the concern is that the time off that claimed for will be soaked up by the “free months” in the season ticket and that just keeping it would be better value.

It was purchased from the ticket offices on the concourse

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand how a refund can be described as 'not value for money'?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't understand how a refund can be described as 'not value for money'?

I'd hazard a guess that it's related to Annual season tickets being charged at 40 times the Weekly (or Base) rate rather than 12 times the monthly rate, so the refund isn't pro rata.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'd hazard a guess that it's related to Annual season tickets being charged at 40 times the Weekly (or Base) rate rather than 12 times the monthly rate, so the refund isn't pro rata.

Yep, I’m sure there has been many threads on it. Otherwise why would everyone be asking about refund calculators etc.

I’m not being difficult; I was looking for advice to help her see the maths and be ok with applying for a refund and from where.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I’m not being difficult; I was looking for advice to help her see the maths and be ok with applying for a refund and from where.

To answer that one, if it was bought from the Ticket Office then the refund would need to be applied for through Southern. If it was bought from the Visitor Centre, then it'd be from TfL.

Using the Refund Calculator linked upthread, if the refund was backdated to 17th March (which is as far back as TOCs are going), she'd get about £745 back if it was bought from Southern. I believe TfL work refunds out slightly differently for tickets they've issued, but don't have the details to hand.

If she were to then buy a new ticket later in the year, it'd be at the current rate of £84.80 a Week (£325.70 a month, £3392 for the Annual).

 

[VauxhallandI]

I don't understand how a refund can be described as 'not value for money'?

From Southern’s website

Refunds are calculated as the difference between the cost of your season ticket and what it would have cost you to make the journey daily without the season ticket. This means that towards the expiry of the season ticket, there comes a point when it will no longer have been cheaper to travel using a shorter duration ticket and therefore no refund is due.

 

[Starmill]

From Southern’s website

Refunds are calculated as the difference between the cost of your season ticket and what it would have cost you to make the journey daily without the season ticket. This means that towards the expiry of the season ticket, there comes a point when it will no longer have been cheaper to travel using a shorter duration ticket and therefore no refund is due.

I don't see what that has to do with 'value for money' of a refund?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well I’ve manage to connect her concern with the explanation above so I’m quite happy.

 

[gtat]

This may be a stupid question, but if season ticket refunds are calculated on a 40 week rather than 52 week basis, does that mean we need to not be using a season ticket for 12 weeks to make it worthwhile getting a refund? (On the assumption I will need to buy a new one once I start commuting again).

 

[island]

This may be a stupid question, but if season ticket refunds are calculated on a 40 week rather than 52 week basis, does that mean we need to not be using a season ticket for 12 weeks to make it worthwhile getting a refund? (On the assumption I will need to buy a new one once I start commuting again).

An annual ticket is the same price as 40 weeks and also the same price as ten months and 13 days, weekly tickets being a higher rate.

 

[Starmill]

Well I’ve manage to connect her concern with the explanation above so I’m quite happy.

If you refund an Annual Season ticket, the unit price increases retroactively, because you bought fewer units in total. I would have thought that were obvious. There is no way around it if making a changeover doesn't help.

 

[VauxhallandI]

If you refund an Annual Season ticket, the unit price increases retroactively, because you bought fewer units in total. I would have thought that were obvious. There is no way around it if making a changeover doesn't help.

Thank you for condescending both us, I will let you call her and explain it.

 

[Starmill]

Thank you for condescending both us, I will let you call her and explain it.

If you're going to request advice which you decline to comprehensively explain the circumstances of, and then when you receive reasonable responses you tell people that you don't want any advice after all, sadly I'm not particularly surprised that you go on to misinterpret that as condescension.

 

[island]

If you're going to request advice which you decline to comprehensively explain the circumstances of, and then when you receive reasonable responses you tell people that you don't want any advice after all, sadly I'm not particularly surprised that you go on to misinterpret that as condescension.

Quite.

I am more than happy to take you up on the request to call your wife and explain it to her directly if you would like to PM me a number on which she may be reached.

 

[VauxhallandI]

If you're going to request advice which you decline to comprehensively explain the circumstances of, and then when you receive reasonable responses you tell people that you don't want any advice after all, sadly I'm not particularly surprised that you go on to misinterpret that as condescension.

I explained it was her perception of a lack of value when activating a refund.

There is nothing more to comprehensively explain about a third party perception.

I think it’s quite reasonable for a non train person to assume you pay £100 for twelve months, use it for ten and expect £20 back. I know this isn’t the case and that in fact you might get £5 back may be perceived as better value to keep the ticket as you may need it again in week 50.

You’ve made assumptions on the knowledge of the recipient therefore I’m not surprised you go on to misinterpret the way in which you communicate with other people.

These aren’t great times and I could do without this.

I’m still not clear on how it’s worked out and why TfL get to have a different way of calculating the amount even though the product held in the pocket is the same.

I’ve discovered the ticket was bought from Southern so we have the refund amount in mind, I will let her know.

End of the matter.

 

[Haywain]

I’m still not clear on how it’s worked out

A season refund is calculated as the difference between the price paid for the season and the price of a season ticket to cover the period in which the season has been used. All priced at the prevailing rate at the time the original season was purchased. Where the season to be refunded has been used for less than one month the usage will be based on the price of weekly and/or day tickets to give the lowest total price if cheaper than the monthly. Hope this helps.

 

[Paul Kelly]

This may be a stupid question, but if season ticket refunds are calculated on a 40 week rather than 52 week basis, does that mean we need to not be using a season ticket for 12 weeks to make it worthwhile getting a refund?

Not a stupid question but also not quite the right answer - although the price of an annual season is calculated at 40 times the weekly price, that price actually covers about 45 weeks, before you get to the stage that you're not paying any extra for more validity.

So the number of weeks you need to "not be using it for" is approximately 7, rather than 12. I have recently written a blog post about value-for-money on season ticket refunds that touches on this: https://blog.brfares.com/2020/03/31/bigger-refund-season-ticket/

 

[island]

I’m still not clear on how it’s worked out and why TfL get to have a different way of calculating the amount

Perhaps one final explanation will help, sacrificing precision for clarity.

An annual season ticket is priced such that you pay for 315 days and get the remaining 51 days free. The 51 free days come at the end of the ticket. So if you cancel the ticket part way through, they refund you for the rest of the 315 days that you didn’t use. The 51 free days are lost.

As such, if you use the ticket for 240 days and so it has 126 days left when you surrender it, you’ll only get repaid for 75 of those days, because the last 51 days were free. 75 is a tad under a quarter of 316 and you indeed wind up with around a quarter of the £3,300 season ticket price coming back to you.

 

[gtat]

Not a stupid question but also not quite the right answer - although the price of an annual season is calculated at 40 times the weekly price, that price actually covers about 45 weeks, before you get to the stage that you're not paying any extra for more validity.

So the number of weeks you need to "not be using it for" is approximately 7, rather than 12. I have recently written a blog post about value-for-money on season ticket refunds that touches on this: https://blog.brfares.com/2020/03/31/bigger-refund-season-ticket/

Hi Paul - this is useful, thank you. Given it appears we will be in lockdown for at least another three weeks, and I can backdate the refund to 17th March, then I calculate that to be just over 7 weeks in total. So a refund will be worthwhile. Thanks for your advice.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Perhaps one final explanation will help, sacrificing precision for clarity.

An annual season ticket is priced such that you pay for 315 days and get the remaining 51 days free. The 51 free days come at the end of the ticket. So if you cancel the ticket part way through, they refund you for the rest of the 315 days that you didn’t use. The 51 free days are lost.

As such, if you use the ticket for 240 days and so it has 126 days left when you surrender it, you’ll only get repaid for 75 of those days, because the last 51 days were free. 75 is a tad under a quarter of 316 and you indeed wind up with around a quarter of the £3,300 season ticket price coming back to you.

Now that makes sense thank you very much.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is a changeover to an inexpensive short distance season ticket possible and/or been considered. Sometimes this can generate a greater refund value than simply handing the original season ticket back for cancellation.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is a changeover to an inexpensive short distance season ticket possible and/or been considered. Sometimes this can generate a greater refund value than simply handing the original season ticket back for cancellation.

The problem with changeovers is that they can only be processed through a ticket issuing system, given the requirement to issue a new ticket as part of the process. This rather precludes them from being done remotely, unlike a refund, and TOCs shouldn't really be encouraging people to go to Ticket Offices for something that isn't regarded as essential.

 

[infobleep]

The problem with changeovers is that they can only be processed through a ticket issuing system, given the requirement to issue a new ticket as part of the process. This rather precludes them from being done remotely, unlike a refund, and TOCs shouldn't really be encouraging people to go to Ticket Offices for something that isn't regarded as essential.

But if they are not willing to do the change overs later on and back date them then it will encourage people to go to ticket offices.

I'd like to do a change over so I keep the gold card element, as there are times when I will need to make an essential journey and when doing so would like to get a third off.

Originally I wasn't going to bother doing anything but then the government encouraged people to get refunds and we were told those would be backdated.

 

[VauxhallandI]

To answer that one, if it was bought from the Ticket Office then the refund would need to be applied for through Southern. If it was bought from the Visitor Centre, then it'd be from TfL.

Using the Refund Calculator linked upthread, if the refund was backdated to 17th March (which is as far back as TOCs are going), she'd get about £745 back if it was bought from Southern. I believe TfL work refunds out slightly differently for tickets they've issued, but don't have the details to hand.

If she were to then buy a new ticket later in the year, it'd be at the current rate of £84.80 a Week (£325.70 a month, £3392 for the Annual).

Hi folks,

The Southern site is rather confusing and states that tickets in Oyster should be refunded via TFL, here is their refund matrix

https://www.southernrailway.com/tra...y/coronavirus-information/coronavirus-refunds

I'm sorry I don't know how to do a preview of the above link.

Southern are asking for a form to be printed off and posted for their refund system however if we do this and it is not right then we will miss the refund window for the time left on the season ticket (6 weeks?)

Any thoughts?

 

[VauxhallandI]

UPDATE - The refund has been lodged with TFL